Summer transfer window 2021.

[rigger]

14 minutes ago, Ulrich said:

 

 

You stated ONLY short players are technically gifted. What was quoted was that the BEST technical players are short. Two totally diferent statements.

Edited August 23, 2021 by rigger

[TheRoversReturn]

Really hope that if they are loans coming in, that we have chance of actually making the signing permanent if they work out.

Where do we get with 4-5 loans of Premier league teenagers, just so we can pay loan fees to develop them and pass back the improved products to the big clubs? Back to square one, that's where. Douglas and Trybull might no have worked out, but if they had then there'd have been at least a chance in signing them. Harvey Elliot? Liverpool got the lion's share of that arrangement. 

[TheRoversReturn]

Unless one reckons depriving our OWN young players of opportunities to develop and impress is the way to go...give our own youngsters a chance, FFS.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TheRoversReturn said:

Really hope that if they are loans coming in, that we have chance of actually making the signing permanent if they work out.

Where do we get with 4-5 loans of Premier league teenagers, just so we can pay loan fees to develop them and pass back the improved products to the big clubs? Back to square one, that's where. Douglas and Trybull might no have worked out, but if they had then there'd have been at least a chance in signing them. Harvey Elliot? Liverpool got the lion's share of that arrangement. 

Would you take Trybull back if the wages were right? Given the lack of experience in the squad?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TheRoversReturn said:

Unless one reckons depriving our OWN young players of opportunities to develop and impress is the way to go...give our own youngsters a chance, FFS.

Really baffled me that Dan Pike couldn't get a chance with no RB's fit. I like Carter but surely those where the games to give a proper full-back from the academy a go? Scored a cracker against City the other night.

[TheRoversReturn]

4 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Would you take Trybull back if the wages were right? Given the lack of experience in the squad?

Yes, yes I would. I thought he wasn't bad at all at times. 

Expect his wages were a bit much, though. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by TheRoversReturn

[TheRoversReturn]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

Really baffled me that Dan Pike couldn't get a chance with no RB's fit. I like Carter but surely those where the games to give a proper full-back from the academy a go? Scored a cracker against City the other night.

Wharton had to wait ages...finally, he got a chance and hallelujah he was just fine. As if he wasn't ready until THAT EXACT MOMENT. Nobody's saying lob them in for every minute of every match, but do give them chances to integrate and gel.

Loans have their place, but we've not always got the balance right, it feels. 

[Mercer]

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

WBA big monsters players will suit this league and over power teams but will it work in the PL? Doubtful

You first have to get to the Premier League!!!!

WBA will walk it whilst the height of our ambitions seems to be retention of Championship status.

 

2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Ok, but to say a good big un beats a good small one is wrong.  They aren't particularly big though are they? Mercers argument would mean that the best player would be 6'7" etc   

It isn't - surely if players are of roughly the same ability then you go for the bigger unit, if available, for obvious reasons.

These aren't perfect examples (and not necessarily players of equal ability) but illustrate the point I'm trying to make.

• Full back - Reece James or Gary Neville
• Centre back - Van Dijk or Ben White
• Midfield - Pogba or Alcantara
• Striker - Lukaku or Adam Armstrong

[RoversClitheroe]

7 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Would you take Trybull back if the wages were right? Given the lack of experience in the squad?

Nope, thought he was pretty awful.

[Sparks Rover]

1 minute ago, Mercer said:

You first have to get to the Premier League!!!!

WBA will walk it whilst the height of our ambitions seems to be retention of Championship status.

 

It isn't - surely if players are of roughly the same ability then you go for the bigger unit, if available, for obvious reasons.

These aren't perfect examples (and not necessarily players of equal ability) but illustrate the point I'm trying to make.

• Full back - Reece James or Gary Neville
• Centre back - Van Dijk or Ben White
• Midfield - Pogba or Alcantara
• Striker - Lukaku or Adam Armstrong

Not sure about your last one..😄

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, JoeH said:

How many chances to score has he had at senior level? How can you know he can't finish when he's had 3 and 4 minute appearances at the end of games without the chance to show of that ability.

The only insight we have into whether he can find the net or not is with his youth record, and from what I've seen, finishing isn't a big issue for him. He has the final ball and the final shot to be fine in that area. His issues come elswhere.

I don't know that he can't (or indeed can) finish, or if he has the end product in general, hence my point:

"He obviously could point to a lack of game time to begin with, but his end product is at this stage a mystery really. As with Clarkson, it is essentially a stab in the dark."

Sadly, blind stabs in the dark with kids with minimal first team experience are all we can stretch to at the moment.

Scoring goals in kids football is a different thing altogether. As is scoring goals in training for example.

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

@roversfan99by your logic, Conor McBride needs to be let go from the club because he can't finish, no goals at senior level. Poveda has goals, lots of them, across the national youth teams, his City & Leeds youth teams, the EFL trophy against senior sides too.

Looking at his goals column doesn't in any way reflect his ability to shoot when you look at how much time he's spent on the field and how many actual chances on goal he's had... 

I think you perhaps underestimate the difference between scoring goals in glorified friendlies against kids in games whereby the result is fairly immaterial, to doing so in senior games at Championship level.

A common theme from Leeds fans and what they have commented is that he lacks end product, ultimately like you I would question whether he has had the game time to prove it. He played 341 minutes across 14 appearances according to transfermarkt, so he averaged 24 minutes (not 3 or 4) with only 2 of those being for less than 10 minutes. That being said, its still such a small sample, and its at Premier League level.

This is where the difficulties of comparing players over different competitions comes in and the limitations of stats and highlights come into focus. Pickering came in as supposedly the best left back in League 1, thus far he has struggled with the jump. Conversely, players like Obafemi and Poveda, you are basing it on cameos in the main, and not only that, but at Premier League level, so there is scope for even more leeway. Alternatively, judging a player on kids football is not far off being worthless, McBride would be our main striker if that was the case, as it is, he doesn't make the subs bench.

My personal opinion of the player is based on a few times to which he has played for Leeds when on TV and come on and always looked bright and sharp, but that just shows you what type of player he is, he never did anything substantial in those cameos, but as I said, in 25 minutes in the Premier League, you would expect that. It is a total stab in the dark as to how he will do across the course of a Professional season in the Championship.

13 minutes ago, phili said:

Waggott and Cheston both said 20 months ago we needed to sell Dack to balance the books with FFP and we needed to sell another couple of players to bring new players in. Covid delayed this by 12 months, so he would have known in December at the latest that we needed to sell a couple of players this Summer to do anything.

Knowing this etc, he should have spent cash in January on who he needed to bring in on permanent signings.

FFP is likely to be replaced next season with a  % of turnover on wages of 120% first year, 100% in second year and then from third year onwards of 75%. Breaches will then cost a fine for each % point over these limits. So it will be up to Waggott to boost our revenues quickly.

Why is there an assumption that there was money readily available in January to bring in all of these permanent signings? We made one in Pickering, and loaned a couple of kids again to fill a gap. I doubt Mowbray was sat there on a noticeable budget and chose not to spend it.

[Guest]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

It is a total stab in the dark as to how he will do across the course of a Professional season in the Championship.

Of course. It's also a total stab in the dark to say his issue is his final product. The only evidence of his final product we have is at youth level, which doesn't support that claim.

[RevidgeBlue]

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Would you take Trybull back if the wages were right? Given the lack of experience in the squad?

Absolutely not.

Complete garbage.

[Guest]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Absolutely not.

Complete garbage.

Worry about Johnson being the only experienced midfielder we've got. I suppose the Dack return, if he can stay fit once back, will help a little there.

[RoversClitheroe]

4 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Worry about Johnson being the only experienced midfielder we've got. I suppose the Dack return, if he can stay fit once back, will help a little there.

What does experience actually bring? 

If you have ability you're good enough, only thing experience brings is game management, and with the manager we have, even experience won't help with game management.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RoversClitheroe said:

What does experience actually bring? 

If you have ability you're good enough, only thing experience brings is game management, and with the manager we have, even experience won't help with game management.

Well I just wonder whether at the minute the squads lack of experience will come back to bite us in tight games and away from home. Younger players often lack decision making skills which come from experience. I like Jacob Davenport, but an experienced Johnson is the better man to see out a game IMO.

[JacknOry]

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

What does experience actually bring? 

If you have ability you're good enough, only thing experience brings is game management, and with the manager we have, even experience won't help with game management.

Exactly. I'm not big on bringing in players approaching the end of their careers having failed to achieve what they originally planned. All about the paycheck then. Give me young and hungry players looking to kick on rather than that. 

[1864roverite]

I have to disagree RF99 Mowbray knew which players he was letting go he also knew that Armstrong would be leaving and he also knew which players were not being offered a deal. He is the manager it’s his job to manage hence the job title. He also knew which players were freebies in January and a good manager would have been all over it getting his ducks in a row and at an early stage. Mowbray still hasn’t addressed the defence to an adequate standard despite 4 years. The midfield is another enigma never settled and never the same whilst tactically at time he has been utterly found out. His comments in the media are often ill advised yet he still persists. It’s time he accepted some of the blame portion 

[JacknOry]

Kaminski experienced. You'd have to say Nyambe is now. Lenihan, Ayala. Johnson. We perhaps need an older head in midfield and up[ top - but again, not just another plodder looking for a final contract.

[roversfan99]

14 minutes ago, TheRoversReturn said:

Unless one reckons depriving our OWN young players of opportunities to develop and impress is the way to go...give our own youngsters a chance, FFS.

Even if the loans improve us? Makes no sense.

14 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Would you take Trybull back if the wages were right? Given the lack of experience in the squad?

No good having experience if the player in question is really poor. Although we do need experience.

4 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Of course. It's also a total stab in the dark to say his issue is his final product. The only evidence of his final product we have is at youth level, which doesn't support that claim.

I just think that his end product and indeed any players is unknown until they prove otherwise. The fact that Leeds fans seem to question his decision making (and attitude which is a worry, with Elliott there was never the thought that he was being discarded, Klopp seemed reluctant to let him go, Poveda has just totally fallen out of favour behind other prospects) suggests that maybe there is credence to the suggestion that his end product is lacking, although the sample size of proper evidence is so small.

I think you place too much importance on youth football when judging a potential signing. I understand as there is so little to go off, but it literally is so far removed that it isnt worthwhile evidence.

[Torgeir]

Johnson and Bennett looked like the two least experienced players last season when they came on towards the end. Bennett either ran down the win and lost possession or sent an early cross without address. Johnson will also lose the ball in possession a number of times and doesn't have any pace to win the ball back when we get caught on the break. Davenport is a great player to put on and will continue the fight Travis (and partially Buckley) puts on.

[Ulrich]

39 minutes ago, rigger said:

You stated ONLY short players are technically gifted. What was quoted was that the BEST technical players are short. Two totally diferent statements.

Since we're nitpicking English, it's different not diferent 😉

[Dreams of 1995]

When you are a youth level footballer you play against other youth level players. You are dictated to by your age. You are playing lads of roughly the same physicality and experience as you.

I am glad people at this club don’t have the mentality that judging “kids” football is useless. It really does make you wonder why Sporting bodies across all disciplines bother with youth academies if, at the end of it all, it is completely useless in judging their talents 

A lot of screen space is wasted with this disparaging of youth level football but really the only thing “not far from worthless” is the opinion which disregards any achievement made below senior level 

Whilst not all footballers who did well at youth level turn out to be great players at senior level it does distinguish between the good and bad players. And it certainly can be used to judge whether a player can finish, dribble, tackle, pass etc 

“Kids” football is a right of passage that allows players to improve, adapt and showcase their natural talent. If they are banging in goals regular at that level there’s every chance they have an eye for goal, a good strike and good movement. All of these are basic natural instincts a good striker needs. It’s getting tedious hearing the same argument day after day about “kids” football being totally worthless. It isn’t. And if it was clubs with staff far beyond our knowledge would not spend millions upon millions improving and extending their Academy infrastructure 

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

If it is true, then it is an incredibly restrictive policy. There is no reason why we can't invest even a small proportion of the Armstrong money to buy a replacement, but it would be typical Venkys if they didnt allow the logic of bringing in a replacement who can be then sold on for profit again at a later date.

Well we have to see over the coming seasons but a club of Rovers size cannot keep running at wage to turnover it has over the past seasons can it? 

So we need a proper short term, medium and long term plan from the footballing people at the club

I hope we can invest a few million pounds into a permanent striker signing myself but we have to meet these daft FFP rules(which I never been in favour from moment one as they favour bigger clubs with bigger budgets.) Can't blame Venkys for the FFP rules. 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

s it just me or is everyone else totally unenthused by the prospect of the market that we are working in?

Surely we have to work in whatever market we have? 

We need 4 or 5 signings before the deadline including a permanent striker, wide man, left back and centre back. 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

But we are solely trying to sign kids on loan simply to boost the numbers out of financial necessity, without a base of players with the required experience and ability to build upon. If we for example signed Poveda and Clarkson alongside 3 or 4 permanent additions, even if they were mainly freebies, then that could give us a sprinkling of quality on top. As it is, its just making up the numbers.

These players like Poveda and Clarkson clearly have their ability and talent otherwise they wouldn't be Leeds United and Liverpool would they? 

Who are these quality freebies out there? Can you give me an example of a striker who has the quality we want? Would you want Connor Wickham here? Surely there is a reason why they are still unattached at this stage of the season?

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Mowbray has his arms tied behind his back under an unnecessarily strict budget, he keeps saying that he would like more experience but that we can only afford loans whereby we are giving players experience, even loans of more experienced players or free agents seem beyond our financial grasp, and we do need the quantity as well as the quality. 

More experience PL players who are available are on big wages. What is Ben Davies wages or Matt Clarke wages? spending more money on these expensive wages would mean less signings? 

Also can you expect why it unnecessarily strict budget considering the last 3 years financial backing Mowbray has received in terms of transfers fees and wages? Maybe if Mowbray has been better in the transfer market and use the money more wisely in the first 2 seasons and maybe we wouldn't be in this situation. 

[tomphil]

18 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Absolutely not.

Complete garbage.

Trybull back means possession football back and that's not something i want to see with this young team.

I'm surprised anybody does except the now development based coach who's only interested in individuals.