Summer transfer window 2021.

[Ewood Ace]

18 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Could you answer the question?

I answered it with my first sentence of the reply. If you can't seemingly comprehend it then that's not my problem.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ewood Ace

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I answered it with my first sentence of the reply. If you can't comprehend it then that's not my problem.

My comprehension is fine, I just don't think you've answered the question. What do you think the table is a measurement of, mathematically? Although Andy W has now provided the answer, I find it odd that you would be against something that evidently, you didn't have a full understanding of.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Speaking of questions @JoeHany news on Sheaf and if we're in for him?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Speaking of questions @JoeHany news on Sheaf and if we're in for him?

I know nothing on that. Someone else, who's name I've lost for the 2nd time, posted that rumour originally and there's some stuff in the papers about the Coventry side of that scenario.

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

My comprehension is fine, I just don't think you've answered the question. What do you think the table is a measurement of, mathematically? Although Andy W has now provided the answer, I find it odd that you would be against something that evidently, you didn't have a full understanding of.

I'll try once more to see if I can get through. To quote the person who posted the table it is a table of players' "net positive to the side". As you can see with exhibit A underneath.

 

16 hours ago, AndyW said:

But Buckley is statistically a net positive to the side. 

 

To my mind it is nonsensical that 16 players can be classed as being as having a bigger 'net positive to the side' than Armstrong. It just highlights the nonsense using mathematics and spreadsheets rather than eyes. 

[JBiz]

10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'll try once more to see if I can get through. To quote the person who posted the table it is a table of players' "net positive to the side". As you can see with exhibit A underneath.

 

 

To my mind it is nonsensical that 16 players can be classed as being as having a bigger 'net positive to the side' than Armstrong. It just highlights the nonsense using mathematics and spreadsheets rather than eyes. 

I personally find the results in that sheet perplexing but I would add that Brentford rise has been down to using an analytical model, ergo “mathematics”.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'll try once more to see if I can get through. To quote the person who posted the table it is a table of players' "net positive to the side". As you can see with exhibit A underneath.

 

 

To my mind it is nonsensical that 16 players can be classed as being as having a bigger 'net positive to the side' than Armstrong. It just highlights the nonsense using mathematics and spreadsheets rather than eyes. 

What is it that you interpreted the positives and negatives to mean? The mathematical equation? I Don't think you knew what that equation was at all - or perhaps still don't. It's odd to be so against something that you don't have full knowledge of.

[Guest]

Data in football is already here, you wouldn't believe the ways in which it is already used, going to be used and going to develop further. I really don't know why I keep defending something which doesn't need the help. I'm going to give up. Data has already won the war.

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

What is it that you interpreted the positives and negatives to mean? The mathematical equation? I Don't think you knew what that equation was at all - or perhaps still don't. It's odd to be so against something that you don't have full knowledge of.

Could you be anymore condescending?

[roversfan99]

Data is obviously used in football. That doesnt mean that people cant question it or doubt it, VAR is also used in football, the fact that it is used in football doesnt make it unquestionable.

That doesnt mean that all data is useful or indeed relevant either. It also doesnt guarantee to be of benefit to anyone, it could be used (and often I am sure will be) used out of content, conclusions could be taken that are misleading, there are all sorts of variables.

The key to Brentford's use for example is the people that use it, not the fact that they presumably are so data focused.

[Guest]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

The key to Brentford's use for example is the people that use it, not the fact that they presumably are so data focused.

Disagree here. It's a balance and I don't think the people using it are much more so important than the original focus on data in the first place.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

The key to Brentford's use for example is the people that use it, not the fact that they presumably are so data focused.

How do you think they find the specific staff, the sporting director, the managers, the head of recruitment etc?

Stats and analysis. If only we had a CEO with such modern thinking.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Disagree here. It's a balance and I don't think the people using it are much more so important than the original focus on data in the first place.

Data alone is pretty worthless. Its having savvy people to utilise it that is key, thats when it becomes useful.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

Data is obviously used in football. That doesnt mean that people cant question it or doubt it.

People can question and doubt all they want. Just as I can question and doubt the understanding and knowledge on the topic of those who wish to debate it. I know nothing about nuclear science, so I wouldn't attempt to debate the legitimacy of particular ideas used within that field. Most football fans have a decent grasp on the subject purely because they know the sport extremely well. So there's always going to be more conversation on data science within football than other kinds of science where your average person is less knowledgeable.

Data science in football is still a science, and it's not condescending to suggest that being so insistent in criticism against something you don't have a massive knowledge of is a little odd. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

Data alone is pretty worthless. Its having savvy people to utilise it that is key, thats when it becomes useful.

I don't think data alone is useless. Of course, decisions upon data are made by humans, but nobody is disputing that.

Brentford (and FC Midtjylland - the side in which the Brentford owner first trialled all of his ideas) removed all of their traditionally trained staff and replaced them with young analysts and football data scientists who came from more varied backgrounds. 

 

[tomphil]

20 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Data in football is already here, you wouldn't believe the ways in which it is already used, going to be used and going to develop further. I really don't know why I keep defending something which doesn't need the help. I'm going to give up. Data has already won the war.

Nah, that'll be when it starts predicting the results correctly.

Anyway maybe at Ewood if the team was run soley by spreadsheet without Mowbrays interference we'd be better off. Hard to know who's ###### it up him or the laptop !

[Guest]

Just now, tomphil said:

Nah, that'll be when it starts predicting the results correctly.

Anyway maybe at Ewood if the team was run soley by spreadsheet without Mowbrays interference we'd be better off. Hard to know who's ###### it up him or the laptop !

I think data is there for hindsight in football, to then affect the way you shape up and prepare moving forward. You learn from data, recruit from data.

For me, data in terms of prediction is unattainable.

[Guest]

So much talk of the amazing job Barnsley have done this season, but the success is rooted in a data first approach.

Chien Lee is the founder and chairman of NewCity Capital, a private investment firm that is the biggest shareholder in EFL Championship side Barnsley, and has invested in five European football clubs in total.

"Since we bought Barnsley three years ago we have been heavily using data. We use it mainly to identify talented young players and coaches as well. It is proving very successful."

When Mr Lee took over in December 2017 Barnsley was struggling in the Championship and subsequently relegated, but the club bounced back immediately and returned to the division in his first full season in charge. He credits the use of data as a key contributor to winning promotion.

So what does he look for in the data? "We are looking for players and coaches that play the style that we want, and that is very much a passing game."

But he is very careful about overspending when it comes to players, data systems and analysts.

[tomphil]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I think data is there for hindsight in football, to then affect the way you shape up and prepare moving forward. You learn from data, recruit from data.

For me, data in terms of prediction is unattainable.

So what was the one about predicted goals or whatever it was, i forget the term ?

 

[Ewood Ace]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

So much talk of the amazing job Barnsley have done this season, but the success is rooted in a data first approach.

Chien Lee is the founder and chairman of NewCity Capital, a private investment firm that is the biggest shareholder in EFL Championship side Barnsley, and has invested in five European football clubs in total.

"Since we bought Barnsley three years ago we have been heavily using data. We use it mainly to identify talented young players and coaches as well. It is proving very successful."

When Mr Lee took over in December 2017 Barnsley was struggling in the Championship and subsequently relegated, but the club bounced back immediately and returned to the division in his first full season in charge. He credits the use of data as a key contributor to winning promotion.

So what does he look for in the data? "We are looking for players and coaches that play the style that we want, and that is very much a passing game."

But he is very careful about overspending when it comes to players, data systems and analysts.

He can't have watched his team much if he thinks Barnsley play a passing game they are a very direct side. Not that there is anything wrong with that I'd rather see a side play a bit more direct but when I think about Barnsley 'passing game' certainly isn't the first thing that springs to mind.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, tomphil said:

So what was the one about predicted goals or whatever it was, i forget the term ?

xG isn't about predicting. It's still data to be used in hindsight. Expected goals is past tense. You're trying to see whether a striker is putting in chances that you'd expect them to or not. 

[rigger]

50 minutes ago, JBiz said:

I personally find the results in that sheet perplexing but I would add that Brentford rise has been down to using an analytical model, ergo “mathematics”.

And I thought it was down to winning games. 

[Guest]

Just now, rigger said:

And I thought it was down to winning games. 

The winning is the end result. Data gets you there. Or at least it does for the teams that use it well

[rigger]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

The winning is the end result. Data gets you there. Or at least it does for the teams that use it well

If that is what you think so be it. I think you are talking utter bollocks.

[simongarnerisgod]

6 minutes ago, JoeH said:

The winning is the end result. Data gets you there. Or at least it does for the teams that use it well

iv`e yet to see a laptop score a goal,make a crucial tackle  or save a penalty