Summer transfer window 2021.

[bluebruce]

33 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I don't think data alone is useless. Of course, decisions upon data are made by humans, but nobody is disputing that.

Brentford (and FC Midtjylland - the side in which the Brentford owner first trialled all of his ideas) removed all of their traditionally trained staff and replaced them with young analysts and football data scientists who came from more varied backgrounds. 

 

I believe in the proper use of data in the game but I have to say roversfan99 is entirely right with the statement that data is useless on its own. For starters if it's on its own then nobody is using it so by definition it's useless. But less literally - if the person with all this data at their fingertips doesn't know what they're doing with it, how to interpret it usefully, how some data interacts with other data, which data is relevant and which is misleading...then yes it's useless. In fact it can be counter productive in the wrong hands.

In the right hands, it's very valuable, can save you millions on players and can aid significantly in bringing success.

For one thing, we are supposedly all about data now, but with the dinosaur in charge it hasn't got us anywhere. Meanwhile Barnsley have probably done it right judging by their far greater success with far more limited resources.

[blondie]

On 10/05/2021 at 21:00, Blue blood said:

Data in isolation is of no use, there is nothing better than seeing a player in real time ,, not a concocted video.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by blondie
post rather than reply

[tomphil]

It's basically mini robots creating human bots.

Someone previous mentions it has to be used well and that's the key. It needs blending with all the other factors, just chucking all your eggs in that basket won't result in suddenly being Brentford. 

There's no evidence of the Brentford model here, in fact quite the opposite the possession stats etc approach has contributed to a poor season. I think that was only banded about to try and justify flogging half the training ground.

I still think a good manager who uses the stats for traditional purposes only and uses his budget well. Who knows his system and his players well and has drive and mentality can outperform anything a spreadsheet will try dictate.

[JBiz]

Seems beyond some posters that choosing a manager is done at these clubs, through analysis and interview, with actual “scouting” for coaches / backroom staff. That’s how you get the best organising, training, recruitment and then results.

Do we think our CEO has a potential list of managers lined up? I wish.

[tomphil]

If we recruited or even retained managers on a data only approach analyzing them Tony wouldn't have got a foot through the door.

And he'd certainly have been shunted by now.

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

At least this response admits that you aren't actually aware as to what this table shows. How can you be against something if you don't know what it is?

I have looked.at it and if you think I'm coming to the wrong conclusion fair enough.

Explain how Buckley, Del, Chapman are all.above AA in that league then...👍

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If we recruited or even retained managers on a data only approach analyzing them Tony wouldn't have got a foot through the door.

And he'd certainly have been shunted by now.

That's true

[Guest]

1 hour ago, simongarnerisgod said:

iv`e yet to see a laptop score a goal,make a crucial tackle  or save a penalty

Oh but you have 😉 Every player at Rovers right now is here because of a laptop, or a phone, because of data, maths, physical and digital scouting. In that way, a laptop does get you to your ability to win. Without digital devices, data in football and a plethora of other new innovations being used, we'd be a fourth tier side by now. I think we could be doing it more effectively, most sides could, but hopefully that comes.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I still think a good manager who uses the stats for traditional purposes only and uses his budget well. Who knows his system and his players well and has drive and mentality can outperform anything a spreadsheet will try dictate.

Every club uses data though, even the most traditional coaches are using it every day. From training to match prep, video analysis, recruitment, youth development and loads more.

[Oldgregg86]

I think there’s more than one way to skin a cat. You can money ball and data surf or whateverand it can work for you. You can get one guy to come in and galvanise a group and ride the wave of momentum. You can get a tactical genius etc etc you just need something to work with and others to believe in it. We have the relax and top your pension fund up way. Doesn’t matter how good the coaches are or the computer data is or the academy jack left. If the guys running it don’t care and the manager has openly said he doesn’t then we’re flogging a dead horse. As a side note we should stop calling them the owners . We own our football club.  Shit guardians or custodians would be more apt. They will never own us

Edited June 6, 2021 by Oldgregg86

[roversfan99]

16 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Oh but you have 😉 Every player at Rovers right now is here because of a laptop, or a phone, because of data, maths, physical and digital scouting. In that way, a laptop does get you to your ability to win. Without digital devices, data in football and a plethora of other new innovations being used, we'd be a fourth tier side by now. I think we could be doing it more effectively, most sides could, but hopefully that comes.

Every player? Do you think that Ayala, Gallagher and Johnson were signed based on data?

Also, you are implying that we would be the exception if we didnt use data. Surely the fact that all teams at this level have access to similar data proves that the variable is the people that use it.

[simongarnerisgod]

aynsley pears was`nt signed by data thats for sure😊

[Sparks Rover]

Dolan definitely wasn't.  If his stats were any good surely the nobbers would have kept him....

Who's data is right, Joe? 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Every player? Do you think that Ayala, Gallagher and Johnson were signed based on data?

Also, you are implying that we would be the exception if we didnt use data. Surely the fact that all teams at this level have access to similar data proves that the variable is the people that use it.

The comment was about a laptop.

[Crimpshrine]

1 hour ago, simongarnerisgod said:

aynsley pears was`nt signed by data thats for sure😊

Imagine the disappointment of getting the Aynsley Pears card in a game of Top Trumps!

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

It's a wonder how Kenny and Ray ever won the Prem without a laptop. 🙄

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

Dolan definitely wasn't.  If his stats were any good surely the nobbers would have kept him....

Who's data is right, Joe? 

That was good old fashioned recruitment taking a punt on a young player. Fair play to whoever jumped on that one and got him through the door.

No doubt they did consult some stats but they can't have been that great otherwise nobbers wouldn't have let him go. 

Other side of the coin is both Ayala and Bell were high in certain stats charts this season. Yet they rarely looked the part watching the actual games and didn't seem to gel or benefit the team as a whole on most occasions.

So if stats were used to justify them it just shows how flawed it is, you need the right stats to marry up to your job in the side. Not just a high % of something for the sake of it.

[LDRover]

18 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

Imagine the disappointment of getting the Aynsley Pears card in a game of Top Trumps!

Agility    0

Shot stopping   0

Anticipation     0

Length of contract   10

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, simongarnerisgod said:

aynsley pears was`nt signed by data thats for sure😊

About time there was some data produced on these kind of signings. 

Dot joining data.

[Tom]

As someone who spends a good chunk of their working life on some form of data analysis I will say first and foremost I am often in awe of the presentation and methods used in the analysis, at times it’s the theory I am not fully aligned with

For me there’s a place in football for it but I see it more in a sense of spotting weaknesses in players games and then highlighting where they need to improve. 
 

If I’m going to present anything to our ExCo or HR director then the biggest thing in my mind is the ‘so what?’ I can produce a long deck with lots of figures and stats but there has to be a key message to take away or it’s meaningless.

That’s why I find tables such as the one posted in here recently as detrimental to the ‘reputation’ of data in football, there’s no real takeaway from it but we could infer something from a positional analysis of people in similar roles etc 

So for me, time and a place but it shouldn’t be shoehorned in where it’s not needed and should always be used as a consideration to go with what the eye can see. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Tom

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

.

No doubt they did consult some stats but they can't have been that great otherwise nobbers wouldn't have let him go. 

Are there any stats available like these in the U18s academy league , and PNE isn't a good category, they play teams like Rochdale and Accy...which is where Dolan was playing?  Nobbers own stats probably not available to us.  I may be wrong.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Are there any stats available like these in the U18s academy league , and PNE isn't a good category, they play teams like Rochdale and Accy...which is where Dolan was playing?  Nobbers own stats probably not available to us.  I may be wrong.

Clubs have a lot more available to them than people like myself. Public can see data down to U23's level, but wouldn't shock me if clubs have data at 18's. Depends on provider I'd assume. FAYC will definitely have some data on it, which no doubt is where Ty made his name really.

[AndyW]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

As someone who spends a good chunk of their working life on some form of data analysis I will say first and foremost I am often in awe of the presentation and methods used in the analysis, at times it’s the theory I am not fully aligned with

For me there’s a place in football for it but I see it more in a sense of spotting weaknesses in players games and then highlighting where they need to improve. 
 

If I’m going to present anything to our ExCo or HR director then the biggest thing in my mind is the ‘so what?’ I can produce a long deck with lots of figures and stats but there has to be a key message to take away or it’s meaningless.

That’s why I find tables such as the one posted in here recently as detrimental to the ‘reputation’ of data in football, there’s no real takeaway from it but we could infer something from a positional analysis of people in similar roles etc 

So for me, time and a place but it shouldn’t be shoehorned in where it’s not needed and should always be used as a consideration to go with what the eye can see. 

Hi Tom.

The takeaway was that when John Buckley has played Blackburn Rovers have scored more than they concede. I never should've posted the entire screenshot really, it's just confused the point.

I would, however, be interested to know if you have read the recruitment document. Would be interesting to hear a professional opinion on that.

[bigbrandjohn]

So the 100 is up on the Transfer Scoreboard👏👏👏. 
No evidence of any activity that would indicate  a breakthrough before 150 is on the board. 
Perhaps even 200 up before Armstrong is done and dusted. 
“Wake me up before he go goes.” 🕺🏃🏻‍♂️🏃🏻‍♂️🏃🏻‍♂️

[AllRoverAsia]

9 hours ago, AndyW said:

Apologies to all, this is my fault for plonking a table down without explaining it's meaning.

It's not my table, it's direct from fbref which uses Statsbomb data. The argument was around whether we won with Buckley in the team. All that table is showing is that we have a positive goal difference in the time that he has played. 

Whilst JB has been on the pitch we have scored 15 and conceded 10 in 2020/21. But, as the table shows, the vast majority of our players have a net positive (because we had a positive goal difference across the season). JBs ratio is 10th best in the squad. 

That table DOESN'T SHOW how good players are. It doesn't show Armstrong is poor for the team whilst JRC is brilliant.

Sometimes people do infer that, but I can't have it. As has been said before, football is a chaotic, low-margin game with 22 players on the pitch. To suggest that the presence of one player makes a telling difference is (for the most part) debatable. Even a player as influential as Dack or Travis. This was one of the problems with Mowbray's arguments last year about them making coming back and making a huge difference.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Appreciated.