Football Terminology

[Guest]

Talk to John Buckley about transitions, recoveries and some of these other words you think footballers don't understand. Because I have, and these footballers DO understand these terminologies and put them into practice every day. It's hammered into them from quite an early age now.

Footballers are becoming more intelligent, and not in the way that @Mattyblueis referring to. I'm not talking "football intelligence", I'm talking intelligence full-stop. They're two different things. If you can find a footballer who's clever by nature that also has great footballing intelligence, you're onto a winner. Rovers are doing a great job of breeding that into their academy graduates. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

So why is it that 2 coaches and a referee on this forum don't understand them?

More to the point, you (defending the terms and claiming to understand them) haven't been able to explain them either.

Are these 2 coaches at professional clubs? I'd be very sceptical of anyone who works within a professional set up, especially in the UK, that doesn't understand at least most of these terms.

I don't see how refereeing is relevant here... at all.

I haven't failed to explain them, I have given explanations, people just don't agree with them - that's fine. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

But an intelligent footballer is not necessarily one who is up to date with all of the aforementioned jargon, which is unnecessary.

That's false. Speak to these footballers, ask them, it's a basic part of what they do on a daily basis. These terms aren't just Sky mumblings, it's common use within professional clubs. 

[roversfan99]

34 minutes ago, JoeH said:

That's false. Speak to these footballers, ask them, it's a basic part of what they do on a daily basis. These terms aren't just Sky mumblings, it's common use within professional clubs. 

I am sure that they are aware of them, my point being that these needless terms are not what makes them more intelligent. Knowing what to do when the other team loses the ball in your half to set up a counter attack is the intelligent bit, not using the word "transition" for example.

I think it is condescending to imply that not everyone understands these terms either, its just that people dont see the need for it, and I would agree that it can at times seem like people trying to portray intelligence by creating and using new terms for things that there are already words and phrases to describe. 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I am sure that they are aware of them, my point being that these needless terms are not what makes them more intelligent. Knowing what to do when the other team loses the ball in your half to set up a counter attack is the intelligent bit, not using the word "transition" for example.

They're not needless terms, and the whole of the professional football club community feels that way. The meaninglessness of these words is your opinion which you are presenting as fact.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I think it is condescending to imply that not everyone understands these terms either

It's not condescending to say that posters who claim they don't understand some of the terms, don't understand them. 

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, JoeH said:

They're not needless terms, and the whole of the professional football club community feels that way. The meaninglessness of these words is your opinion which you are presenting as fact.

We are both presenting opinion, albeit I am not doing so whilst claiming to represent "the whole of the professional football club community."

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We are both presenting opinion, albeit I am not doing so whilst claiming to represent "the whole of the professional football club community."

I don't claim to represent anyone or anything. I'm giving information based on my knowledge. You are presenting your opinions as facts, that these terms are meaningless.

[roversfan99]

Just now, JoeH said:

I don't claim to represent anyone or anything. I'm giving information based on my knowledge. You are presenting your opinions as facts, that these terms are meaningless.

It is just my opinion, many of these words and phrases are in my opinion meaningless, conjured up by people often to try and appear to know more than others, when current terminology would suffice.

You said "They're not needless terms, and the whole of the professional football club community feels that way" which you cannot possibly claim.

[Mike E]

Having just spoken to 2 individuals intimately involved at Rovers (both in the youth coaching set-up), and our former fitness coach, I took the opportunity to ask what a 'Low Block' is.

All 3 agreed it was 'a bullshit term' for the line of defence; a low block sits back and parks the bus, a high block presses higher up the pitch, and a standard block is a balance between the two.

Asked a bit more and 'if you've seen the 'line of engagement' in Football Manager games, it's that.

I get the impression that it's more like shorthand rather than new terminology. Is that your understanding of it Joe?

Edited December 15, 2021 by Mike E

[Mattyblue]

18 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Having just spoken to 2 individuals intimately involved at Rovers (both in the youth coaching set-up), and our former fitness coach, I took the opportunity to ask what a 'Low Block' is.

All 3 agreed it was 'a bullshit term'

Maybe they just aren’t very intelligent…

[tomphil]

If it's new terminology for new things then fair enough but when a lot of it is putting a new slant on the same old things ? Then it's just rebranding and repackaging or to coin another phrase 'sexing up' the commentary.

A wonder what they call a 'reducer' these days 😂

[Tugay Et Labore]

I honestly can’t fathom how people have and issue with language and terminology changing in football. They will have changed in most industries over the last 30+ years. Football has changed incredibly quickly over those years so why would it be any different?

 

To someone not doing my job day in day out, would some terminology changes in my industry seem redundant to them? Of course. Are they redundant to me? Absolutely not. I also don’t refuse to use them because I think someone who doesn’t do my job might not understand, find it pointless or disagree whether it’s progress. 

 

The level of training and analysis within the game is a million miles away from what it was. If there wasn’t new methods, terminology and positions in the game I’d want to know what the hell they’ve been working on at all the training grounds up and down the country for the last 30 years. 

 

 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

49 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If it's new terminology for new things then fair enough but when a lot of it is putting a new slant on the same old things ? Then it's just rebranding and repackaging or to coin another phrase 'sexing up' the commentary.

A wonder what they call a 'reducer' these days 😂

We used to call it “ a quietener “. As in “ Their No 10 is playing well Tyrone, you better quieten him “.

[Oldgregg86]

52 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If it's new terminology for new things then fair enough but when a lot of it is putting a new slant on the same old things ? Then it's just rebranding and repackaging or to coin another phrase 'sexing up' the commentary.

A wonder what they call a 'reducer' these days 😂

John Buckley completed 73% of his Hollywood passes whilst joe rothwell managed to complete 3 lollipops 

i prefer Ron Atkinsons football terminology 😂

( a lollipop is what big Ron re worded as a step over for all you thickos)

Edited December 15, 2021 by Oldgregg86

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

John Buckley completed 73% of his Hollywood passes whilst joe rothwell managed to complete 3 lollipops 

i prefer Ron Atkinsons football terminology 😂

( a lollipop is what big Ron re worded as a step over for all you thickos)

I don’t recall Big Ron doing many step overs in his playing career.

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, Tugay Et Labore said:

I honestly can’t fathom how people have and issue with language and terminology changing in football. They will have changed in most industries over the last 30+ years. Football has changed incredibly quickly over those years so why would it be any different?

 

To someone not doing my job day in day out, would some terminology changes in my industry seem redundant to them? Of course. Are they redundant to me? Absolutely not. I also don’t refuse to use them because I think someone who doesn’t do my job might not understand, find it pointless or disagree whether it’s progress. 

 

The level of training and analysis within the game is a million miles away from what it was. If there wasn’t new methods, terminology and positions in the game I’d want to know what the hell they’ve been working on at all the training grounds up and down the country for the last 30 years. 

 

 

 

There are so many genuine, tangible ways in which the game has evolved. Information and knowledge on nutrition, recovery, injury, hydration etc have helped footballers to become proper athletes. There are also a number of other improvements but is adding buzzwords and phrases like a low block, transition, pivot etc making any genuine improvement on words that mean the same thing that already existed?

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Is adding buzzwords and phrases like a low block, transition, pivot etc making any genuine improvement on words that mean the same thing that already existed?

Yes. It's not adding buzzwords, it's developing our terminology within the game thanks to foreign influence from some very bright minds. 

2 hours ago, Mike E said:

Having just spoken to 2 individuals intimately involved at Rovers (both in the youth coaching set-up), and our former fitness coach, I took the opportunity to ask what a 'Low Block' is.

All 3 agreed it was 'a bullshit term' for the line of defence; a low block sits back and parks the bus, a high block presses higher up the pitch, and a standard block is a balance between the two.

Asked a bit more and 'if you've seen the 'line of engagement' in Football Manager games, it's that.

I get the impression that it's more like shorthand rather than new terminology. Is that your understanding of it Joe?

That particular phrase could be called a shortening I suppose, but I think any term or phrase that helps shorten a sentence or two down into one word or two is useful. It's just one example though. It is far from a bullshit term and I'm yet to come across people in football who would describe it that way.

Like I said earlier in this thread, if I wrote a report and didn't use the correct terminology, it would be deemed a poor report by the manager. Soon I wouldn't have a job. Every club is different, every manager wants different things and will have different terms. Perhaps working under somebody very old school would be very different, but I'm yet to come across anyone not using most of these 'buzzwords'.

51 minutes ago, Tugay Et Labore said:

If there wasn’t new methods, terminology and positions in the game I’d want to know what the hell they’ve been working on at all the training grounds up and down the country for the last 30 years. 

Couldn't agree more. Plenty on this thread sounds a hell of a lot like fear to change, but many are insisting that's not what this reaction is. I don't understand the reluctance to it when it's so widely and commonly used now within the game.

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

Then it's just rebranding and repackaging or to coin another phrase 'sexing up' the commentary.

I agree. I think Sky and the media are making this particular issue more difficult. I think there's a lot of sexing up going on, often by pundits who played many years ago who I think have quite a limited understanding of some of the jargon they're spouting anyway. It doesn't help the cause of data analysis in winning people over because the wordings and data itself is very often misused and misreported. Jamie Carragher does a decent job with it and has certainly spent time working on it, that shows.

Edited December 15, 2021 by JoeH

[tomphil]

53 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

John Buckley completed 73% of his Hollywood passes whilst joe rothwell managed to complete 3 lollipops 

i prefer Ron Atkinsons football terminology 😂

( a lollipop is what big Ron re worded as a step over for all you thickos)

I was wondering what a Cruyff might be called now although we rarely see one i suppose. Teams are too busy with transitions and recycles etc 🤭 

[Tugay Et Labore]

56 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There are so many genuine, tangible ways in which the game has evolved. Information and knowledge on nutrition, recovery, injury, hydration etc have helped footballers to become proper athletes. There are also a number of other improvements but is adding buzzwords and phrases like a low block, transition, pivot etc making any genuine improvement on words that mean the same thing that already existed?

Some of the words and phrases mean the same thing, others are different so I’d say those are necessary (for instance I can’t think of what transition was called before. Maybe I’m just tired though so happy to be informed on that). The ones that are the same don’t necessarily have to be an improvement. Language changes. For instance, if Pep Guardiola wanted to start his attacks with his deep lying midfielder receiving the ball from the keeper and turn upfield. He might start calling that player the “turn”.  Players, coaches and the media would use it and if I was that player I’d change my first name to “turn” too. The player is still a deep lying midfielder to everyone else, but the position of the turn means something different to the players in that team. It’s not a grand master plan by a young coach or data analyst to make up buzzwords, it organically happens. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Tugay Et Labore

[Mattyblue]

I’m all for progress, of course the game has moved on tactically, sport does that, as does the general workplace, my line of work has transformed from when my dad started in the same company as me decades ago.  Cricket is a prime example in sport, a totally different game in terms of what batsmen, as an example, can now understand and add to their game. But I’m not going to let Joe cannily try and paint those that are sceptical of these mere cosmetic language changes as some kind of backward dinosaurs. Tut tut! 😁

So I’m still waiting for him to explain how not creating a new tactic, but just renaming it, i.e ‘low block’, means you are ‘progressive’ and have a ‘bright mind’ and are ‘intelligent’? 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mattyblue

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

I’m all for progress, of course the game has moved on tactically, sport does that, as does the general workplace, my line of work has transformed from when my dad started in the same company as me decades ago.  Cricket is a prime example in sport, a totally different game in terms of what batsmen, as an example, can now understand and add to their game. But I’m not going to let Joe cannily try and paint those that are sceptical of these mere cosmetic language changes as some kind of backward dinosaurs. Tut tut! 😁

So I’m still waiting for him to explain how not creating a new tactic, but just renaming it, i.e ‘low block’, means you are ‘progressive’ and have a ‘bright mind’ and are ‘intelligent’? 

I think he was referring to players being more aware and understanding of the individual expectations of their role.

Not simply getting top grades in their GCSE’s

For instance, when I played football - my role was the person who keeps the ball out of the net and boots it to the strikers head from the ground or out my hands.

If id played for the same u10-u16 team now, (over in ossy, great to see them still going, and I know the manager / coach, they even have a GK coach in once a month now) I would’ve been taught slow and quick transition, organising defences on corners and free kicks, playing out from the back and positions out the box.

In 1996, If the same manager had seen me stood ten yards outside my box like Tommy K - would’ve been hammered from the touch line 😂 

The game has changed.

[Mattyblue]

Well he didn’t mean that actually, as he dismissed those that discussed ‘football intelligence’.  He said it’s actually a sign of ‘intelligence’ if players, parrot like, regurgitated jargon.

That isn’t what makes an intelligent player, just like it doesn’t make for an ‘intelligent worker’ like that individual that constantly talks in jargon and acronyms in the wider world of work.

Yes, of course, there’s a place for data, for better tactical knowledge, indeed a vital place - but Joe often seems to forget about the human, the emotional, the nous element of playing and coaching.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mattyblue

[JBiz]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Well he didn’t mean that actually, as he dismissed those that discussed ‘football intelligence’.  He said it’s actually a sign of ‘intelligence’ if players, parrot like, regurgitated jargon.

That isn’t what makes an intelligent player, just like it doesn’t make for an ‘intelligent worker’ like that individual that constantly talks in jargon and acronyms in the wider world of work.

Yes, of course, there’s a place for data, for better tactical knowledge, indeed a vital place - but Joe often seems to forget about the human, the emotional, the nous element of playing and coaching.

Perhaps - I only briefly dip into this discussion.

The game has moved on entirely though - was a good example on Matt Mills Undr the cosh, where he’s talking about coaches don’t want opinions from players anymore or captains digging team mates out for mistakes.

To me this is why coaches need to have more control and specific guidance / instructions about their tactics.

Im not talking about swapping names (for Example a False nine is a fucking number 10!!!) and acronyms, I’m talking about making a lot more in depth than the Clough 442 + “stop Stan Bowles”

[Mattyblue]

Totally agree, and that’s where Joe differed,  as he believes now calling it a ‘low block’ was a sign of ‘intelligence’ and ‘progressiveness’.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mattyblue