v Cardiff City (a) 10/4/21 - Into the Valley(s)

[chaddyrovers]

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I can only speak for myself but that’s because I see his ‘promotion’ to CF as being a direct cause of our lack of shape, team ethic, performances and results.

It’s also sorry excuse for Mowbray’s failure to recruit well and subsequent failure to develop the two strikers that he did buy.

The fact it is the match thread is just an organic thing rather than a deliberate attempt to undermine his two goals yesterday.

But Armstrong is a striker and not a winger tho Stuart. 

 If Mowbray had sign a wide left player in our 1st season then Armstrong would have played up front more earlier 

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I can only speak for myself but that’s because I see his ‘promotion’ to CF as being a direct cause of our lack of shape, team ethic, performances and results.

It’s also sorry excuse for Mowbray’s failure to recruit well and subsequent failure to develop the two strikers that he did buy.

The fact it is the match thread is just an organic thing rather than a deliberate attempt to undermine his two goals yesterday.

When Armstrong was signed, Mowbray did say in fairness that the intention long term was to play him centrally. For 18 months as a wide man, he was ineffective to the point whereby his place in the team was questionable. As a striker in the following 18 months, he has been prolific. I think the only other time in his career where he was used centrally was at Coventry when again he scored loads of goals.

I certainly would never try to defend Mowbrays recruitment, Armstrong is a rare success of an otherwise shoddy track record. But it would be counter productive to move Armstrong away from a position whereby he is one of very few players who is actually doing their job. 

Gallagher and Brereton are 2 really poor signings, one of whom was signed based on familiarity and one on the back of a game in which his team failed to score against us. The former has never shown signs to suggest that he could get close to Armstrongs goal return, and Brereton has shown even less than that to the point where his shots barely tend to reach the goal, never mind go in it. Them playing wide is a seperate issue, Mowbray has strange tactical ideas of which there is no doubt, plus there are also spaces out wide because Mowbray has got a poor track record of signing wide men.

I also feel that too much is placed on Armstrongs number of shots. Selfishness is important to a striker and I do concede that Armstrongs single mindedness can sometimes be counterproductive, though never to the point whereby it outweighs his goals. Its not as simple as it is portrayed otherwise everyone should just be encouraged to shoot on sight.

It just makes no sense to suggest that a striker on more than 20 goals is a direct cause of our poor results. They would be worse without him.

[Stuart]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But Armstrong is a striker and not a winger tho Stuart. 

 If Mowbray had sign a wide left player in our 1st season then Armstrong would have played up front more earlier 

He’s a striker in a side who are staring relegation in the face despite his goal tally.

 

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

it would be counter productive to move Armstrong away from a position whereby he is one of very few players who is actually doing their job. 

I’m afraid that’s called sub-optimisation.

A healthy team would have more than one player being played to their strengths.

The move of Armstrong to the middle meant that Dack now also needed to be found a new job, and that’s after Brereton and Gallagher had to be found new roles which made both of them less effective.

Armstrong’s goals may have just about kept the side from falling into real relegation trouble when the squad should have been looking up at the play-offs. Talk about papering over the cracks. It’s certainly not something I’ll be pleased about or grateful for.

In an ironic twist, it’ll probably be the sale of Armstrong that will be used to pay up Mowbray’s last 12 months and fund the wages of his replacement!

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, Stuart said:

He’s a striker in a side who are staring relegation in the face despite his goal tally.

 

I’m afraid that’s called sub-optimisation.

A healthy team would have more than one player being played to their strengths.

The move of Armstrong to the middle meant that Dack now also needed to be found a new job, and that’s after Brereton and Gallagher had to be found new roles which made both of them less effective.

Armstrong’s goals may have just about kept the side from falling into real relegation trouble when the squad should have been looking up at the play-offs. Talk about papering over the cracks. It’s certainly not something I’ll be pleased about or grateful for.

In an ironic twist, it’ll probably be the sale of Armstrong that will be used to pay up Mowbray’s last 12 months and fund the wages of his replacement!

We arent a healthy team though, partly because of the managers flawed tactics and also the shoddy set of players that Mowbray has assembled, Gallagher, Brereton, Rothwell, Holtby, Dolan etc, do you think any are potentially really good players who will shine as soon as the hindrace that is Adam Armstrong leaves? Or indeed that we do have a top 6 squad or anything close considering how poor Mowbrays recruitment has been?

Brereton has actually has his best season here by far (still not good) when playing on the left with Armstrong central.

[chaddyrovers]

13 minutes ago, Stuart said:

He’s a striker in a side who are staring relegation in the face despite his goal tally.

Similar to our 1st season at this level with Rhodes. 

Mowbray should have adapted his tactics and move to 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 during the season but he has failed to do so. 

But the main problem has been Mowbray failing to use the 12 million pounds he spent on Gallagher and Brereton and use that money to improve the overall strength of the team. 

Are you going be happy when we sell Armstrong this summer? 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by chaddyrovers

[Stuart]

8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Are you going be happy when we sell Armstrong this summer? 

Happy is the wrong word.

We have to cash in while his stock is high. It won’t be this high again and he is replaceable.

Would I trust Mowbray to replace him? No but we cannot have another season like the second half of this one. Something will need to force his hand to change.

Such a mess.

[Stuart]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We arent a healthy team though, partly because of the managers flawed tactics and also the shoddy set of players that Mowbray has assembled, Gallagher, Brereton, Rothwell, Holtby, Dolan etc, do you think any are potentially really good players who will shine as soon as the hindrace that is Adam Armstrong leaves? Or indeed that we do have a top 6 squad or anything close considering how poor Mowbrays recruitment has been?

Brereton has actually has his best season here by far (still not good) when playing on the left with Armstrong central.

You are calling Rothwell, Holtby and Dolan shoddy? That’s a really strange way to make your point. Presumably Elliott is also shoddy?

Isn’t it more likely that there is a common denominator to this shoddiness?

This squad has massively under achieved through poor man-management, coaching and tactics. This same team was bartering folk at the start of the season before all of the usual tinkering.

[chaddyrovers]

19 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Happy is the wrong word.

We have to cash in while his stock is high. It won’t be this high again and he is replaceable.

Would I trust Mowbray to replace him? No but we cannot have another season like the second half of this one. Something will need to force his hand to change.

Such a mess.

I agree we have to cash in with only 12 months left on his deal. 

I am assuming Stuart you want Mowbray replacing as manager. 

I've asked the Summer 2021 transfer thread is how we replace Armstrong's goals and how we go about it. 

 

10 minutes ago, Stuart said:

 

This squad has massively under achieved through poor man-management, coaching and tactics. 

Where do you think this squad should be in the league and is it top 6 quality as Mowbray said earlier in the season? 

How would you like to see us play tactical Stuart? 

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, Stuart said:

You are calling Rothwell, Holtby and Dolan shoddy? That’s a really strange way to make your point. Presumably Elliott is also shoddy?

Isn’t it more likely that there is a common denominator to this shoddiness?

This squad has massively under achieved through poor man-management, coaching and tactics. This same team was bartering folk at the start of the season before all of the usual tinkering.

Dolan is incredibly young and raw, its his first season so im sure he will turn into a very useful player with time. Rothwell has spent 3 years now hiding behind excuses, but if he puts 2 good performances in a row then its a miracle. Good atrributes within and occasional brilliance but usually anonymous. Holtby is living off a reputation from 10 years ago, he can barely stay fit and again he rarely ever does anything. They both have talent but are both beyond deserving the benefit of the doubt.

Elliott has been better than most, its not an honour to have him as many would have you believe and like all his form has dipped but he scores and sets up goals more than most.

I dont doubt the fact that the manager is a hindrance but I think a huge problem is that the squad is not great. I think it needs gutting in the summer. 

[chaddyrovers]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

dont doubt the fact that the manager is a hindrance but I think a huge problem is that the squad is not great. I think it needs gutting in the summer. 

The same manager who said this squad is top 6 quality. This is his squad and after 3 years of backing we are 17th in the league. Mowbray needs sacking before the squad rebuild happens

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

47 minutes ago, Stuart said:

You are calling Rothwell, Holtby and Dolan shoddy? That’s a really strange way to make your point. Presumably Elliott is also shoddy?

Isn’t it more likely that there is a common denominator to this shoddiness?

This squad has massively under achieved through poor man-management, coaching and tactics. This same team was bartering folk at the start of the season before all of the usual tinkering.

I’m not impressed with Holtby, he’s good for a 15 to 20 minute spell in a game at the most. Rothwell has one good game in six. Dolan has potential but he’s far from the finished object.

[Stuart]

16 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I’m not impressed with Holtby, he’s good for a 15 to 20 minute spell in a game at the most. Rothwell has one good game in six. Dolan has potential but he’s far from the finished object.

I’ve not been impressed with most players that Mowbray has been in charge of this season.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

The same manager who said this squad is top 6 quality. This is his squad and after 3 years of backing we are 17th in the league. Mowbray needs sacking before the squad rebuild happens

Im not sure if he ever said that it is top 6 quality, but even if he did, it doesnt mean that its true. It might well be higher than 17th in quality, but nowhere near top 6 because his recruitment has been so poor.

Mowbray wont be sacked anyway. Theres no point getting excited that Mowbray will be sacked and a rebuilt will be done effectively this summer. 

[chaddyrovers]

24 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Im not sure if he ever said that it is top 6 quality, but even if he did, it doesnt mean that its true. It might well be higher than 17th in quality, but nowhere near top 6 because his recruitment has been so poor.

Well he did say it as Bayes has said several times on Radio Lancs. 

He said to Sharpe this is the best squad he had assembled here and the expectations will be top 6. 

What more do you want? Why keep arguing about it when it's what the manager said

26 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Mowbray wont be sacked anyway. Theres no point getting excited that Mowbray will be sacked and a rebuilt will be done effectively this summer. 

Why keep telling this every time/day?

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Well he did say it as Bayes has said several times on Radio Lancs. 

He said to Sharpe this is the best squad he had assembled here and the expectations will be top 6. 

What more do you want? Why keep arguing about it when it's what the manager said

Why keep telling this every time/day?

Ok, so he didnt say that we have a top 6 quality squad, which even if he had have done, wouldnt have made it true. He said that it is the best squad that he has assembled, which is debatable, and that we had aspirations of the top 6, which he has not only failed to compete for, but has gone even further back from last seasons mediocrity which you staunchly defended.

[chaddyrovers]

15 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Ok, so he didnt say that we have a top 6 quality squad, which even if he had have done, wouldnt have made it true. He said that it is the best squad that he has assembled, which is debatable, and that we had aspirations of the top 6, which he has not only failed to compete for, but has gone even further back from last seasons mediocrity which you staunchly defended.

Yes he did to Andy Bayes as I have said several times on here. 

We improve last season. This season we havent improve and we have been awful at times as certain stats will tell you 

[47er]

20 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

so he didnt say that we have a top 6 quality squad, which even if he had have done, wouldnt have made it true.

So what 's he been doing all this time then? No forced sales and £20m to spend.

Its taken him over 4 years to have us worried once more about relegation.

Barnsley, on the other hand.....

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, 47er said:

So what 's he been doing all this time then? No forced sales and £20m to spend.

Its taken him over 4 years to have us worried once more about relegation.

Barnsley, on the other hand.....

Im not defending Mowbray in any way. My point is that I think the squad he has put together armed with time and money and spearheaded by 2 expensive failures is crap. I dont think its close to being a top 6 quality squad.

[47er]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Im not defending Mowbray in any way. My point is that I think the squad he has put together armed with time and money and spearheaded by 2 expensive failures is crap. I dont think its close to being a top 6 quality squad.

I think it could have been( although its so unbalanced) if only the manager had played people in their natural positions and not changed the side every week.

That alone would have lifted confidence and morale.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, 47er said:

I think it could have been( although its so unbalanced) if only the manager had played people in their natural positions and not changed the side every week.

That alone would have lifted confidence and morale.

I would disagree, only 1 or 2 I would consider to be top 6 players. Certainly it could finish higher than 17th mind you.

[Fraserkirky]

3 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I’m not impressed with Holtby, he’s good for a 15 to 20 minute spell in a game at the most. Rothwell has one good game in six. Dolan has potential but he’s far from the finished object.

Holtby was better early season when he was the one dictating play in front of the back four. Get him back there and have Travis and Rothwell either side pressing and supporting.

[m1st]

On 11/04/2021 at 01:44, AllRoverAsia said:

Everton scout actually said:

''In fact, it is not about launching shots and making unnecessary attempts at goal, 65 shots have been on target and he leads the table for most shots on target per 90 minutes with 1.99 shots on target''

He's a head down player, doesn't really always see what others are doing, gets a glimpse of the target and shoots.

He's not told to do that, it's the way he is and always has been in his career.

For what its worth he is 3rd on the Rovers 'Assist' list, way behind Harvey E. and just behind Ryan N.

I do think he's a greedy bugger. Thank God.

That's why my Geordie pals told me that Benitez let him go so - comparatively - cheaply. They thought Rafa saw him as a good Championship forward but was one of those who couldn't make the transition to the Premier League.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I would disagree, only 1 or 2 I would consider to be top 6 players. Certainly it could finish higher than 17th mind you.

It all depends on whether you believe players are under performing because of TM or not. Looking at the squad he has assembled - excusing injuries

Personally - I think the defence from Saturday (incl GK) have top 6 potential (excl Douglas).

Elliott would walk into most teams, as would a fully fit Travis and Dack.

Armstrong would obviously get into most teams.

You then have a few players that you could argue cases for and against - i.e. Rothwell on his day would get into every team (but those days are in frequent, and rarely maintains his form over a full 90 minutes), post lockdown Brereton might get into some top 6 teams (form has dipped away again, though looked better Saturday), the Evans that plays for NI would get into most teams, Holtby from the first few matches looked excellent but drifted away.

IMO this has the potential to be a top 6 squad - though a little unbalanced - IMO what is lacking from most players is consistency and that extra 10% that most have shown at one time or another. The big question - is that down totally to Mowbray ? I think he has to take some of the blame with tactics and playing players out of position etc.

[tomphil]

A few of them might get into top 6 sides but very few of them  would stay in going off what we see here.

Then again it's all about finding their niche in a decent functioning team.  That rarely happens here they don't get chance to find any consistency in a lot of cases. They way the team is run and the turnover of players off and on is counter productive to that.

Edited April 12, 2021 by tomphil

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

It all depends on whether you believe players are under performing because of TM or not. Looking at the squad he has assembled - excusing injuries

Personally - I think the defence from Saturday (incl GK) have top 6 potential (excl Douglas).

Elliott would walk into most teams, as would a fully fit Travis and Dack.

Armstrong would obviously get into most teams.

You then have a few players that you could argue cases for and against - i.e. Rothwell on his day would get into every team (but those days are in frequent, and rarely maintains his form over a full 90 minutes), post lockdown Brereton might get into some top 6 teams (form has dipped away again, though looked better Saturday), the Evans that plays for NI would get into most teams, Holtby from the first few matches looked excellent but drifted away.

IMO this has the potential to be a top 6 squad - though a little unbalanced - IMO what is lacking from most players is consistency and that extra 10% that most have shown at one time or another. The big question - is that down totally to Mowbray ? I think he has to take some of the blame with tactics and playing players out of position etc.

Its all a matter of opinions I suppose but I would disagree. I think people take when I say this as a defence of Mowbray and his underachievement but I think his recruitment has been poor.

Armstrong is the third top scorer in the league so little doubt for me that he can be considered a top 6 player. Dack also would be for me but unfortunately has been injured all season bar being the catalyst for that win at Millwall.

Beyond that, not so much. Elliott scores and assists plenty so maybe a case could be made for him. I personally dont think that Travis would get into any top 6 sides. Brereton even at his best was little more than ok, a couple of good performances but it was based on such a low benchmark, nothing close to a top 6 player. Rothwell has attributes but again nowhere near, same with a few including Gallagher, they not only havent done it here, they havent done it prior, Rothwell wasnt really making that much of a name at Oxford. Holtby lives off a reputation from 10 years ago, fact of the matter is that he came after being released from the German second tier, cant stay fit and even when he can, more often than not ineffective, Evans hasnt done it for 10 years. Lenihan is our most influential defender over a couple of seasons now but still rather rash, Nyambe has attributes and has been one of our better players but even he isnt top 6, Kaminski is (usually) steady but again, top 6? So many question marks.

I am not ruling out that one or two of them might suddenly start performing consistently with a new manager, and I dont doubt that we are better than a side that should be 17th.