Championship 21/22

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

38 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

It's all what if etc. Which is not something I usually like to go into. But if we'd scored those 2 penalties against Sheffield Utd and Bristol we'd be four points off second right now. 2 points had we somehow not chucked away the points against Coventry. It's absolutely ridiculous that we've fallen out the playoffs. I'm not sure many sides have ever fallen away as badly as we have. 

I can’t personally recall a team falling away so badly in the past although it must have happened.

[Rogerb]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I can’t personally recall a team falling away so badly in the past although it must have happened.

How about Middlesboro?

[rigger]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I can’t personally recall a team falling away so badly in the past although it must have happened.

West Brom this season ?

[LewisF]

under which manager?...

[speeeeeeedie]

7 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

It's all what if etc. Which is not something I usually like to go into. But if we'd scored those 2 penalties against Sheffield Utd and Bristol we'd be four points off second right now. 2 points had we somehow not chucked away the points against Coventry. It's absolutely ridiculous that we've fallen out the playoffs. I'm not sure many sides have ever fallen away as badly as we have. 

Thanks to ESPN+ I've had the pleasure, if that's what you can call it, of watching pretty much every Rovers game since January. The Hull loss started it, but I think the real kicker was the loss at Bramall Lane. That one seemed to damage the team and at the same time give them a boost. Khadra should never have taken the penalty either.

Rovers are playing for an unlikely 6th place finish, which is a real shame considering that all talk over Christmas was Premier League here we come.

[MarkBRFC]

7 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I can’t personally recall a team falling away so badly in the past although it must have happened.

Said it before, but Middlesbrough under Mowbray were 3rd at Christmas one year and finished 16th.

The year before that under him they were 2nd at Christmas and finished 7th.

 

[ben_the_beast]

Repating myself and a few others but it's criminal that we are where we are. Injuries have had an impact but they're no excuse. For me the key impacts are as follows

1. Mowbray actively choosing not to bring in a striker in January. I'm sure he's too stubborn not to admit to his mistake, but it's the biggest of the lot. 

2. The signing of Giles. He's looks a good footballer but it's played into the Mowbray handbook of cocking things up. As competition for Pickering an excellent addition. But seeing him line up in attack time and again has had a huge negative impact. It again points to stubbornness and favoritism that it keeps happening. Pickering is clearly one of Mowbrays boys. And Giles his recent signing. They both play the same position yet he wants both in the team. 

3. Diaz injury. It's unfortunate, but we put all our eggs in one basket by not signing a striker. 

4. The persistent use as Buckley as a false 9 and Gallagher out wide. I like Buckley. A lot. I think he's one of the best our academy has produced in a long time. But he couldn't finish his dinner. I'm certain he wasn't a false 9 in our excellent run. He took up the most advanced central position where we were out of possession as he's a good presser. But it was more fluid. As times gone on he's become more advanced and less effective. It pushes Gallagher wider which makes me want to cry.

5. Khadra missing the pen against Sheffield United. That coupled with their last minute winner. Dacky then doing the same against Bristol. As much as we've been poor. There are games in this run that we've dominated, deserved 3 points from and not seen it over the line. Some key moments have gone against us. That's on the players losing their composure. There has been an element of bad luck too. Mowbray has made baffling decisions in this run in. But he's definitely not been a lucky manager in the last few months either. 

6. Post Derby mess. It seems apparent the players took over at half time against Derby. Johnson publicly ridiculed Mowbrays tactics. Wholesale changes and the manager sulked on the touchline as we turned it around. They are a young team but I do think there's some real leaders. Lenihan, Van Hecke, Dacky, Brereton. I genuinely believe after the Derby match just letting the players go and run things would have seen a surge. Mowbray has talked about letting players manage the dressing room before. That's all he needed to do. No tinkering, keep it simple. Speak to a few of those leaders and follow what they felt was needed. Instead he made himself the most important man in the club by imposing his peculiar tactics on the group in the very next game after they had dug us out a hole. What could be more demoralising and halt momentum. 

 

Those are some of the key moments for me. There are others and the odd decisions have just continued. There's been bad luck at times. But the manager has really cocked this up. There's still a chance. We're just outside the playoffs and the thing that brings me hope is our 2 goalscorers being back in Diaz and Dacky. But I don't have much hope because I think the man in the dugout is stubborn, an over thinker and overstates his own importance. Sometimes a good manager has to grab a team by the scruff of the neck and drive it in a certain direction. But they also need to know when to stand back and let the talent around them step forward. Ours doesn't recognise this.

[martonrover]

39 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

Repating myself and a few others but it's criminal that we are where we are. Injuries have had an impact but they're no excuse. For me the key impacts are as follows

1. Mowbray actively choosing not to bring in a striker in January. I'm sure he's too stubborn not to admit to his mistake, but it's the biggest of the lot. 

2. The signing of Giles. He's looks a good footballer but it's played into the Mowbray handbook of cocking things up. As competition for Pickering an excellent addition. But seeing him line up in attack time and again has had a huge negative impact. It again points to stubbornness and favoritism that it keeps happening. Pickering is clearly one of Mowbrays boys. And Giles his recent signing. They both play the same position yet he wants both in the team. 

3. Diaz injury. It's unfortunate, but we put all our eggs in one basket by not signing a striker. 

4. The persistent use as Buckley as a false 9 and Gallagher out wide. I like Buckley. A lot. I think he's one of the best our academy has produced in a long time. But he couldn't finish his dinner. I'm certain he wasn't a false 9 in our excellent run. He took up the most advanced central position where we were out of possession as he's a good presser. But it was more fluid. As times gone on he's become more advanced and less effective. It pushes Gallagher wider which makes me want to cry.

5. Khadra missing the pen against Sheffield United. That coupled with their last minute winner. Dacky then doing the same against Bristol. As much as we've been poor. There are games in this run that we've dominated, deserved 3 points from and not seen it over the line. Some key moments have gone against us. That's on the players losing their composure. There has been an element of bad luck too. Mowbray has made baffling decisions in this run in. But he's definitely not been a lucky manager in the last few months either. 

6. Post Derby mess. It seems apparent the players took over at half time against Derby. Johnson publicly ridiculed Mowbrays tactics. Wholesale changes and the manager sulked on the touchline as we turned it around. They are a young team but I do think there's some real leaders. Lenihan, Van Hecke, Dacky, Brereton. I genuinely believe after the Derby match just letting the players go and run things would have seen a surge. Mowbray has talked about letting players manage the dressing room before. That's all he needed to do. No tinkering, keep it simple. Speak to a few of those leaders and follow what they felt was needed. Instead he made himself the most important man in the club by imposing his peculiar tactics on the group in the very next game after they had dug us out a hole. What could be more demoralising and halt momentum. 

 

Those are some of the key moments for me. There are others and the odd decisions have just continued. There's been bad luck at times. But the manager has really cocked this up. There's still a chance. We're just outside the playoffs and the thing that brings me hope is our 2 goalscorers being back in Diaz and Dacky. But I don't have much hope because I think the man in the dugout is stubborn, an over thinker and overstates his own importance. Sometimes a good manager has to grab a team by the scruff of the neck and drive it in a certain direction. But they also need to know when to stand back and let the talent around them step forward. Ours doesn't recognise this.

Absolutely nailed it. 

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, ben_the_beast said:

Repating myself and a few others but it's criminal that we are where we are. Injuries have had an impact but they're no excuse. For me the key impacts are as follows

1. Mowbray actively choosing not to bring in a striker in January. I'm sure he's too stubborn not to admit to his mistake, but it's the biggest of the lot. 

2. The signing of Giles. He's looks a good footballer but it's played into the Mowbray handbook of cocking things up. As competition for Pickering an excellent addition. But seeing him line up in attack time and again has had a huge negative impact. It again points to stubbornness and favoritism that it keeps happening. Pickering is clearly one of Mowbrays boys. And Giles his recent signing. They both play the same position yet he wants both in the team. 

3. Diaz injury. It's unfortunate, but we put all our eggs in one basket by not signing a striker. 

4. The persistent use as Buckley as a false 9 and Gallagher out wide. I like Buckley. A lot. I think he's one of the best our academy has produced in a long time. But he couldn't finish his dinner. I'm certain he wasn't a false 9 in our excellent run. He took up the most advanced central position where we were out of possession as he's a good presser. But it was more fluid. As times gone on he's become more advanced and less effective. It pushes Gallagher wider which makes me want to cry.

5. Khadra missing the pen against Sheffield United. That coupled with their last minute winner. Dacky then doing the same against Bristol. As much as we've been poor. There are games in this run that we've dominated, deserved 3 points from and not seen it over the line. Some key moments have gone against us. That's on the players losing their composure. There has been an element of bad luck too. Mowbray has made baffling decisions in this run in. But he's definitely not been a lucky manager in the last few months either. 

6. Post Derby mess. It seems apparent the players took over at half time against Derby. Johnson publicly ridiculed Mowbrays tactics. Wholesale changes and the manager sulked on the touchline as we turned it around. They are a young team but I do think there's some real leaders. Lenihan, Van Hecke, Dacky, Brereton. I genuinely believe after the Derby match just letting the players go and run things would have seen a surge. Mowbray has talked about letting players manage the dressing room before. That's all he needed to do. No tinkering, keep it simple. Speak to a few of those leaders and follow what they felt was needed. Instead he made himself the most important man in the club by imposing his peculiar tactics on the group in the very next game after they had dug us out a hole. What could be more demoralising and halt momentum. 

 

Those are some of the key moments for me. There are others and the odd decisions have just continued. There's been bad luck at times. But the manager has really cocked this up. There's still a chance. We're just outside the playoffs and the thing that brings me hope is our 2 goalscorers being back in Diaz and Dacky. But I don't have much hope because I think the man in the dugout is stubborn, an over thinker and overstates his own importance. Sometimes a good manager has to grab a team by the scruff of the neck and drive it in a certain direction. But they also need to know when to stand back and let the talent around them step forward. Ours doesn't recognise this.

Excellent post. It mirrors mine and many others thoughts but in my case you have stated it far more eloquently than I could. I would really like to see responses from some of Mowbrays supporters.

[roversfan99]

The Derby second half changes do have to be credited to Mowbray, no matter how reluctant people are. A big deal is made of supposed arguments at half time, but im sure players often argue when things arent going well. The first half tactics were totally bizarre but rectified quickly enough to go on to win.

Mowbray definitely showed a lack of flexibility regarding the Buckley false 9 system though this season. It DID work for months but it was reliant on Brereton running in behind, meaning that Buckley not offering a goal threat wasn't half as much of an issue. Giles has also been used strangely, him on the right is bizarre.

I don't necessarily think that Gallagher wide v central is the disparity many make out, he is almost equally poor in either position, and relying on him as our main goal threat was always going to be costly. When he plays central, he doesn't offer more of a goal threat than when wide to be honest, and his inability to bring others into play causes attacks to break down.

[47er]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The Derby second half changes do have to be credited to Mowbray, no matter how reluctant people are. A big deal is made of supposed arguments at half time, but im sure players often argue when things arent going well. The first half tactics were totally bizarre but rectified quickly enough to go on to win.

Mowbray definitely showed a lack of flexibility regarding the Buckley false 9 system though this season. It DID work for months but it was reliant on Brereton running in behind, meaning that Buckley not offering a goal threat wasn't half as much of an issue. Giles has also been used strangely, him on the right is bizarre.

I don't necessarily think that Gallagher wide v central is the disparity many make out, he is almost equally poor in either position, and relying on him as our main goal threat was always going to be costly. When he plays central, he doesn't offer more of a goal threat than when wide to be honest, and his inability to bring others into play causes attacks to break down.

You're too kind as ever. You can't just skate over the first half v Derby by saying its OK cos he sorted it out at halftime and we won.

That line-up was so bizarre it caused the players to be on the verge of revolt. It had no chance of succeeding and every fan knew it and the manager didn't. See Johnson's tweets to back up what I'm saying.

[Guest]

We'll need 4 from 6 IMO. Just isn't happening and this weekend will put the nail in the coffin I think.

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

You're too kind as ever. You can't just skate over the first half v Derby by saying its OK cos he sorted it out at halftime and we won.

That line-up was so bizarre it caused the players to be on the verge of revolt. It had no chance of succeeding and every fan knew it and the manager didn't. See Johnson's tweets to back up what I'm saying.

I have never defended the first half tactics, in the quoted post I said "the first half tactics were totally bizarre." I said at the time that against a team that plays the ball out from the back, having an ageing central midfielder as a false 9 couldn't have been more illogical.

There have been games this season in which we have been competitive, perhaps missing penalties or whatever and I have been critical of the manager because of the result, which is ultimately the bedrock to any post match analysis. Conversely, when we win a game, that fact can't be totally ignored and/or made out to be something that the manager has contributed to. It seems that with Mowbray, he has gone well past the point of being judged from a neutral standpoint. Mowbray (not Venus or the players) chose to bring on Gallagher and Dack and go 4-2-3-1, high pressing, at half time and we won as a result. We have not won enough games in the last few months to criticise the manager fairly over without needing to refuse to credit him on one of the occasions when we did win.

"Caused the players to be on the verge of revolt" is a hyperbolic and speculative stance with nothing to back it up. Johnson's tweet could easily be interpreted as tongue in cheek. The players are still playing for the manager, I think it would be a struggle to suggest otherwise.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The Derby second half changes do have to be credited to Mowbray, no matter how reluctant people are. A big deal is made of supposed arguments at half time, but im sure players often argue when things arent going well. The first half tactics were totally bizarre but rectified quickly enough to go on to win.

Mowbray definitely showed a lack of flexibility regarding the Buckley false 9 system though this season. It DID work for months but it was reliant on Brereton running in behind, meaning that Buckley not offering a goal threat wasn't half as much of an issue. Giles has also been used strangely, him on the right is bizarre.

I don't necessarily think that Gallagher wide v central is the disparity many make out, he is almost equally poor in either position, and relying on him as our main goal threat was always going to be costly. When he plays central, he doesn't offer more of a goal threat than when wide to be honest, and his inability to bring others into play causes attacks to break down.

Happens all the time though. Bristol City, Coventry, Derby. You can't give teams 45 minute headstarts with wank tactics and formations and expect to win games.

What did he do after the shitshow that was Derby's first half performance? Kept formation for start of the Reading game and we should've been 4-0 down at half time.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

I have never defended the first half tactics, in the quoted post I said "the first half tactics were totally bizarre." I said at the time that against a team that plays the ball out from the back, having an ageing central midfielder as a false 9 couldn't have been more illogical.

There have been games this season in which we have been competitive, perhaps missing penalties or whatever and I have been critical of the manager because of the result, which is ultimately the bedrock to any post match analysis. Conversely, when we win a game, that fact can't be totally ignored and/or made out to be something that the manager has contributed to. It seems that with Mowbray, he has gone well past the point of being judged from a neutral standpoint. Mowbray (not Venus or the players) chose to bring on Gallagher and Dack and go 4-2-3-1, high pressing, at half time and we won as a result. We have not won enough games in the last few months to criticise the manager fairly over without needing to refuse to credit him on one of the occasions when we did win.

"Caused the players to be on the verge of revolt" is a hyperbolic and speculative stance with nothing to back it up. Johnson's tweet could easily be interpreted as tongue in cheek. The players are still playing for the manager, I think it would be a struggle to suggest otherwise.

Mowbray getting it right for Derby's second half deserves no praise at all. It'd be like Travis having the best interceptions in the league but the worst passing. Winning the ball back from your own mistake isn't worth much.

[roversfan99]

35 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

Happens all the time though. Bristol City, Coventry, Derby. You can't give teams 45 minute headstarts with wank tactics and formations and expect to win games.

What did he do after the shitshow that was Derby's first half performance? Kept formation for start of the Reading game and we should've been 4-0 down at half time.

But any illogical tactics only conspire to make it more difficult for Mowbray to get a positive result, as you touch on. If we give a team a "headstart" and fail to win or indeed lose the game, then he deserves criticism. If we come back and win, he deserves praise, because his overall tactics across the course of 90 minutes have led to victory.

Take the Reading game, his tactics and management overall ended up with us losing the game, he didn't play the exact same tactics (for example Johnson wasn't a false 9) and he was limited to an extent due to unavailability but his use of tactics especially after Khadra went off early was strange, we played shit, lost and he got lots of deserved criticism. You don't have anyone saying that must be the players or the assistant that chose them strange tactics, the manager is responsible for the tactics whether we win, draw or lose and should be judged accordingly. Unfortunately, we are well past that point of neutrality.

33 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

Mowbray getting it right for Derby's second half deserves no praise at all. It'd be like Travis having the best interceptions in the league but the worst passing. Winning the ball back from your own mistake isn't worth much.

What a strange comparison. If that was the case, I presume that Travis would be praised for his ability to intercept, but heavily criticised for his terrible passing. You've just highlighted a perfect example of how someone can be praised when they get something right/when the end result is positive, and criticised when not. Ultimately that will level out, Travis would be seen as having a very specialist skill but overall would be very limited due to his poor passing, the analysis of Mowbray will or should be judged on where we are after 46 games.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

But any illogical tactics only conspire to make it more difficult for Mowbray to get a positive result, as you touch on. If we give a team a "headstart" and fail to win or indeed lose the game, then he deserves criticism. If we come back and win, he deserves praise, because his overall tactics across the course of 90 minutes have led to victory.

Take the Reading game, his tactics and management overall ended up with us losing the game, he didn't play the exact same tactics (for example Johnson wasn't a false 9) and he was limited to an extent due to unavailability but his use of tactics especially after Khadra went off early was strange, we played shit, lost and he got lots of deserved criticism. You don't have anyone saying that must be the players or the assistant that chose them strange tactics, the manager is responsible for the tactics whether we win, draw or lose and should be judged accordingly. Unfortunately, we are well past that point of neutrality.

What a strange comparison. If that was the case, I presume that Travis would be praised for his ability to intercept, but heavily criticised for his terrible passing. You've just highlighted a perfect example of how someone can be praised when they get something right/when the end result is positive, and criticised when not. Ultimately that will level out, Travis would be seen as having a very specialist skill but overall would be very limited due to his poor passing, the analysis of Mowbray will or should be judged on where we are after 46 games.

We'll have to disagree on the first part. If we play Peterborough and start with a back 5, are outplayed for 85 mins but change to a 433 with 5 mins to go and score and win, that wouldn't deserve praise. I see why you'd say he deserves it, my view would be we should've started with that formation, and that it's actually glaringly obvious.

I don't claim to know exactly what formation we should play, or exactly who should play where, but I do know that starting a game, as he did vs Coventry, with a RB at CB, a RW at RB, a ST at RW, a CAM as ST and a LB at LW, is stupid, yet it seems to take Mowbray 45 mins (minimum) to discover this, every single week. 

He's not a genius, and deserves no credit, for bringing a guy who's scored 50 goals for us and our top scorer this season off the bench last weekend after his shit lineup went in at half time 1-0 down.

The back 5 hasn't worked since Christmas, yet we still start every single game with it, and will start tomorrow with it. He deserves no credit for making a decision half way though a game (or later) that should've been made pre-game. He deserves criticism for getting it so wrong to start with!

Second part was meant more as a one off, if Travis gave it away and then won it back, I wouldn't be up in arms about how good at tackling he is when it was a situation of his own making.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

We'll have to disagree on the first part. If we play Peterborough and start with a back 5, are outplayed for 85 mins but change to a 433 with 5 mins to go and score and win, that wouldn't deserve praise. I see why you'd say he deserves it, my view would be we should've started with that formation, and that it's actually glaringly obvious.

I don't claim to know exactly what formation we should play, or exactly who should play where, but I do know that starting a game, as he did vs Coventry, with a RB at CB, a RW at RB, a ST at RW, a CAM as ST and a LB at LW, is stupid, yet it seems to take Mowbray 45 mins (minimum) to discover this, every single week. 

He's not a genius, and deserves no credit, for bringing a guy who's scored 50 goals for us and our top scorer this season off the bench last weekend after his shit lineup went in at half time 1-0 down.

The back 5 hasn't worked since Christmas, yet we still start every single game with it, and will start tomorrow with it. He deserves no credit for making a decision half way though a game (or later) that should've been made pre-game. He deserves criticism for getting it so wrong to start with!

Second part was meant more as a one off, if Travis gave it away and then won it back, I wouldn't be up in arms about how good at tackling he is when it was a situation of his own making.

I don't think that the problem since Christmas has been using a back 5, we have been reasonably solid even in the last 3 months but I would certainly agree that certain other tactical choices have been wrong. Buckley as a false 9 went from a crucial part in a winning team to blatantly not working, things like Giles on the right, Gallagher playing too much full stop, there are various things that haven't worked that for me have helped to lead to us not scoring in certain games.

But again, our recent form is a perfect example of my point. For a few months we did nothing but win really, his new tactic was working, we won games, he deserves praise. Now it has been leading to draws and losses, he deserves criticism. You can't criticise when we lose and then imply that anyone could have done what he does when we win, in my opinion if you want to judge fairly.

Last Saturday, we didn't win or lose, so its much more mixed. Dack and Brereton weren't fit enough to start, the way we played in the second half with Dack central in essentially a 4-3-3 really wrestled back the initiative after a crap first half.

I certainly don't think that Mowbray is a genius either.

[Sparks Rover]

48 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You can't criticise when we lose and then imply that anyone could have done what he does when we win, in my opinion if you want to judge fairly.

You can.  BBD has been banging all the goals in and getting him wins he normally wouldn't get, now BBD isn't fit or available then he can't win fuck all....shit manager who can't even win the argument with Chile manager to keep him here and stay fit for us.

[Waggy76]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

You can.  BBD has been banging all the goals in and getting him wins he normally wouldn't get, now BBD isn't fit or available then he can't win fuck all....shit manager who can't even win the argument with Chile manager to keep him here and stay fit for us.

Or didn't want too !

[Waggy76]

3 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

We'll need 4 from 6 IMO. Just isn't happening and this weekend will put the nail in the coffin I think.

I think you will be right unfortunately , I forsee another Yeovil game , when Bowyer was manager ..

[Sparks Rover]

56 minutes ago, Waggy76 said:

Or didn't want too !

Well if Moga can't persuade him to push for promotion then we are knackered, no wonder they've all down tools. Shocking management which some of us on here always knew.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

You can.  BBD has been banging all the goals in and getting him wins he normally wouldn't get, now BBD isn't fit or available then he can't win fuck all....shit manager who can't even win the argument with Chile manager to keep him here and stay fit for us.

Winning games based on a Mowbray signing scoring goals in games we won with clean sheets?

He also didn't have an equal say regarding Chile, if Chile call him up, nothing we can do.

Again, like many you seem well beyond the point of judging Mowbray from a fair base, which is your choice.

[chaddyrovers]

Weekend fixtures

Sheffield United vs Bournemouth

Boro vs Hull

Forest vs Birmingham

Preston vs QPR

Fulham vs Coventry Sunday 3pm

Huddersfield vs Luton Monday 7.45pm

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Waggy76 said:

I think you will be right unfortunately , I forsee another Yeovil game , when Bowyer was manager ..

My word… this is always the game I remember from the Bowyer tenure too. Cost us a playoff spot!