Steve Waggott

[SBlue]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Firstly Can I say that Glen Mullan's posts on his meeting is remarkable he remembers almost word for word what was said in such a long meeting. 

The detail is certainly remarkable.

Please don’t take this as a personal slight @glen9mullan, but I’d like to inject a little balanced cynicism into this as a relative outsider looking in; not really knowing you or your story much at all (although others seem to vouch for you glowingly)

From the removed cynics perspective - A lot of this is very positive, you come out of this looking very good (the addition of the Lyndsey zinger for example), and it’s frankly the kind of PR that Waggott’s money just couldn’t buy.

I want to believe all of the positive stuff, but I’m having to take it with a tiny grain of salt while we have the bloke flogging training grounds, running down the value of our assets, and being completely out of touch with his paying public.

I hope you’re correct with all of your info, and the effort is commendable. I look forward to more instalments, and I want to believe.

But with such nuanced conversations where exact wording makes the entire difference - I wish you had told me you’d used a bloody notepad! 🤣

[glen9mullan]

1 hour ago, S8 & Blue said:

The detail is certainly remarkable.

Please don’t take this as a personal slight @glen9mullan, but I’d like to inject a little balanced cynicism into this as a relative outsider looking in; not really knowing you or your story much at all (although others seem to vouch for you glowingly)

From the removed cynics perspective - A lot of this is very positive, you come out of this looking very good (the addition of the Lyndsey zinger for example), and it’s frankly the kind of PR that Waggott’s money just couldn’t buy.

I want to believe all of the positive stuff, but I’m having to take it with a tiny grain of salt while we have the bloke flogging training grounds, running down the value of our assets, and being completely out of touch with his paying public.

I hope you’re correct with all of your info, and the effort is commendable. I look forward to more instalments, and I want to believe.

But with such nuanced conversations where exact wording makes the entire difference - I wish you had told me you’d used a bloody notepad! 🤣

I fully understand your points and couldnt agree more. I have a lot of questions to come and all i'm taking at this stage is i've made contact and opened dialogue.

None of the things he had said, am I endorsing at this stage. It was difficult at times as he went off on a tangent and i had to cut him off and bring him back to the points I was asking.

The meeting started like a speech and for 5 minutes I couldnt get a word in edge, however once I got a word in, the format changed significantly.

Especially when he asked where my list of questions was?

I told him my questions are not rehearsed or the questions which he has answered in 95% of his meetings. I advised him we would barely touch the surface and it was very much the first of a number of meetings I would need, and very much a breaking off the ice sample. 

What I can promise you, is i read msg boards, talk to different fans all the time. I will always endeavour to ask a specific question if someone ask me to, as i'm very mindful I represent no-one bar myself and dont want to potray myself otherwise either on here or to the club.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by glen9mullan

[SBlue]

Appreciate that considered response Glen, looking forward to hearing about the next meeting.

To be honest I just really don’t know what to make of Waggott at all.

He’s an enigma, done some good work and gets good personal reviews but seems so very lacking in other respects.

[bluebruce]

5 hours ago, Silas said:

Can we bin this nonsensical argument though. 

By that reasoning, none of us can comment on player performances post match, unless any of us have personally been professional footballers at Championship level. 

Pears has another howler in goal, tough, you can't say anything unless you've been GK in an FA Cup match.

What, you think the Ewood pitch is looking poor?! Not your place to mention that I'm afraid, unless you've been a top level groundskeeper. 

The food and service was crap in the stands - well pipe down unless you've run a catering operation that serves thousands of people in a matter of hours. 

I could go on...and on....and on. 

We're customers, we have every right to form opinions and views on how we see things from the top of the operation to the bottom. Same in pretty much any industry, but moreso in football I'd argue. 

Attempts to circumvent that just undermines any valid arguments being made. 

Yep. It's essentially a form of ad hominem, as well as appeal to authority, both of which are well known logical fallacies used to distract from not having a convincing counter argument. It makes for very poor quality debate, and indeed is often used on here as an attempt to shut down debate entirely.

[glen9mullan]

1 minute ago, bluebruce said:

Yep. It's essentially a form of ad hominem, as well as appeal to authority, both of which are well known logical fallacies used to distract from not having a convincing counter argument. It makes for very poor quality debate, and indeed is often used on here as an attempt to shut down debate entirely.

Had to get my thesaurus out for this one lol

[bluebruce]

7 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Had to get my thesaurus out for this one lol

🤣 It's more that it's a fairly niche thing really. More people should know about it all though really. Logical fallacies are basically types of arguments that are appealing on the surface but don't really prove anything (or deflect from the main point). Good stuff to know to avoid people getting away with talking cockwaffle at you. I see them on a daily basis here (and elsewhere). Waggott probably used some with you, fairly sure I remember noticing some.

Just googled a beginner's guide to it for you, you (and others) might find it enlightening: https://fallacyinlogic.com/logical-fallacy-definition-and-examples/

(Not read this one myself but I'm sure it will get it across 😛 )

Edited July 22, 2022 by bluebruce

[Sweaty Gussets]

36 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

None of the things he had said, am I endorsing at this stage. It was difficult at times as he went off on a tandem and i had to cut him off and bring him back to the points I was asking.

It speaks to his arrogance that he thought it was acceptable to fuck off on a bike ride half way through the meeting. Where did you cut him off? I imagine he didn't get far😀

[Dan]

I’ve never had a good opinion of Steve Waggott, but I’m very happy he is engaging with the supporters. It’s also great that we’ve got Glen asking the important questions. This kind of relationship can only be good. 
 

Would be even better if we could get Barry and Co. In the same room! 

[glen9mullan]

4 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

It speaks to his arrogance that he thought it was acceptable to fuck off on a bike ride half way through the meeting. Where did you cut him off? I imagine he didn't get far😀

Lmfao ,bloody predictive text.

This is definitely my type of banter, and lightens the mood everytime 

Edited July 22, 2022 by glen9mullan

[rigger]

10 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

It speaks to his arrogance that he thought it was acceptable to fuck off on a bike ride half way through the meeting. Where did you cut him off? I imagine he didn't get far😀

Was it Chaddy on the tandem with him.

[Silas]

44 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Had to get my thesaurus out for this one lol

Thank God you stepped in.

Since he quoted me, I was busy working out how to pretend I understood it. 

[Armchair supporter supremo]

I just dont really understand the full logic behind being able to pay large transfer fees and breaking the wage structure to give big salaries to the occasional 'special signing' but not being able to give vastly  improved contracts to players that are already on the books (when the player is clearly worth every penny) 

 

[DeeCee]

6 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

How can you compare if you haven't done the same role/job? You can only inform a biased opinion in that case. Your experience in the world? So what you are saying is that if you ran a corner shop as a manager/owner then you can compare that business model to running a football club?

If you don't listen to what he has to say and look at documents/review action plans, rad summaries of sports science at the club then how do you form an opinion? Truth is you cannot form an opinion without it as it is not a properly informed view.

Its not about anything he says verbatim, its about your research and information being up to date and then listening to what he says and either agreeing with him because you know it true from other sources, or alternatively, you go away with what he has said do some more research and find corroborating sources to ensure that he is telling it right and how it is or alternatively telling and feeding you a load of horse crap.

But hey, with your vast worldly experience you probably know better to listen to others you have already formed a completely negative view of.

If you pay say, a brickie to build a wall and it turns out poor, surely you can say that, based on other examples of similar brickies?

 

[lraC]

8 hours ago, DeeCee said:

If you pay say, a brickie to build a wall and it turns out poor, surely you can say that, based on other examples of similar brickies?

 

There are plenty of examples of professionals making a mess of things and when challenged by the non professional, they then have to put things right. Have a quick look at the NHS and how much compensation they pay out annually, for professional negligence. People need to be accountable for their actions, when things go wrong. 

[alex l]

9 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

I just dont really understand the full logic behind being able to pay large transfer fees and breaking the wage structure to give big salaries to the occasional 'special signing' but not being able to give vastly  improved contracts to players that are already on the books (when the player is clearly worth every penny) 

 

A marquee signing is exactly that and generally a one off. Without wanting to get all 'Football Manager' , wage budget needs to be adhered to or you knacker your finances. Had Nyambe been given 15k, a lot more of the squad would think they'd be worth that and our top earners would seek more. 

Barcelona are a prime example - and they had one of the world's best 2 players. But by continually increasing Messi's salary, they had to increase everyone else's in relation to it. Now they're 1 billion in debt and selling off future broadcasting rights. 

[islander200]

28 minutes ago, alex l said:

A marquee signing is exactly that and generally a one off. Without wanting to get all 'Football Manager' , wage budget needs to be adhered to or you knacker your finances. Had Nyambe been given 15k, a lot more of the squad would think they'd be worth that and our top earners would seek more. 

Barcelona are a prime example - and they had one of the world's best 2 players. But by continually increasing Messi's salary, they had to increase everyone else's in relation to it. Now they're 1 billion in debt and selling off future broadcasting rights. 

Exactly why talk of breaking the bank to get Phillips to sign a new contract is ridiculous.

Some reckon we should match what a big club can offer, one poster reckoned if spurs or United were to offer him 10k+ a week like they do with other young players then we should match it if we don't want to be the modern day Crewe.

Our senior players not on that money would be going crazy ,plus next time a young player breaks through and has interest from a top 6 club when trying to negotiate a deal with him his agent will be pointing at the money Phillips is on 

[rigger]

If Phillips wants to leave so be it. But have talks with the lad and ask him to sign a contract, point out to Phillips that at least the club and academy will get some money for him that way. Put it to him that the big clubs will still be there even if they have to pay a fee. If he still doesn't agree to sign, let him go with our best wishes for the future.

Ideally we could show him that at the Rovers he has a great chance of playing regular first team football, which is something he may or may not achieve at a bigger club. And he goes for that option.

Edited July 23, 2022 by rigger

[Riverside under the drip]

The main point I take from @glen9mullan's meeting isn't about Waggott. I always got the impression that he wasn't dodgy so much as bang-average. He clearly has never understood his customer base and this has badly affected attendance.

However, I also had the impression that Talbot was 'one of us' who had somehow managed to avoid losing her job in all the madness and was quietly working in our interests. That one reply blows this out of the water. The idea that the (excellent) work of Yasir Sufi is far more important than winning back lapsed fans can be understood. There are thousands of potential fans after all. Reality says though that new, regular fans would number in the hundreds not thousands. I personally have been to several conferences at Turf Moor without wanting to go on the weekly. I've had many memorable parties at St Helen's rugby ground in Swansea without ever buying a ticket to a match.

No, more daft than this is what she came back with. To again ignore the enormous 10,000 hole in our support from happier days in favour of highlighting the (again, commendable) work with Pride and other causes shows a serious lack of awareness.

Photo opportunities and positive engagement feedback shouldn't be prioritised over core results. How many season tickets were purchased as a result of our Pride involvement? Rovers should be for everyone. EVERYONE. We are a true community club and we must embrace and engage the whole community. We should attend every Pride march, every Eid gathering, every big local event. All these vital things though should be treated as separate to the focus on overall consumer uptake (purchase of merchandise or tickets).

Therefore, I now doubt her response to, "Is this board fit for purpose compared to previous ones?". Can her word be taken at face value? I doubt anyone would say their superiors were powerless oafs in front of one of them.

More than Calzaghe vs Kessler in Cardiff some years ago, I long for Mullan vs Waggott, Round 2...

[Dreyski]

14 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

It speaks to his arrogance that he thought it was acceptable to fuck off on a bike ride half way through the meeting. Where did you cut him off? I imagine he didn't get far😀

Artist’s impression of the meeting:

[47er]

20 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Sorry all another point I made, which was more of a point than a question was regarding community engagement.

I stated that the good work being done within the Asian community cannot be allowed to overshadow the bigger picture and the work needed across the whole piece including the thousands who have walked away.

I said that these supporters are not a lost cause, and its not just a simple case of replace and forget.

Lindsay remarked that the town is 40% asian community.

This really got my back up and i said the following.

"Blackburn Rovers is the 10th most successful football club in the English league, its the most successful town club there is. We have global owners, we have played European football and have fans from all over the world. If our efforts cannot be bothered to leave our own doorstep within a 3 mile radius of Ewood for today and tomorrows supporters, sponsors, partners, then its time for people to be moved out and people with a clear vision to be brought in. The great Jack Walker said "think big" , we are currently thinking Sunday league"

She stated she has more time now to support other things and she is getting involved in PRIDE and one or two other things.

I stated this is good, but we need to start seeing traction, and people will judge on what they can see and not what they may see.

While Jack was here, we were actively cultivating support in Lancaster! We took it for granted that our support extended to Chorley and beyond and took in Accrington and eastwards---Ribble Valley etc.

No way did we think we were restricted to Blackburn. 

That 40% of Asians in Blackburn has certainly affected our attendances though and I applaud the efforts Rovers are making to win them over. However, it doesn't stop there.

 

[Mattyblue]

It is just bizarre that as more and more of our fanbase lives outside the town (their own ticket data will tell them that) the club is doing less and less in those areas and seems to think fan engagement begins and ends at the arbitrary BwD borders.

All this lauding of Waggott needs to be dialled down, the bloke has been a complete disaster commercially.

[jim mk2]

On 22/07/2022 at 10:26, glen9mullan said:

However, as i stated to Steve yesterday "There is two Steves, the one I've heard via Media for 5 years and the one i'm sat across from today, the one of 5 years comes across as arrogant, out of touch and whose actions have made me find the need to request a meeting. The one in front of me, is full of passion, drive, ideas and is very marketable"

 

You seem to have been impressed by Waggott in your meetings with him

A word of warning however about him.. and many CEOs like him

These people are in "top" management for a reason, usually because they have very good personal and "people" skills. In other words, they say all the right things to the right people at the right time. They know how to communicate, they know how to ingratiate themselves with people who might be hostile to them

They're brilliant at pulling the wool over the eyes of potential trouble makers, and they know how to deflect and talk their way out of potentially difficult situations. 

Some of them have the skills naturally but most go to business schools where they're taught this sort of stuff, but basically they're excellent PR people. Some people would call them snake-oil salesman. David Cameron was a prime example

I don't think it's the case but is there a possibility you've fallen for his "charms" and been led up the garden path by a man who, through anecdotal evidence (there's a recent example on this thread), can be a real shitbag with fans, continues to make bloody awful decisions at an operating level (season tickets, lack of ground maintainance etc) and has alot of questions to answer over the Brockhall debacle?

It would seem from your posts that you think he's a genuine "good guy" who has the club's best interests at heart. But I'm a cynic about people like him and would never trust any of them. Would like to know your thoughts

 

 

 

[Rogerb]

The only way to judge people like this is by their actions not their words.

[glen9mullan]

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

You seem to have been impressed by Waggott in your meetings with him

A word of warning however about him.. and many CEOs like him

These people are in "top" management for a reason, usually because they have very good personal and "people" skills. In other words, they say all the right things to the right people at the right time. They know how to communicate, they know how to ingratiate themselves with people who might be hostile to them

They're brilliant at pulling the wool over the eyes of potential trouble makers, and they know how to deflect and talk their way out of potentially difficult situations. 

Some of them have the skills naturally but most go to business schools where they're taught this sort of stuff, but basically they're excellent PR people. Some people would call them snake-oil salesman. David Cameron was a prime example

I don't think it's the case but is there a possibility you've fallen for his "charms" and been led up the garden path by a man who, through anecdotal evidence (there's a recent example on this thread), can be a real shitbag with fans, continues to make bloody awful decisions at an operating level (season tickets, lack of ground maintainance etc) and has alot of questions to answer over the Brockhall debacle?

It would seem from your posts that you think he's a genuine "good guy" who has the club's best interests at heart. But I'm a cynic about people like him and would never trust any of them. Would like to know your thoughts

 

 

 

I remain open minded, it was a break the ice meeting.

I always attend meetings suited and booted, as time is important to me, and they need to remain professional.

It was important to me, that the questions were answered fully, and if anything were not the same questions which get asked time and time again which come with generic answers and less meat than a KFC chicken wing.

It was also incredibly important that both of us got value from the meeting which would result in a follow up meeting to keep the dialogue going, and that there is actions to support answers, and a clear plan of re-engagement with the supporters who are concerned/no longer attend.

Throw away comments, Boris Johnson style speeches do not impress me, and i'm pretty sure Steve Waggott knows after meeting one that i'm "ruthless" and dont suffer fools easily.

I genuinely think progress can be made, as this is not the same type of person than the days of top trumps with the likes of Agnew,  who was just a snake, and quite frankly usually walked away with his tail between his legs, as his brain could not compute quick enough.

I believe meetings need to be methodical, have a purpose, and have clear objectives.

Where we are, where we want to get to, and how are we going to get there?

If it was just questions and answers, i'd have little interest in a) attending, b) continuing the communication.

There is obviously some massive issues, our attendances, sponsorship clearly show this.

I'm fortunate that these type of meetings regarding football i've attended quite a lot, from having them with the club, to having them with the top brass at the FA, EFL, Premier League, Parliament, in addition to other executives at other clubs through my previous national council status on the FSF.

I'm first to admit, 10 years ago this was well out of my comfort zone, but as time progresses you evaluate yourself, and look at ways to improve delivery and also being more focused what you want from the said meeting

This weeks meeting I set the following goals.

1. If its wishy washy, i would politely end the meeting and walk out, as i have zero interest in wasteing either mine or his time, we are both busy and i dont need bedazzling with smart speak of no real substance.

2. I wanted to know exactly what power he and the board have, that structure pre GB. (Not got onto current structute yet) .

3. I wanted to know how he got the job, what that process was and importantly who put him forward. (Given previous agent involvement at our club and the former MD of SEM Kentaro being Mowbrays agent)

4. I wanted to read his eyes, his body language.

5. I wanted to ask just a few questions, as too much gets lost in translation and takes away merit/content and can become rather ambigious and easily skirted past.

He has confirmed in writing another meeting, date to be set, and also that he felt the meeting was a good starting block to continue dialogue and see what develops.

Edited July 23, 2022 by glen9mullan

[47er]

Given that Venkys are going nowhere. and therefore nor is Suhail, and nor it seems is Waggot, what we need is some informal little group of 2 or 3 supporters that he meets from time to time and can talk with him. People who can tell him what the fans really think and  what's needed to win some back and create new ones. Plenty of good ideas come up on this forum but there's no mechanism to do anything about them.

Rovers Forum is the nearest we've got but....

One day, when/if 50+ comes in all clubs will have fan input, in the meantime Waggot is operating in a vacuum. He's not a Rovers supporter, he's not from round here, he doesn't really seem to have much clue about what's needed to rebuild this great old club. It starts at the bottom---with the fans.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by 47er