England

[Mattyblue]

7 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I think that's more our failings than anything to do with Italy.

I'm still not over losing that final - the biggest bottle job I've ever seen.

I was over it about 30 seconds after the whistle…

[roverandout]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

I was over it about 30 seconds after the whistle…

I used to sink to my knees after we went out of tournaments but now I'm numb to it

[Mattyblue]

You don’t post like it! 😁

[Wheelton Blue]

8 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

I think I was watching a different game to most people. I thought the whole thing was poor. 

First half we only crafted one chance from open play, only for Grealish to slice it a mile wide. Outside of that we got a scrappy goal from a corner after terrible Italian marking and a gift wrapped penalty, again from a corner. 

I totally disagree with all the superlatives about the first half. In my eyes we simply passed it around with zero intensity and never created any sustained pressure. Italy however were far worse.

Second half they upped the intensity and we couldn't keep hold of the ball. Which is no surprise, because as talented as some of our players are, non them bar the front 3 are agile, technical players capable of dropping a shoulder. Trying to tap it around our defense and a midfield of Rice, Phillips and Bellingham (who is phenomenal but still not of that ilk) was always going to result in us losing possession, as soon as Italy pressed us. 

We got the job done though. As poor as Italy were, it's still not an easy place to go. I just don't think that any aspect of the performance, even the first half was particularly good.

You're not the only one. England were just dull.

[Displaced Rover]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I was over it about 30 seconds after the whistle…

I want England to do well and win something as much as the next bloke but Sunday really put how I feel about the national team v Rovers into perspective.

Feels like a long time since we had such a big game so perhaps I'd sort of forgotten but the way I felt watching us on Sunday, dwarfs anything I've ever felt watching England.

[AllRoverAsia]

9 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

I think I was watching a different game to most people. I thought the whole thing was poor. 

First half we only crafted one chance from open play, only for Grealish to slice it a mile wide. Outside of that we got a scrappy goal from a corner after terrible Italian marking and a gift wrapped penalty, again from a corner. 

I totally disagree with all the superlatives about the first half. In my eyes we simply passed it around with zero intensity and never created any sustained pressure. Italy however were far worse.

Second half they upped the intensity and we couldn't keep hold of the ball. Which is no surprise, because as talented as some of our players are, non them bar the front 3 are agile, technical players capable of dropping a shoulder. Trying to tap it around our defense and a midfield of Rice, Phillips and Bellingham (who is phenomenal but still not of that ilk) was always going to result in us losing possession, as soon as Italy pressed us. 

We got the job done though. As poor as Italy were, it's still not an easy place to go. I just don't think that any aspect of the performance, even the first half was particularly good.

We were passing it around at the back, not too accurately at times, at a slower pace than Rovers do on their worst day.

Phillips starts for England? How, why .. the game passed him by all game. He was so crap he didn't even manage to get booked.

It wasn't much if a game overall.

[Dreams of 1995]

9 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

With Italy it's either boom or bust, and they're bust at the moment. A good win for England tonight but a meaningless list of players "playing regular football around Europe for the best teams" doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

If we are discussing the current Italian football team then a list of its current squad is hardly meaningless...

Although, I would say that 2010, 2014 and 2018 are meaningless given that only 3 players survive from the 2018 squad (Bonucci, Jorginho and Veratti) and none from the 2014 and 2010 squad

In my opinion this Italian team are probably the third best in Europe, behind France and Portugal

[Mattyblue]

7 minutes ago, Displaced Rover said:

I want England to do well and win something as much as the next bloke but Sunday really put how I feel about the national team v Rovers into perspective.

Feels like a long time since we had such a big game so perhaps I'd sort of forgotten but the way I felt watching us on Sunday, dwarfs anything I've ever felt watching England.

Rovers lose a big game and I’ll go to bed skriking and wake up still sobbing.

England? ‘Ah well, pass us the remote’.

[AllRoverAsia]

France are miles ahead of all the rest who like England and this new chucked together Italy are bang average at best.

Last night's game was like a dish of cold rice pudding on a wet winters evening. Not exciting or tasty.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

9 hours ago, superniko said:

“Onslaught”

They had 1 shot on target all game, and had a goal less on xG too despite the extra man for 30 minutes. Awful from Italy (and the ref)

I thought Shaw got sent off with 10 minutes to go.

[Dreams of 1995]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

They obviously have a number of players playing at a good level but compared to previous teams they are massively inferior and also aren't one of the best teams at international level at the moment, as proven by their inability again to qualify for the last World Cup. I thought it was very interesting that although 3 Serie A clubs are in the last 8 of the Champions League, there are only 7 Italians betwen them.

They still have a very canny midfield bur are lacking up front even compared to the team that won the Euros. Pelligrini is better suited in midfield, Berardi is nothing special and they are looking weak up front hence their desperate intervention to get an Argentinian to declare for them. Scamacca has struggled in the Prem and Gnonto is a player with a very bright future and I rate him but he is not comparable to our wide men. They miss Chiesa who stood out in those Euros. I also think they miss the experience that they have lost in central defence especially with Bonucci out injured.

That being said, to win in Italy is certainly an impressive result.

You don't think they are one of the best? They are the current reigning European Champions. The most prestigious and competitive international continental tournament.

Their qualification of the WC22 they found themselves unlucky. A few bad draws against teams ruled them out and then the N Macedonia game was a madness. They didn't lose a single game in qualifying. Had they won the game vs N Macedonia they'd have found themselves in a play off with Portugal. That's a colossal tie for a world cup qualifying knock out...before the tournament has even begun! Italy had Switzerland in that group, who made it through to the knock outs before being unfortunate against....yep, Portugal

In 2014 they found themselves in a group with Spain who absolutely flew through them groups! I think it was a record breaking run by them if my memory is right...although ended up being hammered by Brazil that year. Even so, Italy once again found themselves foul of the harsh European qualifying rules of a knock out game. The only game they lost that qualifying campaign was vs Spain

As for the bit in bold, is it interesting because Mancini said it? I mean, you could say that about England right? In Arsenal's last EPL game 4 were English - Saka, Holding, White and Ramsdale.

In City's last game against RB Leipzeig two starters were English - Grealish and Stones. Although Foden and Phillips got a few minutes.

For Man Utd there was 5. Shaw, Rashford, Maguire, Sancho and Wann Bisakka.

It's hardly head and shoulders above the current reigning Italian teams. His comment was a retort to Southgate criticising the overall lack of English players in the EPL - saying it dropped to 28% of the total share in weeks gone by. In contrast Serie A have a +50% share of Italian nationals. They also have a larger share of players playing abroad than us, although let's be honest Brazilians, Spanish, French and Portugese players tend to be the predominant nationality in the top leagues these days. England is improving though - with Bellingham and Sancho at Dortmund and now Bynoe-Gittens

I don't agree with what you say about the players. Berardi got most assists in Serie A last season - and scored the penalty in the final - whilst Pellegrini is loved by Mourniho. So I think I'm going to stick with Jose on this one, he tends to know a player

And Acerbi!! You say they miss experience but the bloke is 35 and has captained Lazio and has been ever present in an Inter team now in the CL QF....

You're right, it is impressive, so let's not caveat it with the usual "yeah but they are poor anyway". A good win against a good group of players, playing under an impressive coach in Mancini

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[Dreams of 1995]

23 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Rovers lose a big game and I’ll go to bed skriking and wake up still sobbing.

England? ‘Ah well, pass us the remote’.

You've never said 🤐

[Mattyblue]

Ha. Well if none of us repeated ourselves it would be pretty quiet on here…

[roverandout]

31 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

If we are discussing the current Italian football team then a list of its current squad is hardly meaningless...

Although, I would say that 2010, 2014 and 2018 are meaningless given that only 3 players survive from the 2018 squad (Bonucci, Jorginho and Veratti) and none from the 2014 and 2010 squad

In my opinion this Italian team are probably the third best in Europe, behind France and Portugal

Really? I agree that they aren't bad but in no way are Portugal or Italy as good as England.  Southgate is the problem.  Talent wise we are better than both

[roverandout]

27 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Rovers lose a big game and I’ll go to bed skriking and wake up still sobbing.

England? ‘Ah well, pass us the remote’.

Sad attitude.  When rovers were shit. England doing well at the euros kept me going

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Really? I agree that they aren't bad but in no way are Portugal or Italy as good as England.  Southgate is the problem.  Talent wise we are better than both

I agree about Southgate. Too negative by far.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 minute ago, roverandout said:

Really? I agree that they aren't bad but in no way are Portugal or Italy as good as England.  Southgate is the problem.  Talent wise we are better than both

I have tried to exclude us out of it, otherwise I'd put us first rover........

But in all seriousness, I think we sit in that bracket behind France and Portugal. It is us, Spain and Italy vying for that third place. Portugal's national team is actually frightening.

They have Goncalo Ramos coming through - who will be a PL player next year - with Leao on the bench. Starting for them up front? Felix and Ronaldo.

Their midfield is something we can only dream of to. Silva, Fernandes, Neves, Mario. The only place they probably lack is centre back, with only really Dias as world class. But yeah I would take Portugal's squad over England any day of the week.

All this said though I fancied us against France and I'd more than fancy us against Portugal. I honestly think this England squad is great - maybe not the most talented on paper but it feels like an actual squad. We just need to get over this hurdle of putting big teams to bed. My fear is for all of Southgate's good he can bottle a big game

[Mattyblue]

What’s sad about it? Rovers is my number one hobby, a massive part of my life, my identity. A deep connection to the club as a fifth generation match goer.

Why would I have the same connection to a load of big 6 players on tele who everyone forgets about in the three months between games.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

What’s sad about it? Rovers is my number one hobby, a massive part of my life, my identity. A deep connection to the club as a fifth generation match goer.

Why would I have the same connection to a load of big 6 players on tele?

 

I get where you are coming from

For me, this big 6 mentality is a skin that this England squad has shredded. I have been reinvigorated lately by England. Our success probably plays a part in it

I was devastated after the Italian and France games. Just as I have been in Rovers many disappointments lately

For me, what I love most about England, is getting into the city centre on that day, standing with a load of English people I otherwise wouldn't do and all coming together with a passion for the country and football

[Mattyblue]

Fair enough, each to their own. I find it interesting as much as anything as I just don’t connect with that team at any emotional level. Probably equivalent to Team GB at the Olympics, hope they do well but it’s only something to watch to pass the time before Rovers is back on.

[chaddyrovers]

26 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Really? I agree that they aren't bad but in no way are Portugal or Italy as good as England.  Southgate is the problem.  Talent wise we are better than both

How is Southgate the problem when we problem when we produce our best tournament results under him since 1966? 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

How is Southgate the problem when we problem when we produce our best tournament results under him since 1966? 

Too negative. If you want evidence - the second half last night. Playing for a 2=0 win from the 46th minute. The second coming of Tony Mowbray.

[roversfan99]

30 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You don't think they are one of the best? They are the current reigning European Champions. The most prestigious and competitive international continental tournament.

Their qualification of the WC22 they found themselves unlucky. A few bad draws against teams ruled them out and then the N Macedonia game was a madness. They didn't lose a single game in qualifying. Had they won the game vs N Macedonia they'd have found themselves in a play off with Portugal. That's a colossal tie for a world cup qualifying knock out...before the tournament has even begun! Italy had Switzerland in that group, who made it through to the knock outs before being unfortunate against....yep, Portugal

In 2014 they found themselves in a group with Spain who absolutely flew through them groups! I think it was a record breaking run by them if my memory is right...although ended up being hammered by Brazil that year. Even so, Italy once again found themselves foul of the harsh European qualifying rules of a knock out game. The only game they lost that qualifying campaign was vs Spain

As for the bit in bold, is it interesting because Mancini said it? I mean, you could say that about England right? In Arsenal's last EPL game 4 were English - Saka, Holding, White and Ramsdale.

In City's last game against RB Leipzeig two starters were English - Grealish and Stones. Although Foden and Phillips got a few minutes.

For Man Utd there was 5. Shaw, Rashford, Maguire, Sancho and Wann Bisakka.

It's hardly head and shoulders above the current reigning Italian teams. His comment was a retort to Southgate criticising the overall lack of English players in the EPL - saying it dropped to 28% of the total share in weeks gone by. In contrast Serie A have a +50% share of Italian nationals. They also have a larger share of players playing abroad than us, although let's be honest Brazilians, Spanish, French and Portugese players tend to be the predominant nationality in the top leagues these days. England is improving though - with Bellingham and Sancho at Dortmund and now Bynoe-Gittens

I don't agree with what you say about the players. Berardi got most assists in Serie A last season - and scored the penalty in the final - whilst Pellegrini is loved by Mourniho. So I think I'm going to stick with Jose on this one, he tends to know a player

And Acerbi!! You say they miss experience but the bloke is 35 and has captained Lazio and has been ever present in an Inter team now in the CL QF....

You're right, it is impressive, so let's not caveat it with the usual "yeah but they are poor anyway". A good win against a good group of players, playing under an impressive coach in Mancini

No I don't think that Italy are one of the best at the moment, but I do think that it was an impressive win last night especially away from home hence why I cannot fathom the over-emotional responses of @roverandout reacting so strangely to winning the hardest game of the group. We will qualify for the Euros, there is little doubt about that as half of the continent will almost, but it was still a bit of a statement to go to Naples and win last night, we were much the better side in the first half and held strong in the second.

Italy are poor compared to the Italian sides in my life time (admittedly quite a high bar) and they haven't qualified for two recent tournaments no matter how that is dressed up. North Macedonia are not a team you should be losing to if you are one of the elite and Switzerland are always at a consistent level whereby they will always struggle to match the best teams around, a solid and organised side but nothing special.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they aren't a squad full of players playing in top leagues. I don't necessarily think that the 3 Italian sides going through means that Italian sides are particularly strong at the moment, obviously it is very draw dependant and considering who they could have got, the Milan sides got decent last 16 ties, Napoli are one of the best teams in Europe at the moment but you look through their side and the majority are not Italian. I sometimes have on Serie A games of a Saturday or Sunday evening and I don't think that the standard is comparable say to the Premier League.

England do have a fairly considerably better set of players IMO at the moment compared to Italy, looking at yesterday's side only Phillips and Maguire are the questionable choices, plus Pickford is not as good as Ramsdale (or Pope) but has obviously got Southgate's trust. But beyond those starters, we have Foden, Rashford, Sterling etc who are obviously a couple of levels up from the likes of Scamacca and Gnonto, in the area where I think Italy are probably weakest. At centre back, that Bonucci and Chiellini partnership was crucial in those Euro's and with one ageing and injured and the other no longer an option, I do think they are much weaker there too. Beside England, Portugal and France, I also think the likes of Spain and probably even a Germany side in transition are stronger than Italy in terms of players, possibly Holland too. Italy are a level below that.

[ben_the_beast]

47 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You don't think they are one of the best? They are the current reigning European Champions. The most prestigious and competitive international continental tournament.

Their qualification of the WC22 they found themselves unlucky. A few bad draws against teams ruled them out and then the N Macedonia game was a madness. They didn't lose a single game in qualifying. Had they won the game vs N Macedonia they'd have found themselves in a play off with Portugal. That's a colossal tie for a world cup qualifying knock out...before the tournament has even begun! Italy had Switzerland in that group, who made it through to the knock outs before being unfortunate against....yep, Portugal

In 2014 they found themselves in a group with Spain who absolutely flew through them groups! I think it was a record breaking run by them if my memory is right...although ended up being hammered by Brazil that year. Even so, Italy once again found themselves foul of the harsh European qualifying rules of a knock out game. The only game they lost that qualifying campaign was vs Spain

As for the bit in bold, is it interesting because Mancini said it? I mean, you could say that about England right? In Arsenal's last EPL game 4 were English - Saka, Holding, White and Ramsdale.

In City's last game against RB Leipzeig two starters were English - Grealish and Stones. Although Foden and Phillips got a few minutes.

For Man Utd there was 5. Shaw, Rashford, Maguire, Sancho and Wann Bisakka.

It's hardly head and shoulders above the current reigning Italian teams. His comment was a retort to Southgate criticising the overall lack of English players in the EPL - saying it dropped to 28% of the total share in weeks gone by. In contrast Serie A have a +50% share of Italian nationals. They also have a larger share of players playing abroad than us, although let's be honest Brazilians, Spanish, French and Portugese players tend to be the predominant nationality in the top leagues these days. England is improving though - with Bellingham and Sancho at Dortmund and now Bynoe-Gittens

I don't agree with what you say about the players. Berardi got most assists in Serie A last season - and scored the penalty in the final - whilst Pellegrini is loved by Mourniho. So I think I'm going to stick with Jose on this one, he tends to know a player

And Acerbi!! You say they miss experience but the bloke is 35 and has captained Lazio and has been ever present in an Inter team now in the CL QF....

You're right, it is impressive, so let's not caveat it with the usual "yeah but they are poor anyway". A good win against a good group of players, playing under an impressive coach in Mancini

In terms of the quality Italy possess, individually they're like Italian teams of old with a lot of good defensive players, although past Italian teams had elite defensive players. 

Going forwards they look woeful. No creativity, or flair players. It says a lot that they had a 23 year old Argentinian leading the line. Would he really have pledged his allegiance to Italy if he thought he had a chance of playing for Argentina...

I don't think they're completely crap but they are a very poor side compared with Italian sides of old. It reminds me of England's so called 'golden' generation. Lots of players who can mix it up but completely imbalanced. Those players only looked good at their clubs when surrounded by foreign imports into the Premier League who were far more technically gifted. Mancini literally said this before the match. That kids don't play street football anymore and as a result they are technically inferior. 

[ben_the_beast]

17 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Too negative. If you want evidence - the second half last night. Playing for a 2=0 win from the 46th minute. The second coming of Tony Mowbray.

There is a trend in international football where you'll be successful if you are cautious and make yourselves hard to beat. To be fair, the evidence points to this being true. 

The issue will only get worse with Fifa/Uefa expanding competitions whereby the best third place teams can qualify. Do not lose and you can progress. That then sets the tone for the knockout stages. I might be incorrect in saying this but I think Portugal won the Euros without winning a single one of their group games. 

It amazes me how the powers that be do not consider the impact their decisions has on the quality of their product. Its simply, bigger/more is better.