England

[frosty]

The current Italy pool of players is better than around 2015-2017, which was masked a bit by an excellent defence and Conte squeezing every last drop out of what was overall a limited group at Euro 2016.

Obviously it's not a patch on the team stacked with legends of 20 odd years ago, but that's the case for a lot of countries. That Italy team would be the best national team in the world if it were playing now.

They did have a few injuries for last night, players that would surely have started (Bastoni, Chiesa, possibly Raspadori). Despite that Mancini got the starting eleven wrong IMO - and is possibly running out of credit after the Euros win. Picking a 35 and 32 year old to start at CB, none of which are even experienced internationally, is pointless when you've been talking about a rebuild. You may as well still pick Bonucci. It'll be Bastoni and probably a promising youngster called Scalvini there going forward, but there were still other options for last night. Tonali should be ahead of Jorginho now as part of the midfield. Pellegrini is out of form, though nice little through ball for the goal, whereas Gnonto is always a handful.

[chaddyrovers]

29 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Too negative. If you want evidence - the second half last night. Playing for a 2=0 win from the 46th minute. The second coming of Tony Mowbray.

Not for me. Get his tactics and subs spot on last night. Italy second half performance much better and much improved 

[Dreams of 1995]

8 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

In terms of the quality Italy possess, individually they're like Italian teams of old with a lot of good defensive players, although past Italian teams had elite defensive players. 

Going forwards they look woeful. No creativity, or flair players. It says a lot that they had a 23 year old Argentinian leading the line. Would he really have pledged his allegiance to Italy if he thought he had a chance of playing for Argentina...

I don't think they're completely crap but they are a very poor side compared with Italian sides of old. It reminds me of England's so called 'golden' generation. Lots of players who can mix it up but completely imbalanced. Those players only looked good at their clubs when surrounded by foreign imports into the Premier League who were far more technically gifted. Mancini literally said this before the match. That kids don't play street football anymore and as a result they are technically inferior. 

There's a long line of foreign born players who have elected to play for Italy, and been very successful

Jorginho for example is Brazilian

Emerson, who played left back in their Euro winning squad - Brazilian

Thiago Motta. Brazilian.

I think the most famous example is Camorensi, who was Argentine, and won the World Cup with Italy

In this respect it really isn't out of the norm for Italian sides to feature foreign born players: Di Matteo, Rossi, Eder etc etc

They are definitely lacking in that forward department compared to the sides of old: Inzaghi, Del Piero, Vieri etc

But I think this dearth of talent is across Europe - most only have one or two good strikers these days. And like Mancini says, the days of street football are gone in Europe. He referenced South American teams, and how they still play, and continue to churn our them strong and skilful attacking players because of it

I still think this Italian team is one of the best in Europe. Portugal and France ahead of them. Spain, us and Italy are all pretty close with Holland not far behind. But the problem with Holland is they really have nothing outside of the starting 11

[superniko]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I thought Shaw got sent off with 10 minutes to go.

Ha, my bad, but the point still stands. There was no ‘onslaught’. Italy were useless and we never felt any sort of pressure at all. 
England were poor 2nd half, but Italy did nothing to take advantage of it 

(I could have claimed my extra man comment was in reference of the referee 😁 )

[superniko]

49 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I get where you are coming from

For me, this big 6 mentality is a skin that this England squad has shredded. I have been reinvigorated lately by England. Our success probably plays a part in it

I was devastated after the Italian and France games. Just as I have been in Rovers many disappointments lately

For me, what I love most about England, is getting into the city centre on that day, standing with a load of English people I otherwise wouldn't do and all coming together with a passion for the country and football

Agree there is a different feel to this lot than 5-10 years ago, just a lot more likeable. I can get behind Bellingham, Kane, Saka, Foden, Rashford so much more than the likes of Terry, Rio, Lampard, Rooney. They were just so hard to like.

Disagree about the Portugal post earlier, I think we’re superior to them in ever position except perhaps CB. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Mancini is right about the street football.
I live facing a large common - ideal for football. Enough for 4 football pitches.  Not far away is “ Lenny Barn “. It was given to the town by a rich local businessman a century ago for the youth of the town to enjoy. It’s a huge area that had 3 football pitches, 2 rugby pitches and a cricket pitch when I was playing . I lived on there as a young lad. We played football until it went dark. 12 a side games - first team to score 20 wins etc. They recently built a modern all weather kick pitch there as well, ideal for 4 a side.. 

Nobody ever plays on any of it now apart from Asian lads playing on the cricket pitch.

No wonder we aren’t producing the Bryan Douglas’s , the Gazza’s, the Stan Bowles, Tony Currie, Duncan McKenzies etc etc any more.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[LeftWinger]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Not for me. Get his tactics and subs spot on last night. Italy second half performance much better and much improved 

Not sure how you can say he got the second half spot on?

They went from being completely dominant in the first half - to not having a single shot or corner in the second half.

[Sweaty Gussets]

12 hours ago, roverandout said:

Who would you take, prime Shearer or prime kane? 

Sam Gallagher. 

[Displaced Rover]

3 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Sam Gallagher. 

He works hard...

[wilsdenrover]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Ha. Well if none of us repeated ourselves it would be pretty quiet on here…

I agree

[wilsdenrover]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Ha. Well if none of us repeated ourselves it would be pretty quiet on here…

I agree

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

24 minutes ago, Displaced Rover said:

He works hard...

Or - he’s hard work.

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

How is Southgate the problem when we problem when we produce our best tournament results under him since 1966? 

 

Several things can be true at the same time. For instance it can be true that i) Southgate has been brilliant in sorting out the off the field problems that have typically followed England, ii) managed to get to the latter stages of tournaments and iii) but has still been a hinderance when it comes to winning the big games towards the back end. 

 

2018 - Despite getting to the semis we actually failed to win more games than we won after 90 mins. Lost to Belgium, twice. Lost to Croatia despite them having been twice previously taken to extra time. We were a hairs breadth from being knocked out by Colombia on pens. We struggled against every decent team, bar Sweden, and had an unbelievably kind run to the last four. 

 

2021 - We obviously managed to reach the final, which is no mean feat, but he had some real advantages here too. The squad of players at his disposal was stronger on paper than any of the teams we were coming up against - including Italy - and it was for all intents and purposes a home tournament. Huge credit for a deserved win vs Germany, but the final is a massive missed opportunity.

 

2022 - Happy to admit that we were a bit unlucky in the France game. It still remains true though that we were knocked out as soon as we played anyone good. 

 

There are plenty of good things you can say about him too, but his record doesn't absolve him from criticism. Quite the opposite, actually. 

[benhben]

I think Southgate has done a good job for England and our recent progress at tournaments shows this, but I firmly believe that he is too cautious minded to really push us towards winning something. I also think he's had one of the best pools of players of any manager in recent history, and any half decent manager would have got us pretty far in all those tournaments. 

The Euro final at Wembley was there fore the taking. 1-0 up and tried to sit back from about 30 minutes onwards. 

Last night, dominate the first half and second half barely get out of our half. Yes Italy played better 2nd half, but this can only be an instruction from the manager. We won the game so fair play, but it made for a harder finish than it needed to IMO. 

I wouldnt loose any sleep if Southgate left, apart from Im not sure what other decent managers are available and would be interested in international football. 

[Dreams of 1995]

12 minutes ago, benhben said:

I think Southgate has done a good job for England and our recent progress at tournaments shows this, but I firmly believe that he is too cautious minded to really push us towards winning something. I also think he's had one of the best pools of players of any manager in recent history, and any half decent manager would have got us pretty far in all those tournaments. 

The Euro final at Wembley was there fore the taking. 1-0 up and tried to sit back from about 30 minutes onwards. 

Last night, dominate the first half and second half barely get out of our half. Yes Italy played better 2nd half, but this can only be an instruction from the manager. We won the game so fair play, but it made for a harder finish than it needed to IMO. 

I wouldnt loose any sleep if Southgate left, apart from Im not sure what other decent managers are available and would be interested in international football. 

The big one who has said he wanted it before is Jose Mourinho 

The problem is he has probably fallen out with most of the English players 😂

And he wouldn’t fit the FA mould. I’d like it though. Mourinho gets trophies 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[benhben]

6 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The big one who has said he wanted it before is Jose Mourinho 

The problem is he has probably fallen out with most of the English players 😂

And he wouldn’t fit the FA mould. I’d like it though. Mourinho gets trophies 

Not sure Mourinho is just a better version of Southgate. Very much in the keep it tight and win 1-0 category. Id have liked Eddie Howe before Newcastle snapped him up.

Edited March 24, 2023 by benhben

[jim mk2]

2 hours ago, frosty said:

The current Italy pool of players is better than around 2015-2017, which was masked a bit by an excellent defence and Conte squeezing every last drop out of what was overall a limited group at Euro 2016.

 

Is it?

They haven't qualified for the past two World Cups and Italy's Euro 2020 triumph (England's abysmal failure) cannot be framed as anything other than an anomaly, one made all the more unbelievable by Serie A's struggles to remain relevant in continental competition.

No Italian team has won a major European triumph since Jose Mourinho's Inter lifted the Champions League in 2010 and the golden years of Serie A are long gone because of incompetence, corruption, gross financial mismanagement and a lack of foresight

Mancini has questioned why Italian clubs never picked up the likes of Gnoto (sp?) at Leeds and Sacchi said that "Italian football suffers from cultural backwardness, There are no new ideas. Other nations are evolving but we are stuck 60 years in the past. The problem here is institutional."

England won in Italy for the first time in 60 years last night - that's how low Italian football has sunk. The second half revival (England sitting back as usual - memo to Gareth) offered some hope for them but, without another boom and bust scenario like 2020, I I don't see a big revival any time soon

 

 

[frosty]

22 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Is it?

They haven't qualified for the past two World Cups and Italy's Euro 2020 triumph (England's abysmal failure) cannot be framed as anything other than an anomaly, one made all the more unbelievable by Serie A's struggles to remain relevant in continental competition.

No Italian team has won a major European triumph since Jose Mourinho's Inter lifted the Champions League in 2010 and the golden years of Serie A are long gone because of incompetence, corruption, gross financial mismanagement and a lack of foresight

Mancini has questioned why Italian clubs never picked up the likes of Gnoto (sp?) at Leeds and Sacchi said that "Italian football suffers from cultural backwardness, There are no new ideas. Other nations are evolving but we are stuck 60 years in the past. The problem here is institutional."

England won in Italy for the first time in 60 years last night - that's how low Italian football has sunk. The second half revival (England sitting back as usual - memo to Gareth) offered some hope for them but, without another boom and bust scenario like 2020, I I don't see a big revival any time soon

 

 

The current crop of players (not necessarily the team that played last night) are better than the period I mentioned, which does cover the failure to qualify for the 2018 World Cup under a manager that should never have been near the job (it'd be like England appointing somebody like Steve Bruce at his age now).

Things are never as bad as they seem - that failure to qualify for the 2018 WC preceded something which would have seemed impossible at the time, a world record unbeaten run (not just the seven games in the tournament) where they deservedly won the Euros. You say England's failure but that's only the final. Italy had sailed through the group before knocking out the likes of Belgium and Spain. They were deserved winners of the tournament. 

Yes England won last night, deservedly so after the first half showing. But they've played each other four times in the last couple of years. Both teams have won one (by one goal) and the other two have been draws. Two played in England, two in Italy. "That's how low Italian football has sunk" is OTT.

The domestic leagues are often separate issues, e.g. England's last failure to qualify for a tournament coming in the middle of the Premier League's last peak before now of 2005-2009. The decline of Serie A years ago from possibly the strongest domestic league there's ever been was indeed for the reasons you've given. But it's worked its way back up well enough to the point where it's very competitive at the top (Napoli are about to make it four different winners in the last four seasons), attendances are finally booming and no country has more representatives in the quarter finals of the three European competitions this season. That's all without having gulf or state-owned clubs and bottom half teams that can spend £30m on a player without anyone batting an eyelid.

[roverandout]

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

There's a long line of foreign born players who have elected to play for Italy, and been very successful

Jorginho for example is Brazilian

Emerson, who played left back in their Euro winning squad - Brazilian

Thiago Motta. Brazilian.

I think the most famous example is Camorensi, who was Argentine, and won the World Cup with Italy

In this respect it really isn't out of the norm for Italian sides to feature foreign born players: Di Matteo, Rossi, Eder etc etc

They are definitely lacking in that forward department compared to the sides of old: Inzaghi, Del Piero, Vieri etc

But I think this dearth of talent is across Europe - most only have one or two good strikers these days. And like Mancini says, the days of street football are gone in Europe. He referenced South American teams, and how they still play, and continue to churn our them strong and skilful attacking players because of it

I still think this Italian team is one of the best in Europe. Portugal and France ahead of them. Spain, us and Italy are all pretty close with Holland not far behind. But the problem with Holland is they really have nothing outside of the starting 11

I really wouldn't swap rice or bellend for any of portugals midfield 

[roverandout]

3 hours ago, superniko said:

Agree there is a different feel to this lot than 5-10 years ago, just a lot more likeable. I can get behind Bellingham, Kane, Saka, Foden, Rashford so much more than the likes of Terry, Rio, Lampard, Rooney. They were just so hard to like.

Disagree about the Portugal post earlier, I think we’re superior to them in ever position except perhaps CB. 

I agree.  Centreback wise there's not much difference bar of course Dias. Out fullbacks are better. Better keeper options.  Attack isn't too far apart.  But I really wouldn't swap Bellingham or rice for any of their midfield.  We've had better tournaments than them in the last 3

[roversfan99]

Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes and Ruben Dias would get into our team, likely Joao Cancelo too. I think Neves v Rice would be a judgement call.

[Dreams of 1995]

Palhinha has been having a great season at Fulham too. He'd be in over Phillips

Their youth is fantastic: Nuno Mendes, Vitinha, Goncalo Ramos, Leao. All really good players

 

[speeeeeeedie]

2 hours ago, frosty said:

The current crop of players (not necessarily the team that played last night) are better than the period I mentioned, which does cover the failure to qualify for the 2018 World Cup under a manager that should never have been near the job (it'd be like England appointing somebody like Steve Bruce at his age now).

Things are never as bad as they seem - that failure to qualify for the 2018 WC preceded something which would have seemed impossible at the time, a world record unbeaten run (not just the seven games in the tournament) where they deservedly won the Euros. You say England's failure but that's only the final. Italy had sailed through the group before knocking out the likes of Belgium and Spain. They were deserved winners of the tournament. 

Yes England won last night, deservedly so after the first half showing. But they've played each other four times in the last couple of years. Both teams have won one (by one goal) and the other two have been draws. Two played in England, two in Italy. "That's how low Italian football has sunk" is OTT.

The domestic leagues are often separate issues, e.g. England's last failure to qualify for a tournament coming in the middle of the Premier League's last peak before now of 2005-2009. The decline of Serie A years ago from possibly the strongest domestic league there's ever been was indeed for the reasons you've given. But it's worked its way back up well enough to the point where it's very competitive at the top (Napoli are about to make it four different winners in the last four seasons), attendances are finally booming and no country has more representatives in the quarter finals of the three European competitions this season. That's all without having gulf or state-owned clubs and bottom half teams that can spend £30m on a player without anyone batting an eyelid.

Good post. 

You mention England failing to qualify for Euro 2008 and the strength of the Prem between 2005-09. Each year featured an English team in the final with both Chelsea and Man U contesting it in 2008.  2018-22 is the same, yet the national team is doing well. 

England were also dominant in Europe in the 70's and did not qualify for 2 world cups. It's an interesting juxtaposition. 

[speeeeeeedie]

3 hours ago, benhben said:

Not sure Mourinho is just a better version of Southgate. Very much in the keep it tight and win 1-0 category. Id have liked Eddie Howe before Newcastle snapped him up.

Howe will get his chance. 

Mourinho would have bene good 10 years ago, but is way past his peak. 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Not sure how you can say he got the second half spot on?

They went from being completely dominant in the first half - to not having a single shot or corner in the second half.

We were away against a very good team and 2 nil up. We played the game situation well second half. Southgate after the sending off was good and did Italy created a chance after we went down to 10 men. No we didnt