England

[Mattyblue]

That Euro 96 team was pretty bloody good, had about 6 captains in it. 

[Gav]

8 minutes ago, Displaced Rover said:

You think Robson, Venables and Hoddle had comparable squads to Southgate? Laughable.

Capello had a good squad granted, but again, no cohesion as noted in my initial post.

The Euro 96 squad was probably the best England squad we've ever produced, I'm surprised you think thats laughable, did you see them?

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Gav

[RoverDom]

7 minutes ago, Displaced Rover said:

You think Robson, Venables and Hoddle had comparable squads to Southgate? Laughable.

Capello had a good squad granted, but again, no cohesion as noted in my initial post.

Surely cohesion comes from the manager and the players he picks? 

[roversfan99]

The thing is, its all well and good saying hes the most successful manager this side of 1966. The problem with that is that it assumes that every manager since has had equal standards of squads to utilise.

I also think that what he has been best at as England manager is creating a harmony and team spirit which was particularly evident as the team developed in the early years.

The current squad is right up there because not only is it packed full of great players but it is well balanced. The team of the early 2000s had some special players but it had no balance, a lot of the better players wanted to do the same things and we had players like Vassell on the bench. This squad isnt perfect either (I think its short of holding midfielders, beyond Stones the centre backs arent at the very top level either) but no international side is perfectly balanced. And going back to that harmony point, key figures in those early days have created blind spots in Southgates judgement;  Maguire, Phillips, Henderson and to a lesser extent Pickford all are being out performed yet repeatedly not only are in squads but regularly feature.

When Southgate finally does leave, he wont go into a big club job which says a lot. We may very well look back at these years with such a good pack of talent (especially as Kane hasnt got THAT long at the top left and beyond that there is no natural successor) and be left frustrated that such a conveyor belt underperforms due to the managers tactical naivety and the blind spots that have come with being manager for so long.

[Displaced Rover]

5 minutes ago, Gav said:

The Euro 96 squad was probably the best England squad we've ever produced.

 

The team that famously included Darren Anderton starting in midfield?

[Mattyblue]

Also Seaman, Adams, Neville, Pearce, Ince, Gascoigne, Shearer, Sheringham. 

Superb team with a very good manager who could’ve won a World Cup if he and the FA had got on.
 

[Displaced Rover]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Also Seaman, Adams, Neville, Pearce, Ince, Gascoigne, Shearer, Sheringham. 

Superb team with a very good manager who could’ve won a World Cup if he and the FA had got on.
 

Squad players including Stone, Howey, Walker, Phil Neville, Barmby, Redknapp.

First 11 was quality, squad had nowhere near the strength in depth in midfield/attack that we have now.

[Mattyblue]

I said it was a superb team, it was. 

[Displaced Rover]

and I was initially responding to the person who said it was the best squad we've ever had

Edited September 13, 2023 by Displaced Rover

[roverandout]

36 minutes ago, Gav said:

The Euro 96 squad was probably the best England squad we've ever produced, I'm surprised you think thats laughable, did you see them?

 

I agree they were good but technically that England squad wasn't great. This England squad has High technical players.  

[Gav]

46 minutes ago, Displaced Rover said:

Squad players including Stone, Howey, Walker, Phil Neville, Barmby, Redknapp.

First 11 was quality, squad had nowhere near the strength in depth in midfield/attack that we have now.

In attack we had Shearer, Sheringham, Gazza, Fowler and Ferdinand!

This squad was superb and the first 11 was probably our best ever first 11, we had quality backup in every position. 

1. David Seaman (Arsenal)
2. Gary Neville (Manchester United)
3. Stuart Pearce (Nottingham Forest)
4. Paul Ince (Inter Milan)
5. Tony Adams (Arsenal)
6. Gareth Southgate (Aston Villa)
7. David Platt (Arsenal)
8. Paul Gascoigne (Rangers)
9. Alan Shearer (Blackburn Rovers)
10. Teddy Sheringham (Tottenham Hotspur)
11. Darren Anderton (Tottenham Hotspur)
12. Steve Howey (Newcastle United)
13. Tim Flowers (Blackburn Rovers)
14. Nick Barmby (Middlesbrough)
15. Jamie Redknapp (Liverpool)
16. Sol Campbell (Tottenham Hotspur)
17. Steve McManaman (Liverpool)
18. Les Ferdinand (Newcastle United)
19. Phil Neville (Manchester United)
20. Steve Stone (Nottingham Forest)
21. Robbie Fowler (Liverpool)
22. Ian Walker (Tottenham Hotspur)

Edited September 13, 2023 by Gav

[riverholmes]

Ben White will be a big miss if he doesn't go to the Euros because of the fall-out or disagreement with England management.

International football has become homogenised in style, in that all or most teams play possession football. For England, this has been beneficial because there is no longer the gulf in styles when playing other sides. If a match wasn't played at high speed and with aggression, England were exposed. And, so often, England simply could not impose that direct game and were made to look like boys - even some of the star studded teams of the recent past.

It wasn't that Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham were technically far behind the best but they were not drilled from a young age at their clubs in 'tiki taka.' The current crop are and this makes Southgate's job easier. That said, I don't underestimate the team identity and morale he has built in the camp that was seemingly lacking in the past. I recall listening to an interview with Sean Davis of Fulham/Spurs talking about getting an England call-up, entering the team hotel having a look around and walking out, rather than mixing with the squad. 

 

[LeftWinger]

It's probably worth noting that the Euro 96 team only had one player that played outside of the UK - Paul Ince. The English league wasn't the strongest in Europe at that stage - having not produced a Champions League/European Cup winners since 1984. We probably overstate how good some of those individuals in the 1996 squad actually were.

3 of the last 5 Champions League finals have now been won by an English club which to me suggests the Premier League is the strongest league in the world these days. Add the fact that the likes of Kane, Bellingham, Tomori, Trippier etc. are prepared to move abroad and gain continental experience stands us in very good stead.

I think it was Graeme Souness last night who said England shouldn't even have to go defensive against the likes of France. We should play our own game and go at them. 

[Mattyblue]

It was a Gazza toe away from in all likelihood winning the tournament, of course it was a top side.

[Gav]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

It's probably worth noting that the Euro 96 team only had one player that played outside of the UK - Paul Ince. The English league wasn't the strongest in Europe at that stage - having not produced a Champions League/European Cup winners since 1984. We probably overstate how good some of those individuals in the 1996 squad actually were.

3 of the last 5 Champions League finals have now been won by an English club which to me suggests the Premier League is the strongest league in the world these days. Add the fact that the likes of Kane, Bellingham, Tomori, Trippier etc. are prepared to move abroad and gain continental experience stands us in very good stead.

Come on LeftWinger.....

Gazza went abroad, Platt too, Shearer could have many times, McManaman went to Real Madrid and was a massive hit, we hadn't won in Europe because we were banned after Heysel, first season back United won a trophy I believe and I'm not having that we 'Overstate how good those players were'.

That was the best England side I've seen and I've seen many.

[RoverDom]

Gareth has a cracking selection of players at his disposal but its debatable whether it's the best England squad. We've had comparable squads if you look player for player in each position. In my life time - 96 and 2002- 2006 we've had talented squads but not gone as far in tournaments. 

 

Look at Euro 2004 starting 11 - who from the current selection (whether Gareth selects them or not) gets into that starting line up. Kane, Bellingham, Rice would be a shout and possibly one of the right backs. 

Terry, Rio, Cole, lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, 2004 Rooney and a fit Owen would all be disappointed bit to be in the starting 11 if they were playing today

 

We've got a good squad and promising future but calling it the best squad is maybe looking at it through the lens of 2010-2018 being woeful. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by RoverDom

[speeeeeeedie]

4 hours ago, riverholmes said:

Ben White will be a big miss if he doesn't go to the Euros because of the fall-out or disagreement with England management.

 

He won't be. He's now a right back. England has loads of them, with Kyle Walker and Reece James being two of the world's best. 

 

[speeeeeeedie]

To the 90's/2000's v. now debate.

Today's squad is better than what we've had. Results have proven it. Yet we all know that every single one of the other teams lost by very small margins.

I think Hoddle would have done well if he'd had been able to carry on.

As mentioned, the Man U/Liverpool/Chelsea feuds within Sven and Capello's squads put any pay to success they could have had. Also, their era started with Zidane's France and ended with Spain's all conquering teams. There was a chance in 2006 but Owen's injury and ultimately Rooney's sending off were the deciding factors.

Keegan and McClaren weren't good enough, and Hodgson came in during a changing of the guard.

Here are the squads, most of them were very strong but I see a drop off after 2010. Euro 2012 looked particularly bleak. It was also enjoyable going through them to see names I'd forgotten who were in.

Euro 2000 

WC 2002 

Euro 2004

WC 2006

WC 2010

Euro 2012

WC 2014

Euro 2016

Pickford gets some stick too. He has been an excellent performer for England for over 5 years now. After looking through those squads I'd pick him ahead of any of the other keepers. Seaman wasn't great shakes. David James. Joe Hart. Paul Robinson. All dodgy.

[speeeeeeedie]

3 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Gareth has a cracking selection of players at his disposal but its debatable whether it's the best England squad. We've had comparable squads if you look player for player in each position. In my life time - 96 and 2002- 2006 we've had talented squads but not gone as far in tournaments. 

 

Look at Euro 2004 starting 11 - who from the current selection (whether Gareth selects them or not) gets into that starting line up. Kane, Bellingham, Rice would be a shout and possibly one of the right backs. 

Terry, Rio, Cole, lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, 2004 Rooney and a fit Owen would all be disappointed bit to be in the starting 11 if they were playing today

 

We've got a good squad and promising future but calling it the best squad is maybe looking at it through the lens of 2010-2018 being woeful. 

An interesting point. I would take 3 of the 2004 back 4 as Walker is better than Gary Neville. I'd have Pickford over James too. 

Ferdinand was either banned or injured for Euro 2004, not that it mattered as there was talent in abundance for that position back then.

After that the fun starts. What if the 2004 team played today's formation, or vice versa?

Could Beckham do the same job as a wide forward? Or would he compete with Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard for a midfield 3 spot?

Or a 4-4-2 with Kane and Rashford up top. Foden or Saka as true left midfielders. Bellingham and Rice in the middle. Grealish on the right?

[Oldgregg86]

19 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Tell you what though, Bellingham is some player. I remember people taking the piss out of Birmingham for retiring his shirt number. Brum not looking so silly now, eh?

(The last bit is tongue in cheek, btw).

I read they retired his shirt number not just because he was a good player but because the money they received from dortmund stopped them going into serious trouble. He did them a massive favour

[RoverDom]

25 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

After that the fun starts. What if the 2004 team played today's formation, or vice versa?

Formation is an interesting one as 442 was probably the wrong formation in 2004 - there was always the debate about whether lampard and Gerrard could play together. The answer was yes - if Carrick sat behind them. So arguably they could play better in this team. 

[jim mk2]

None of you lot have it right: the best England team in my lifetime has been the 1970 side, even better than the one wot won it in 1966

Banks, Sir Keith, Cooper, Mullery, Labone, Moore, Lee, Ball, Charlton, Hurst, Peters

Reserves included the likes of Stiles, Hunter, Bell, Clarke, Astle and Osgood.

Should have been in the 1970 final against the brilliant Brazil team of Pele and Gerson but for Banks's dodgy tummy and Ramsey's tactical errors in the quarter-final 

 

[roverandout]

6 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Gareth has a cracking selection of players at his disposal but its debatable whether it's the best England squad. We've had comparable squads if you look player for player in each position. In my life time - 96 and 2002- 2006 we've had talented squads but not gone as far in tournaments. 

 

Look at Euro 2004 starting 11 - who from the current selection (whether Gareth selects them or not) gets into that starting line up. Kane, Bellingham, Rice would be a shout and possibly one of the right backs. 

Terry, Rio, Cole, lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, 2004 Rooney and a fit Owen would all be disappointed bit to be in the starting 11 if they were playing today

 

We've got a good squad and promising future but calling it the best squad is maybe looking at it through the lens of 2010-2018 being woeful. 

We had a good first 11 during 04 to 06 but our bench options were aaran lennon, vassell, crouch, milner etc. This is definitely are far stronger squad 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

On 13/09/2023 at 17:11, jim mk2 said:

None of you lot have it right: the best England team in my lifetime has been the 1970 side, even better than the one wot won it in 1966

Banks, Sir Keith, Cooper, Mullery, Labone, Moore, Lee, Ball, Charlton, Hurst, Peters

Reserves included the likes of Stiles, Hunter, Bell, Clarke, Astle and Osgood.

Should have been in the 1970 final against the brilliant Brazil team of Pele and Gerson but for Banks's dodgy tummy and Ramsey's tactical errors in the quarter-final 

 

That is the best England time I’ve seen. As you say - better than the winners in 1966.

[speeeeeeedie]

International week is upon us. England have a friendly against Australia on Friday then a big qualifier against Italy next Tuesday. 

Southgate's picks here; BBC - England squad

No Sterling or Mount, but Southgate staples Maguire, Henderson, Phillips, and Stones are in. Stones, unlike the others, has been injured all season but he's another who Southgate trusts, and, who is a likely starter when fully fit.

Will Southgate go with the formation he went with against Scotland? Letting Bellingham cause havoc can only be good for England, and playing 2 holding midfielders gives Southgate the cover he likes.

I fully expect that Maguire will play as will at least one of Henderson and Phillips will be alongside Rice in midfield. Saka is out so who'll play wide?