England

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Phillips showed his lack of match time. He looked off the pace and was lucky not to be sent off. Southgate will play 2 holding midfielders. Who would you play instead of Phillips? I don't know who else can do it. Ward-Prowse? Gallagher? Alexander-Arnold?

There's no point in me commenting on Maguire. I've said my piece on him repeatedly.

Tripper is only playing there because Shaw and Chilwell are injured. He's another who Southgate trusts so will play more than others but wouldn't be there if either of the first two are fit. 

I admit that central midfield (discounting Bellingham who plays further forward) is not a strong position for us, Rice is good at what he does but is average on the ball and then there is a big question mark, but I dont think Phillips was ever much more than functional even when he was playing regularly. Pep has seen through him hence why he doesnt get a kick even with Rodri out. Any of the 3 you mention would at least give us something else, Alexander Arnold is the best of the 3 but obviously the questions are about playing a position he doesnt play for his club, but he does move into there and with Walker it is definitely worth a go. Ward Prowse and Gallagher are also better players.

Southgate has seemingly always had the attitude to let the front players get goals and just sit in otherwise and play as tight as possible. Our manager should look to be more proactive if he wants to really look to win a tournament. I would say the only 2 countries going into this tournament with squads as strong as ours are France and Portugal. I dont care about how we look but I think we have players that arent given the same freedom to flourish like they do at club level.

Trippier is a good player but he is hindered on the wrong side and struggled at times. Colwill has played at left back for Chelsea all season and has done well. Guehi, Dunk and Tomori should be all miles ahead of Maguire.

[Eddie]

I love being an England fan living abroad, because it gives such a better sense of perspective.

Even reading on here, it's amazing to see how supporters can pick holes in a comfortable win over a top-10 European side. Are Italy a tier 1 nation? No, but to handle them in the manner in which England did is the sign of a very good team.

We can be critical of certain players perhaps not deserving their spot or not squeezing every ounce of talent out of this squad, but the reality is that this is a top 2 side in Europe and probably a top 3/4 side in the world and it's been a long time since England could say that. 

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

I love being an England fan living abroad, because it gives such a better sense of perspective.

Even reading on here, it's amazing to see how supporters can pick holes in a comfortable win over a top-10 European side. Are Italy a tier 1 nation? No, but to handle them in the manner in which England did is the sign of a very good team.

We can be critical of certain players perhaps not deserving their spot or not squeezing every ounce of talent out of this squad, but the reality is that this is a top 2 side in Europe and probably a top 3/4 side in the world and it's been a long time since England could say that. 

Why would living abroad give any further perspective? Likewise with Rovers you seem keen to play the role of "having perspective."

Ultimately it was a good win. I think on paper our squad is as good as you say. I think people are worried that there is a chance that such a gifted group, you look at the likes of Kane and Bellingham, very few if any players in their positions in the world who are better, then players like Saka and Foden etc, and there is a worry that under Southgate an exciting generation will pass by without winning a major tournament.

His attitude seems to be to be particularly pragmatic and hope that our attacking talent can nick us a goal when we dont create that much. The question is, is that going to get the best of our squad. And you touched on some selections, can we carry players who have gone so long barely playing and not playing well when they do play.

[Exiled_Rover]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

I love being an England fan living abroad, because it gives such a better sense of perspective.

Even reading on here, it's amazing to see how supporters can pick holes in a comfortable win over a top-10 European side. Are Italy a tier 1 nation? No, but to handle them in the manner in which England did is the sign of a very good team.

We can be critical of certain players perhaps not deserving their spot or not squeezing every ounce of talent out of this squad, but the reality is that this is a top 2 side in Europe and probably a top 3/4 side in the world and it's been a long time since England could say that. 

This England side had no business losing the Euros final to Italy.

We'll never win anything with Southgate in charge.

[Dreams of 1995]

There's no point underestimating Italy. They are a better team than what people give them credit for. They were missing Tonali and Zaniolo yesterday.

Ultimately, we are just better than them now. It never used to be that way and certainly won't always be that way. As another poster said we are probably in the top 2 in Europe even with our central defence being well below the standard required for international football

I have tried to avoid the Maguire hate fest but if he goes to the tournament then Southgate really has put it all on the line. He was bad yesterday. The man looks devoid of all confidence - a far cry from the marauding 6 foot 25 lad that graced our 2018 World Cup. Then he brought the ball out from the back, using the outside of that right foot to take the ball with him. Now he stands still, dithers for too long before playing a pass that puts our midfielders in trouble. It is difficult to know whether this is coach driven or whether he has forgotten what made him good.

Partnering him is John Stones. Who on his day is a terrific player but has had a whopping 20 minutes of PL football this year. It just doesn't seem to be enough. Him arriving late for the Italy goal points to that.

Your men like Lewis Dunk and Guehi must see an opportunity here. Even worse is Tomori, who has been outstanding for top of the league AC Milan this year. Does Gary know Italy is still a good football league? Still no answer to why he was shipped off

We need to play our tournament squad as often as possible in the lead up to next summer. It is a huge opportunity. If this is the sign that we go into Euro 2024 with Maguire and Stones then I really do think it will be Southgate's last attempt. What a waste of a talent like Harry Kane, who probably only has another two tournaments left.

[Mattyblue]

Rovers (and now England) fans have always been a big disappointment to our Eddie.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Mattyblue

[wilsdenrover]

Harry Maguire re Henderson  ‘ Proper England fans don’t boo players’

Wilsdenrover re Henderson  ‘Proper advocates for LGBT rights don’t take the Saudi money’

Edited October 18, 2023 by wilsdenrover

[roverandout]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

There's no point underestimating Italy. They are a better team than what people give them credit for. They were missing Tonali and Zaniolo yesterday.

Ultimately, we are just better than them now. It never used to be that way and certainly won't always be that way. As another poster said we are probably in the top 2 in Europe even with our central defence being well below the standard required for international football

I have tried to avoid the Maguire hate fest but if he goes to the tournament then Southgate really has put it all on the line. He was bad yesterday. The man looks devoid of all confidence - a far cry from the marauding 6 foot 25 lad that graced our 2018 World Cup. Then he brought the ball out from the back, using the outside of that right foot to take the ball with him. Now he stands still, dithers for too long before playing a pass that puts our midfielders in trouble. It is difficult to know whether this is coach driven or whether he has forgotten what made him good.

Partnering him is John Stones. Who on his day is a terrific player but has had a whopping 20 minutes of PL football this year. It just doesn't seem to be enough. Him arriving late for the Italy goal points to that.

Your men like Lewis Dunk and Guehi must see an opportunity here. Even worse is Tomori, who has been outstanding for top of the league AC Milan this year. Does Gary know Italy is still a good football league? Still no answer to why he was shipped off

We need to play our tournament squad as often as possible in the lead up to next summer. It is a huge opportunity. If this is the sign that we go into Euro 2024 with Maguire and Stones then I really do think it will be Southgate's last attempt. What a waste of a talent like Harry Kane, who probably only has another two tournaments left.

I thought maguire was solid. He does dilly dally on the ball too much. We have some very talented young defenders coming through.  Ghuei, colwill.  I think Ghuei has the potential to be top class 

[Dreams of 1995]

10 minutes ago, roverandout said:

I thought maguire was solid. He does dilly dally on the ball too much. We have some very talented young defenders coming through.  Ghuei, colwill.  I think Ghuei has the potential to be top class 

Whenever it got to Maguire I felt the play slowed right now, to our detriment. Once or twice he played that straight pass to a midfielder and we lost the ball

I just think at this point in time there's better options available to us. It isn't fair on the man. One bad game and we could have a manhunt on our hands, such is the general feeling around him at the moment. As you say, we have some talented defenders in this country, so why do we persist with two that can't get in to their club squads?

At least with Stones you know he'll get minutes. And the reason he isn't is because there's genuine world class in front of him. Maguire on the other hand, it is unusual. How often in the past 20+ years have England persisted with a player that has had the run on the bench as Maguire has? Before his last game at Brentford he had played 20 minutes of football all year. That followed the end of last year were he was regularly benched

He ain't better than Lewis Dunk let's put it that way

If you compare us to the centre halves we have become accustomed to - Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell - then we are really letting ourselves down at the moment.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[wilsdenrover]

Shouldn’t success (for the top international sides) be measured in trophies won?

[Eddie]

Just now, wilsdenrover said:

Shouldn’t success (for the top international sides) be measured in trophies won?

For me? No. There are too few opportunities to win trophies to define success exclusively based on how many times you win the Euros or the World Cup.

That being said, this generation of players should win one of the next two, if they do so it will represent a very successful period. If they have an 8-year period with 1 trophy, 1 final, and 1 semifinal it will have been a generation that delivered on its promise.

[wilsdenrover]

4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

For me? No. There are too few opportunities to win trophies to define success exclusively based on how many times you win the Euros or the World Cup.

That being said, this generation of players should win one of the next two, if they do so it will represent a very successful period. If they have an 8-year period with 1 trophy, 1 final, and 1 semifinal it will have been a generation that delivered on its promise.

Thank you for your reply.

As things stand, I’d describe Southgate’s tenure as very good but also frustrating.

If he was to win a trophy, and his record became that of your final sentence, I would agree that he’d been successful.

 

 

[Dreams of 1995]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You seem to have reverted back to the self righteous attitude that you sometimes display regarding Rovers whereby your main argument is "stop being negative."

"Overly subjective opinions," arent all opinions equally subjective? England have some of the best players in the world and thus there should be an expectation to challenge to win majour tournaments, hence why people are demanding so much and there are valid concerns that potentially overly pragmatic tactics and the repeated selection of players who have barely played at all and when they have not well for a number of years could scupper our chances.

Bloody hell you have taken offence to that one where there isn’t any

What Eddie has said is right. You get a whole new perspective of something when you aren’t wrapped up in it. That isn’t a controversial thing to say and definitely not “self-righteous”

From my personal experience there is a negative view of England going into next year. Elsewhere it is different. Some Dutch lads I know have us pipped as favourites. It is a whole different perspective 

[jim mk2]

58 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Shouldn’t success (for the top international sides) be measured in trophies won?

Of course. There's no other measure, and by that measure England is a failing football nation

Look at our record against France, Germany, Italy, Spain. It's pathetic. Even when we at last got to a final, after more than 55 long years, in our own national stadium, we managed to blow it 

And that was against an Italy side that 6 months later that failed to qualify for the World Cup

The perception of England from abroad is irrelevant until we start winning trophies

[roversfan99]

14 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Bloody hell you have taken offence to that one where there isn’t any

What Eddie has said is right. You get a whole new perspective of something when you aren’t wrapped up in it. That isn’t a controversial thing to say and definitely not “self-righteous”

From my personal experience there is a negative view of England going into next year. Elsewhere it is different. Some Dutch lads I know have us pipped as favourites. It is a whole different perspective 

I am not a fan of repeatedly calling people negative or positive because its just a method of shutting down debate by making people seem unreasonable. Eddie has done the same previously about Rovers.

People are capable of making their own opinions rather than it just echoing the media or mainstream opinion. I think there would be a more valid argument if people were saying the players we have are not very good etc but that is far from the case. We have what feels like a particulely high standard of players at the moment, hence the worry that these peak years will again pass by without something to show for it.

We have always been quite a pragmatic team under Southgate but going back to say 2018 and to a much lesser extent 2021, our side lacked tbe quality it has now so it was more understandable. The question is whether Southgate can evolve with that and it doesnt really seem so. He also remains "loyal" to certain players despite prolonged periods of inactivity and/or poor performances, so we are left with a team mainly of really high standard players and then 2 or 3 blatant weaknesses.

If we run with the idea that people are so impressionable based on the narrative around them. Say these Dutch or French fans, they wont watch all of our games to the same extent and will just see the names, Bellingham, Kane, Saka, Foden etc, we all agree that they are excellent players which is why we all seem to agree that England should be amongst the favourites. They also might have similar attitudes surely to their own teams as what you perceive England fans based in England do to their team, ie supposedly be more willing to pin point certain flaws within the team? So this idea of different attitudes based on where you are works both ways.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

We’ll never reach our potential playing two water carriers, one of them being a pretty poor water carrier. Who picks the team ? 

[AllRoverAsia]

53 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Of course. There's no other measure, and by that measure England is a failing football nation

Look at our record against France, Germany, Italy, Spain. It's pathetic. Even when we at last got to a final, after more than 55 long years, in our own national stadium, we managed to blow it 

And that was against an Italy side that 6 months later that failed to qualify for the World Cup

The perception of England from abroad is irrelevant until we start winning trophies

My perception agrees with your views and I've been abroad for decades ... How bloody odd ... 

[joey_big_nose]

Playing Phillips and Maguire in a key game like this though after they have hardly featured for their clubs and have struggled when they have, and are not match fit, does just seem very very strange. We do have decent if unspectacular alternatives on the bench, young players who need to kick on and have a future with England. Why stick with players who are obviously on their way out?

Very odd situation. But hats off to Southgate - he got the job done as he usually does. In terms of results he's got us closer than anyone since 1966, and continues to look as likely as anyone to get us over the line.

I wouldn't be particularly confident if we changed manager we would get someone more likely to get positive results. Been through that cycle with Capello, Eriksson etc. If there is an outstanding candidate then yes, but I can't see one. Most likely name to rock up would be Eddie Howe, and while a good manager I don't think I would be putting any bets on to say he will improve on Southgate's record.

Edited October 19, 2023 by joey_big_nose

[K-Hod]

I think it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to question, when the likes of Maguire and Phillips are being picked for England, when they aren’t for their clubs. It’s not like they’re the only show in town, either. Plenty of other players are playing more regularly and better than the above.

It’s absolutely closer to favouritism than a meritocracy.

My worry with Southgate has always been that he is too cautious. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

When we up the tempo in the game and occasionally go more direct we look great. Maybe the tip tap in our own half is our secret weapon, send our opponents to sleep. It certainly works for me.

[roverandout]

We have depth in most positions.  Centreback isn't as bad as people make out. Tomori ghuei colwill dunk maguire and stones who is a world class defender. Even left back we have two players playing regularly for champions league clubs. Midfield isn't too bad. I like Gallagher, he's been one of Chelsea's best players this season.  Rice is top class. Then the superstar Bellingham.  Also the likes of Anderson and longstaff is potential.  The wide players and attacking players speak for themselves 

[roversfan99]

Im not sure Rice is quite top class although hes definitely the only definite in there. None of the group of centre backs to partner Stones (who himself seems to be turning into more of a holding midfielder, if we had good centre backs maybe Rice and Stones could work) are without their drawbacks or at a level youd feel totally confident against the best but there is more than enough to still make Maguire's definite place in the team never mind the squad as a joke. And left back isnt a great area for us either, sods law that all of our full backs are right back.

But some of our attacking talent is really world class and there is quality in parts behind that. Definitely enough to not feel the need to be quite so pragmatic and to repeatedly select players who dont play for their clubs.

[RoverDom]

When you think our front 4 could includ - Kane, Bellingham, foden, Rushford, grealish, maddison, youve got to think most teams should fear us. 

Full backs we're well stocked in and then there's Rice and Stones in the middle. It's a fantastic squad.

[LeftWinger]

5 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

When you think our front 4 could includ - Kane, Bellingham, foden, Rushford, grealish, maddison, youve got to think most teams should fear us. 

Full backs we're well stocked in and then there's Rice and Stones in the middle. It's a fantastic squad.

Well stocked at right-back, but he insists on playing a right back at left-back when Shaw is out. I like Trippier, but would much prefer a left footer playing there.

Considering our strength is definitely going forward - we should play more on the front foot - something Gareth doesn't seem keen on. I'm assuming Phillips will go somewhere in January and get some regular football. No way him or Maguire should be starting if they can't get in their club sides. 

[speeeeeeedie]

I liked this article on Kalvin Phillips' state of play; ESPN: Phillips needs to play. It sounds like he wants to move. 

Unlike with Maguire Southgate has no alternatives to Phillips. He won't play Stones there. 

I also think that the 4-2-3-1 formation Southgate is now deploying makes England more attacking. The extra cover gives the front 4 more license to go, and it frees up Bellingham. 

It's roughly 9 months before the tournament starts. I'd say that Southgate already has the vast majority of his squad written down.

The Qatar 2002 squad;

Goalkeepers: Jordan Pickford, Nick Pope, Aaron Ramsdale

- It's 2 of three from Nick Pope, Aaron Ramsdale, Sam Johnstone to join Pickford. 

Defenders: Ben White, Kyle Walker, Kieran Trippier, Trent Alexander-Arnold, John Stones, Eric Dier, Harry Maguire, Conor Coady, Luke Shaw.

- replaced by Guehi, Colwill, Tomori. Chilwell and James were both injured last year. Will they both be back? There should be a spot open as Southgate lists Trent Alexander-Arnold as a midfielder. 

Midfielders: Declan Rice, Jordan Henderson, Jude Bellingham, Mason Mount, Connor Gallagher, Kalvin Phillips.

- he hasn't played since France last year and is struggling in a dodgy Man U team.

Forwards: Harry Kane, Raheem Sterling, Bukayo Saka, Phil Foden, Marcus Rashford, Callum Wilson, Jack Grealish, James Maddison

- Sterling has been a Southgate favourite but has had a spotty year. If Pochettino gets him going he may be back. I think Wilson is done. Watkins? Calvert-Lewin?