v Derby (a) - 30/10/2021

[booth]

Just now, Wood26 said:

I watched both halves I was there. You are right, we did sit back and was poor in second half but I think it was a reaction to Derby actually waking up. 
 

So yes we can criticise Mowbray for the 2nd half, but then we need to praise him for the first half, which ultimately won us the game.

Only just! We had luck on our side today, and the post. It's great that we managed to batter Derby in the first half but a pointless effort if Mowbray influences the team negatively to such a degree that we are in danger of losing either the lead or the game. If it was a one off I could let it go but it seems like a worrying tactic he's holding on to despite it's obvious failings, much like his possession nonsense.

[rigger]

I wish it would be possible to record a Mowbray half-time team talk, and let the fans hear what he says.

[Wood26]

Where do we think Dack fits into this side?

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Wood26 said:

Where do we think Dack fits into this side?

We don't know if Dack will ever play at this level again. So at the moment he doesn't fit anywhere in our side. 

[booth]

I'm more anxious for Wharton to return. He looked like a defensive rock before his injury.

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, booth said:

I assume you didn't watch beyond the first half.

I'm talking about the second half. For most of it we had 9 players defending and only Brereton as an outlet.

Yes Derby reacted. They reacted to us staying in our own half (box) for almost the majority of the second half, with no way of clearing the ball any further than the half way line because we only had one player there. And on some occasions even Brereton was back.

We were playing the bottom of the league, were playing well and Mowbray directed the team to park the bus for the entire second half. Unfathomable.

A team 2 up away from home will naturally fall deeper and deeper though. The 2 subs that were made today were the 2 most attacking subs possible aswell.

I dont doubt that our inability to hold on to leads this season have been a major worry, I think a lot of it comes down to inexperience and we struggle to hold the ball up. Until the 85th minute, I didnt think they looked like scoring but the goal really rocked us. We do need to find a way to manage games better but we got over the line today. I do think that we seem to have gone from one extreme to another regarding possession and we should try to keep the ball more when we are leading.

[riverholmes]

From the highlights, it looks like Gallagher was the central forward, with Brereton left and Dolan right. If this was the case, perhaps, sanity is prevailing and Mowbray is abandoning his false 9 tactic? 

Credit to Mowbray, as his Buckley RB move worked out (albeit, against a struggling side), as did bringing Johnson in. I definitely agree with those who say that Travis - and the full backs, needs support defensively in the middle. It's noticeable that as Buckley is surging forward with the ball for the second goal (he played a key role in both goals) I believe Johnson is providing defensive cover in the middle.

For Derby's goal, I'm surprised that the defence held such a deep line to allow Derby players to crowd Kaminski. Not being a too knowledgeable about defending, I defer to others, but, I would have thought that you hold a higher line from the free kick.

A negative, for me, is the loan trio on the bench. They're not showing much and they're preventing some of Rovers youngsters from developing and staking a claim, such as Butterworth, who has shown glimpses, albeit, was then poor in the recent game.

Edited October 30, 2021 by riverholmes

[roversfan99]

I do feel that there is a lack of balance to peoples judgement of the manager at the moment. Minimal/no praise of a first half where we were excellent and a focus on a second half in which we looked fine for most of bar a 10 minute spell at the end in which we were rocked by conceding. The narrative seems to be almost as if the players played the first half of their own accord and Mowbray purposely reigned them in at half time. 

[Wood26]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I do feel that there is a lack of balance to peoples judgement of the manager at the moment. Minimal/no praise of a first half where we were excellent and a focus on a second half in which we looked fine for most of bar a 10 minute spell at the end in which we were rocked by conceding. The narrative seems to be almost as if the players played the first half of their own accord and Mowbray purposely reigned them in at half time. 

Exactly that. If we didn’t miss sitters we are 5-0 up at half time against a team that hasn’t lost at home.

The only game this season where I felt we had no hope of getting anything was WBA, and even that finished 2-1.

But the people you mention are the minority. They hate Mowbray and want him gone, and can’t see it any other way.

[tomphil]

I think we all need to get off the Mowbray train for a bit.  His methods after 5 years are well worn and obvious to everybody who looks at the bigger picture.  Some just want to beat him all the time and others treat him like some football demi god.

I'll admit he boils my pee but i'll also credit him where i feel he deserves it. Every defeat isn't down to him despite popular culture but neither are a lot of wins. It's just football and he just does what he does.

We all know he isn't taking us anywhere money or no money but this season he might do his bit in a punching above our weight finish. Or he could be part of the problem if we, as expected, fall away with a one win in ten scenario.

He's bang average lets just accept that and also accept we will need a change at some point.  

[riverholmes]

Agree, and, meanwhile, the club is behaving as if it will continue to be able to afford a high transfer budget, despite losing key players on free transfers and allowing youth players to stagnate, to the point that they're so desperate for opportunities that they're heading on loan for a month in non-league. I don't think Venky's will continue to provide funds long-term, as they have done and then we'll be in a major crisis. Young players like Dolan, Buckley, Travis, Edun and, perhaps, JRC and Wharton, will be carrying the team soon.

So, that's the unhappy but frank context of this positive result. I must say, at least some of these young players are showing some form, which provides hope for staying in the league in the medium term. And, if we play Gallagher central, we might even finish higher than 15th this year.

Edited October 30, 2021 by riverholmes

[Aqualung]

Liking the the look of Van ( flipping) Hecke... The young guys a confident player. Did well today. Sign him up. 

[tomphil]

I think when you sign so many young players on loan it's always going to turn out to be a mixed bag. Odd thing is the ones we might expect something from turn out to be the weakest. Plus side though one or two look comfortable enough so far.

The manager needs to be bold from here on in by leaving the weakest on the bench and not trying to just give them games. Their clubs might moan but just tell them to hand their keys back in and say thanks but no thanks.

Be ruthless and see progress.

Edited October 30, 2021 by tomphil

[booth]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I do feel that there is a lack of balance to peoples judgement of the manager at the moment. Minimal/no praise of a first half where we were excellent and a focus on a second half in which we looked fine for most of bar a 10 minute spell at the end in which we were rocked by conceding. The narrative seems to be almost as if the players played the first half of their own accord and Mowbray purposely reigned them in at half time. 

I don't believe we looked fine at all in the second half. We were clearly inviting them to pressure us with the gameplan of just soaking it up. A defence lacking two key players. There was no way that all 10 of our outfield players went... "Let's stop attacking." It was clearly motivated by the manager and had that shot that hit the post been one inch to the other side, we'd have all been lamenting another 2 points lost. A better team would have took us to the cleaners.

He's not going to abandon this, he's got previous. So we either get better at defending and soaking up pressure or we'll continue to drop points.

[47er]

50 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

A team 2 up away from home will naturally fall deeper and deeper though. The 2 subs that were made today were the 2 most attacking subs possible aswell.

I dont doubt that our inability to hold on to leads this season have been a major worry, I think a lot of it comes down to inexperience and we struggle to hold the ball up. Until the 85th minute, I didnt think they looked like scoring but the goal really rocked us. We do need to find a way to manage games better but we got over the line today. I do think that we seem to have gone from one extreme to another regarding possession and we should try to keep the ball more when we are leading.

If its working we should keep on doing it.

[Wood26]

2 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I think when you sign so many young players on loan it's always going to turn out to be a mixed bag. Odd thing is the ones we might expect something from turn out to be the weakest. Plus side though one or two look comfortable enough so far.

The manager needs to be bold from here on in by leaving the weakest on the bench and not trying to just give them games. Their clubs might moan but just tell them to hand their keys back in and say thanks but no thanks.

Be ruthless and see progress.

To be fair to Mowbray he does leave the loans on the bench. Without the loanees our squad is way to thin, so they are vital. We are unlucky this year that they ain’t up to much.

Would I prefer Butterworth coming on over Poveda, of course, but we are in a difficult situation where if we don’t play them we won’t get loans of their clubs again. It’s a difficult situation, and when a “Rovers player” like Butterworth gets a chance like at QPR, he needs to make a name for himself.

[booth]

42 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I do feel that there is a lack of balance to peoples judgement of the manager at the moment. Minimal/no praise of a first half where we were excellent and a focus on a second half in which we looked fine for most of bar a 10 minute spell at the end in which we were rocked by conceding. The narrative seems to be almost as if the players played the first half of their own accord and Mowbray purposely reigned them in at half time. 

I'd say it's pointless if he delivers in the first half only to change the team completely in the second half putting the team under the kosh. If a player scores two goals but then follows that up with three own goals would they get roundly praised for those two goals or roundly panned? I think a lot of fans have seen too many own goals from Mowbray to have much faith going forward.

My bias is that I've been watching Mowbray's Rovers for years now and for me any success he has seem to be tainted by the feeling that it's more luck than judgement and we're only one step away from a cock up.

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, booth said:

I don't believe we looked fine at all in the second half. We were clearly inviting them to pressure us with the gameplan of just soaking it up. A defence lacking two key players. There was no way that all 10 of our outfield players went... "Let's stop attacking." It was clearly motivated by the manager and had that shot that hit the post been one inch to the other side, we'd have all been lamenting another 2 points lost. A better team would have took us to the cleaners.

He's not going to abandon this, he's got previous. So we either get better at defending and soaking up pressure or we'll continue to drop points.

No praise for the way we played in the first half? And how many decent chances were created prior to their goal by them?

I very much doubt that Mowbray said "to stop attacking." Mowbray regularly talks about how we need to be better especially on the counter attack when leading and was saying how we wasnt good at that in the second half today. Teams winning on a lead will naturally be pushed back.

A better team would have taken us to the cleaners, if my aunty had bollocks etc. When we have thrown away leads as we have this season, I have been the first to criticise, moan and get angry but today was not such an occasion.

2 minutes ago, booth said:

I'd say it's pointless if he delivers in the first half only to change the team completely in the second half putting the team under the kosh. If a player scores two goals but then follows that up with three own goals would they get roundly praised for those two goals or roundly panned? I think a lot of fans have seen too many own goals from Mowbray to have much faith going forward.

My bias is that I've been watching Mowbray's Rovers for years now and for me any success he has seem to be tainted by the feeling that it's more luck than judgement and we're only one step away from a cock up.

Your analogy is inaccurate, today it would be 2 goals and 1 own goal in which case an individual player would still be praised.

[Aqualung]

11 minutes ago, booth said:

I don't believe we looked fine at all in the second half. We were clearly inviting them to pressure us with the gameplan of just soaking it up. A defence lacking two key players. There was no way that all 10 of our outfield players went... "Let's stop attacking." It was clearly motivated by the manager and had that shot that hit the post been one inch to the other side, we'd have all been lamenting another 2 points lost. A better team would have took us to the cleaners.

He's not going to abandon this, he's got previous. So we either get better at defending and soaking up pressure or we'll continue to drop points.

I'd agree about better teams 3 of which are WBA, Fulham and of course Bournemouth who will walk this league. 

Rovers are amongst the other teams who could easily get into the play off positions provided Mowbray doesn't balls it up plus injuries 

[Wood26]

58 minutes ago, booth said:

I don't believe we looked fine at all in the second half. We were clearly inviting them to pressure us with the gameplan of just soaking it up. A defence lacking two key players. There was no way that all 10 of our outfield players went... "Let's stop attacking." It was clearly motivated by the manager and had that shot that hit the post been one inch to the other side, we'd have all been lamenting another 2 points lost. A better team would have took us to the cleaners.

He's not going to abandon this, he's got previous. So we either get better at defending and soaking up pressure or we'll continue to drop points.

We was 2-0 up at half time and should of been far more. Second half from what i recall, nothing happened until about the 80th minute when they had a free kick Kaminski saved. I don’t remember a chance before that?

Then they went gung-ho last 10, scored in 89th, and almost got an equaliser after that in stoppage time.

That’s just football. When Liverpool was 4-0 up at half time against United but only scored 1 in second half I don’t think that is because Klopp said “stop attacking”.

[garnersfags]

7 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Good win, and possibly as good a demonstration as you could get as to the current state of Rovers.

First half, brilliant. Should have been 4 or 5 up. Brereton with 2 goals, should have done better with another good chance and very typically unorthodox and clumsy but effective at the same time. Dolan fairly quiet today, as was Rothwell really. Gallagher is generally a really poor player, he is (aside from height at set pieces) useless when we are winning because he loses the ball basically every time, horrendous touch, can't hold the ball up, and it just keeps coming back. Yet he isn't a total write off, when we are on top early in games, he is a real nuisance, full of running power, he isn't a good finisher but he will chip in, such a strange player.

I thought the change to bring Johnson in by the manager was a wise one and he did give us some stability and allowed Travis off the leash somewhat, I am not convinced that Travis suits being the deepest midfielder because he can be a bit ill disciplined and chaotic. Edun I like, I feel like the 2 signings in the summer have turned left back from a position of worry where we had Bell who could barely control a ball and Douglas who was forever out of position to 2 good technical and trustworthy options. The 2 centre backs put their body on the line although both were guilty of being drawn out once too often, Ayala is a miss. Buckley is blatantly not a right back, tried his best and good assist but an obvious weak point throughout, and Kaminski made a couple of comfortable saves, helpless for the goal and poor again with his kicking.

The game management needs to improve, total chaos in the end, and a lack of experience and also of depth in the squad makes it really difficult. Poveda and Khadra were signed purely because they are cheap and you can see that, both are so inexperienced, Khadra cost us the free kick for the first goal with a stupid foul, it was a hectic game to come in to and I am not sure that any of the other subs would have helped either.

Fair play to Mowbray too, this squad is not the 7th best so he is getting a decent tune out of it, but that outlook could look different at the end of the week. Lives and dies by his results, we won today so that is the most important thing.

Brilliant, considered assessment. I agree with every word. Cheers. 

[garnersfags]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I do feel that there is a lack of balance to peoples judgement of the manager at the moment. Minimal/no praise of a first half where we were excellent and a focus on a second half in which we looked fine for most of bar a 10 minute spell at the end in which we were rocked by conceding. The narrative seems to be almost as if the players played the first half of their own accord and Mowbray purposely reigned them in at half time. 

I think that's exactly the point most of us make. He does reign us in when we are 2 nil up. It has happened every time we have had a 2 goal lead (except Cardiff), so many of us think it is because he tells the players to now 'stay solid, and don't concede' or that is his default position, and we are just not tactically or technically good enough to do this. 

So all we can do to ensure we win from 2 nil up, is to push on and score a 3rd. 

I agree it's not as simple as some on here make out, but it IS a result of Tony's defensive outlook, and causes us to lose numerous points over a season, especially when we approach 6th place.

Fulham will be a very good contest. 

COYB

Edited October 31, 2021 by garnersfags

[joey_big_nose]

12 minutes ago, garnersfags said:

I think that's exactly the point most of us make. He does reign us in when we are 2 nil up. It has happened every time we have had a 2 goal lead (except Cardiff), so many of us think it is because he tells the players to now 'stay solid, and don't concede' or that is his default position, and we are just not tactically or technically good enough to do this. 

So all we can do to ensure we win from 2 nil up, is to push on and score a 3rd. 

I agree it's not as simple as some on here make out, but it IS a result of Tony's defensive outlook, and causes us to lose numerous points over a season, especially when we approach 6th place.

Fulham will be a very good contest. 

COYB

To be honest has there ever been a manager at Rovers (or any club, or international football) that doesn't get the "why do you sit back on a lead" criticism.

I'd wager when Mowbray gets eventually potted we'll all be on here saying the same about the next guy. Id bet my house on it.

I think to be honest it's the nature of football. One team gets a lead the other side starts taking risks and either they get battered or they manage to turn the game.

It's just the way it is to a certain extent. I'm not really sure Mowbray is much worse than any other manager on that front.

[garnersfags]

26 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

To be honest has there ever been a manager at Rovers (or any club, or international football) that doesn't get the "why do you sit back on a lead" criticism.

I'd wager when Mowbray gets eventually potted we'll all be on here saying the same about the next guy. Id bet my house on it.

I think to be honest it's the nature of football. One team gets a lead the other side starts taking risks and either they get battered or they manage to turn the game.

It's just the way it is to a certain extent. I'm not really sure Mowbray is much worse than any other manager on that front.

I can and do accept that, but TM doesn't appear to have become any better at managing that situation in 20 years, and I suppose a lot on here see other managers at this level that are statistically better at not giving up a 2 goal lead.

I agree, though, that Stoke fans will be waking up this morning saying exactly the same about Michael O'Neil. 

I'm happy to see some reasoned comment/discussion on this, though. Long may it continue....

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, booth said:

Only just! We had luck on our side today, and the post. It's great that we managed to batter Derby in the first half but a pointless effort if Mowbray influences the team negatively to such a degree that we are in danger of losing either the lead or the game. If it was a one off I could let it go but it seems like a worrying tactic he's holding on to despite it's obvious failings, much like his possession nonsense.

And his 5 at the back nonsense.