v Birmingham (h) - 18/12/21

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

16 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Do you just have a ridiculously good memory or do you have a book or something with all the old games in?

Both. Just don’t ask me what I had for my tea last night !

[47er]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I think we were discussing players who had scored 20 goals for Rovers by Jan Ist in any season.

Andy McEvoy had scored 23 league goals by that point in the season 1963-64.

That was a half season to remember! I was scarred forever from that and thinking about what could have been for years after.

That's why I've posted so often about the current contract issues, I'm terrified it will happen again.

At Christmas again!

[47er]

The story I heard about Christmas 1963 is that the directors had promised the team a pay rise should they be top at Christmas. After thrashing West Ham away 8-2 the directors reneged on their promise.

The return game was so odd. 29000 on and full of expectation. You could tell from the off that something was going wrong as the players weren't themselves at all. They were going through the motions. A hush came over the crowd, briefly lifted when McEvoy scored his goal.

We were never the same again. Pickering left for a record fee and we lost match after match to finish 6th.

2 seasons later we were relegated. The best side we ever had in my lifetime and all thrown away.

Please don't make the same mistake Venkys, although I'm sure you know none of this piece of Rovers history.

Edited December 19, 2021 by 47er

[Mattyblue]

Comparing this set up to what Jack and JW presided over 🤦‍♂️

Under Jack Walker we’d never have been in a scenario where trying to keep hold of the likes of Darragh Lenihan would be an almighty challenge!

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Comparing this set up to what Jack and JW presided over 🤦‍♂️

Under Jack Walker we’d never have been in a scenario where trying to keep hold of the likes of Darragh Lenihan would be an almighty challenge!

Under Jack there was no rules about losing money.

Under JW there was never a period or seasons where fans couldn’t attend.

That said, I’m not giving excuses to these owners, I am aware as you are, of their (potentially criminal) incompetence and the neglect they’ve shown their “baby” (other than signing cheques)..!

The point remains however. Extremely difficult time in football, and looking at the papers today - potentially more to come.

 

[Mattyblue]

So JW/JW couldn’t have handled this situation any better than SW?

Come off it.

[JBiz]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

So JW/JW couldn’t have handled this situation any better than SW?

Come off it.

I don’t think it’s that black and white.

For example - Jack and John would’ve had our turnover in a far far better place, on the face of it…. But then if we’re languishing 15th in the championship - you could have anyone as CEO, you’re not selling tickets.

That said - men of their quality would’ve never allowed us to be in that scenario, so the comparison just ends in folly.

I still think it’s important to understand the different contexts though. With loss making rules, JW would’ve never even been allowed to spend what he did - why do you think clubs voted these rules in to begin with? Wasn’t about stopping clubs going bust, was about holding back teams without as many fans.

That said, I bet Jack would’ve found a way round the rules.

[Mattyblue]

Your third paragraph was my exact point, so a silly comparison to start with from a poster that has swallowed the kool-aid big time…

[K-Hod]

5 minutes ago, JBiz said:

I don’t think it’s that black and white.

For example - Jack and John would’ve had our turnover in a far far better place, on the face of it…. But then if we’re languishing 15th in the championship - you could have anyone as CEO, you’re not selling tickets.

That said - men of their quality would’ve never allowed us to be in that scenario, so the comparison just ends in folly.

I still think it’s important to understand the different contexts though. With loss making rules, JW would’ve never even been allowed to spend what he did - why do you think clubs voted these rules in to begin with? Wasn’t about stopping clubs going bust, was about holding back teams without as many fans.

That said, I bet Jack would’ve found a way round the rules.

That’s a very long winded way of saying ‘I agree with you’ to Matty 😃.

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

That’s a very long winded way of saying ‘I agree with you’ to Matty 😃.

It’s not that simple though is it

for example - SW inherited an absolute clusterfuck.

In some ways (as we’ve discussed) I don’t think he’s done that bad.

Edited December 20, 2021 by JBiz

[dingles staying down 4ever]

17 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

So JW/JW couldn’t have handled this situation any better than SW?

Come off it.

They probably would off but lets not forget the terms of engagement have changed. The cheapest players now are probably on the wages that JW/JW faced.

I agree that Williams probably have increased the income sources that we need but I still maintain that the agents hold the power. Having too many players whose contracts are ending at once was always going to bring the club facing down a barallel. Do the three players have the same agent btw? 

[JBiz]

22 minutes ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

They probably would off but lets not forget the terms of engagement have changed. The cheapest players now are probably on the wages that JW/JW faced.

I agree that Williams probably have increased the income sources that we need but I still maintain that the agents hold the power. Having too many players whose contracts are ending at once was always going to bring the club facing down a barallel. Do the three players have the same agent btw? 

It would be interesting to find out who their agent is. I heard that Dunn has an agency which represents quite a few of our players.

As for the CEO, how would JW have done long term with absent owners based 5000 miles away?

He left as soon as he spotted potential issues and “conflicts of interest” at the club, and who could blame him. Perhaps he knew even he wouldn’t be able to succeed in that scenario.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JBiz

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

The story I heard about Christmas 1963 is that the directors had promised the team a pay rise should they be top at Christmas. After thrashing West Ham away 8-2 the directors reneged on their promise.

The return game was so odd. 29000 on and full of expectation. You could tell from the off that something was going wrong as the players weren't themselves at all. They were going through the motions. A hush came over the crowd, briefly lifted when McEvoy scored his goal.

We were never the same again. Pickering left for a record fee and we lost match after match to finish 6th.

2 seasons later we were relegated. The best side we ever had in my lifetime and all thrown away.

Please don't make the same mistake Venkys, although I'm sure you know none of this piece of Rovers history.

I went to the return game with a pal and his much older brother. He paid for us to go in the main stand. That’s the only time I sat in the stands in the old ground. Maybe I jinxed us. We played like we’d been celebrating since Boxing Day. We were never in the game.

[RoverDom]

Tell you what is refreshing, I'm looking forward to the next rovers game for the first time in ages. For a few seasons I just can't be bothered with the next game "christ we're playing again" had to force myself to be interested. Now I'm looking forward to the next game, disappointed there's been no midweek games for a couple of weeks. 

I've not said this for years, I CANT WAIT FOR OUR NEXT GAME

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

12 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Tell you what is refreshing, I'm looking forward to the next rovers game for the first time in ages. For a few seasons I just can't be bothered with the next game "christ we're playing again" had to force myself to be interested. Now I'm looking forward to the next game, disappointed there's been no midweek games for a couple of weeks. 

I've not said this for years, I CANT WAIT FOR OUR NEXT GAME

Yes, until recently I looked forward to the International breaks. I knew my weekend wouldn’t be ruined then.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, JBiz said:

It’s not that simple though is it

for example - SW inherited an absolute clusterfuck.

In some ways (as we’ve discussed) I don’t think he’s done that bad.

Not sure that is strictly true as if i remember right although we'd been relegated he got a good starting point to go again. There was the audits, some debt written off, more share issues, pay decreases already written into some contracts kicking in. the granting of an almost championship level budget again AND a couple of million to spend.

Not exactly a clusterfuck probably actually a good time to take the reigns and he and Mowbray did well initially. Then after promotion they/he doffed out all the contract extensions that meant we were bound to keep a lot of players and their now championship wages until they themselves decided to move on.

Off the park since then there's been no real obvious signs of progress and you could say a bit of a clusterfuck with the contracts which lies at his door. Covid not withstanding but every club has had to deal with that and not everyone has owners with pockets like ours.

C minus is as good as it gets for Steve i'm afraid.

Edited December 20, 2021 by tomphil

[JBiz]

17 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Not sure that is strictly true as if i remember right although we'd been relegated he got a good starting point to go again. There was the audits, some debt written off, more share issues, pay decreases already written into some contracts kicking in. the granting of an almost championship level budget again AND a couple of million to spend.

Not exactly a clusterfuck probably actually a good time to take the reigns and he and Mowbray did well initially. Then after promotion they/he doffed out all the contract extensions that meant we were bound to keep a lot of players and their now championship wages until they themselves decided to move on.

Off the park since then there's been no real obvious signs of progress and you could say a bit of a clusterfuck with the contracts which lies at his door. Covid not withstanding but every club has had to deal with that and not everyone has owners with pockets like ours.

C minus is as good as it gets for Steve i'm afraid.

I’m only at C, but that was like a* compared to previous incumbents post Williams et al.

I agree a lot - but have you ever watched “Sunderland till I die?” A good example of how budgets in league one really are useful but the pressure that comes with it takes expertise to handle.

Equally the rebuilding process is probably a lot more difficult than we give him credit for. Think it was GE on the pod that said something like “decisions made in 2010 are still holding us back…”! 

[BigBar]

On 19/12/2021 at 08:37, rigger said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Mine is that both Van Hecke and Khadra will be premier league class players. I don't know if Diaz will.

I don't think that was your point? You said you would take Khadra and Van Hecke in a swap deal for BBD. Khadra is valued at 250k and Van Hecke 1.8m. Would be a crazy idea when BBD value would be between 10-20m.

[Spartakfenni]

On 19/12/2021 at 08:37, rigger said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Mine is that both Van Hecke and Khadra will be premier league class players. I don't know if Diaz will.

You must be one of those that thought the money spent (what ever it was) on Brererton was too much. Forget what’s gone on in his first two seasons he’s on top form. To say that these players who are now performing are better than him is really stretching the point. 

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Spartakfenni said:

You must be one of those that thought the money spent (what ever it was) on Brererton was too much. Forget what’s gone on in his first two seasons he’s on top form. To say that these players who are now performing are better than him is really stretching the point. 

I stand by my statement, only time will tell.

[Elvis Biro]

On 20/12/2021 at 09:28, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I went to the return game with a pal and his much older brother. He paid for us to go in the main stand. That’s the only time I sat in the stands in the old ground. Maybe I jinxed us. We played like we’d been celebrating since Boxing Day. We were never in the game.

I've probably posted this before but my dad ,who went to the match, (I didn't) said that Rovers played like they were all drunk. Probably true, from what other people have said.

[bluebruce]

On 20/12/2021 at 20:51, BigBar said:

I don't think that was your point? You said you would take Khadra and Van Hecke in a swap deal for BBD. Khadra is valued at 250k and Van Hecke 1.8m. Would be a crazy idea when BBD value would be between 10-20m.

Valued where, by transfermarket?  If Brighton value Khadra at 250k, get him signed up pronto.

[roversfan99]

There is no way that transfermarkt or indeed any website can justify accurate transfer values for players. Khadra is not worth only 250k.

[47er]

On 21/12/2021 at 07:51, BigBar said:

I don't think that was your point? You said you would take Khadra and Van Hecke in a swap deal for BBD. Khadra is valued at 250k and Van Hecke 1.8m. Would be a crazy idea when BBD value would be between 10-20m.

Who valued Khadra at £250000? Scrooge? 

[BigBar]

13 hours ago, 47er said:

Who valued Khadra at £250000? Scrooge? 

Transfermarket and other outlets have him in around the same value varying from 150k to 400k. He is out of contract in 6 months if you weren't aware.