v Millwall (h) - Saturday 19th February

[1864roverite]

10 hours ago, rigger said:

No, but if the problem with drainage is a known problem that hasn't been addressed, the only people to blame are the club.

The club do not own the riverside banking nor are they allowed to depend and widen the channel finesse water flow rates the plans were rejected! Rovers cannot control precipitation levels either👍

[had.e.nuff]

14 hours ago, Wheelton Blue said:

I agree.

To be clear, I'm not lambasting anyone & have no opinion as to who was at fault. As I said, I don't really care whose fault it was.

The point I was trying to make was simply that, as a customer of the club  if there was any explanation to be had I'd expect that to come from the club, which as you say has been given to a degree.

It's all a moot point anyway. The club won't criticse the ref, likewise the ref won't openly lay blame on the club. As supporters, we're just expected to lump it.

what explanation are you after do you want to know how high the river was and how it affects the water table and the drain lay out of the pitch .the game was postponed because the ref felt the pitch was not playable. that was the explanation.

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

My point is that I don't understand why you even at any point mentioned Dike and Moore, I can only presume that you have used them solely based on them being the 2 big transfers of the window for forwards at this level, but they are irrelevant, far too dear. Moore has had a stop start season following the Euro's and having had covid earlier in the season but he scored 20 goals last season, he is a marked upgrade on our current striking cast who I have gone into detail about below, but to be honest its irrelevant as he was well beyond our financial means anyway, and doesn't fit our system.

I have never said at any point that we could have come up with a solution to a Brereton injury, in fact I have said that any team would miss its main goalscorer and that it wouldn't be possible to equally replace him. I felt that prior to knowledge of Brereton's injury, that we needed a player capable of playing as one of our (wide) forwards who has more of a goal threat than the majority of our players that we have at the moment, accepting that it wasn't an easy ask. Dolan has lots of qualities, but has 3 goals in both seasons, his goals are infrequent. Khadra has 3 in his first season of senior football, again there is no track record of anything other than occasional goals. Hedges having played as a winger again is far from prolific. You say we have potentially 7 forwards, Vale is not as serious option for a team chasing Premier League promotion having played 20 minutes of football (in a dead rubber) at this level and Markanday has a season ending injury that we knew about a week before the window closed. So that leaves Gallagher as our main goal threat who himself is far from prolific. It's not about how many you have in general, it is whether you have enough of the qualities we need.

Any signing is a gamble and I concede that especially with a limited budget that signing a player (to clarify, I wasn't expecting a 20+ goal striker/direct equivalent of Brereton) was difficult but it wouldn't have to be a 5m plus player either and those examples are irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? It's a very simple point so pay attention this time- Moore is average, he scored 20 one season, look at the rest of his top flight seasons. He cost £5 million. Dike a few good months and he cost £7 million. Some posters were making out it was easy to have a ready made goal scoring replacement for Brereton in case he got injured. You then responded to my post discussing this. FYI, not every post is individually directed at you and your particular viewpoint on a situation. 

Vale could very well score at this level, in fact he actually score more than Forss, who you said would have been a good signing-again look at his record. One decent half a season in League 1. 7 goals in 41 games at this level, worse than Gallagher. You are very selective with what criteria you want in a striker. 

You were completely against signing Obafemi for £2 million in the summer and with the way we play, he would be a better option than that big lump Moore. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Regarding Forss you could say the same about Brererton before this season. How many goals had he scored ?

[Wheelton Blue]

30 minutes ago, had.e.nuff said:

what explanation are you after do you want to know how high the river was and how it affects the water table and the drain lay out of the pitch .the game was postponed because the ref felt the pitch was not playable. that was the explanation.

FFS

Please read the thread properly.

I know that the club offered an explanation of sorts. I've said that in a previous message & don't expect or want anything further.

I originally replied to another poster who wants an explanation from the referee himself. I don't think that it is necessary for the referee to do this.

End of.

[roversfan99]

26 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Irrelevant to what? It's a very simple point so pay attention this time- Moore is average, he scored 20 one season, look at the rest of his top flight seasons. He cost £5 million. Dike a few good months and he cost £7 million. Some posters were making out it was easy to have a ready made goal scoring replacement for Brereton in case he got injured. You then responded to my post discussing this. FYI, not every post is individually directed at you and your particular viewpoint on a situation. 

Vale could very well score at this level, in fact he actually score more than Forss, who you said would have been a good signing-again look at his record. One decent half a season in League 1. 7 goals in 41 games at this level, worse than Gallagher. You are very selective with what criteria you want in a striker. 

You were completely against signing Obafemi for £2 million in the summer and with the way we play, he would be a better option than that big lump Moore. 

The reason that it is irrelevant as to Moore is that you have brought up a player totally randomly, someone that as far as I have seen that nobody has suggested that we should have been in for, someone who is blatantly not suited to how we play, someone who blatantly is beyond our financial means, same with Dike on all but the style points, so introducing them to a conversation about what we could actually have done in the market is as I say irrelevant.

The one thing that Moore does have though is a recent record of scoring goals, something Dolan, Khadra and Hedges dont really offer being natural wide men. Gallagher is far from prolific either and certainly doesnt have a recent 20 goal season under his belt. Moore seems to be a late developer who also really impresses me whenever he plays for Wales especially at the Euros. His recent track record has led to his price tag for a reason.

We seemingly agree that it would have been a difficult task to bring in a forward befitting our style of play that could have really impacted us and offered us a goal threat on a low budget. I have accepted that and have suggested that it would involve a bit of risk and return perhaps in the loan market, perhaps based off minimal first team experience so I get that.

I dont think that I have implicitly said that Forss would have been a good signing. Most of his appearances were off the bench to be honest with Toney the first choice, but he showed an eye for a goal in those cameos. Maja is another one whereby its limited info, factor in his previous injury, but I stand by the fact that we could have done with another forward, that we may rue not getting one and that the likes of Dike and Moore have far more recent proof that they can score goals compared to our current fit forwards, but were both unobtainable hence why no one suggested we sign them therefore are irrelevant in conversations. Plus have unfortunately for them both picked up bad injuries themselves since.

If there is logic in saying that Vale could come in and score at this level, this season presumably, obviously it is not impossible but if thats the logic then anyone could do anything. Nothing suggests he will come in and do that or indeed is even likely to make an appearance at the moment, hence his inability to make the squad since his return regardless of how stretched we become.

[chaddyrovers]

10 hours ago, darrenrover said:

The ref bounced a ball once and he didn't like the bounce of the ball. The snow that had been cleared off the pitch was too close to where the linesmen run up and down the touchline. That was it at 2.15pm!......ludicrous decision. The snow aside the touchline could have been cleared further in 10 minutes and the remaining snow on the pitch within 20.

I spoke to one of our players at about 4pm, before he went home shaking his head and his comment was "the pitch would have taken a long stud, no lying water, what more can I say?"

very correct. Ben Benson told myself that the Rovers and Millwall players to play the game? 

If the pitch was so unfit then why did Rovers GK's do a warm up on the pitch?

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The reason that it is irrelevant as to Moore is that you have brought up a player totally randomly, someone that as far as I have seen that nobody has suggested that we should have been in for, someone who is blatantly not suited to how we play, someone who blatantly is beyond our financial means, same with Dike on all but the style points, so introducing them to a conversation about what we could actually have done in the market is as I say irrelevant.

The one thing that Moore does have though is a recent record of scoring goals, something Dolan, Khadra and Hedges dont really offer being natural wide men. Gallagher is far from prolific either and certainly doesnt have a recent 20 goal season under his belt. Moore seems to be a late developer who also really impresses me whenever he plays for Wales especially at the Euros. His recent track record has led to his price tag for a reason.

We seemingly agree that it would have been a difficult task to bring in a forward befitting our style of play that could have really impacted us and offered us a goal threat on a low budget. I have accepted that and have suggested that it would involve a bit of risk and return perhaps in the loan market, perhaps based off minimal first team experience so I get that.

I dont think that I have implicitly said that Forss would have been a good signing. Most of his appearances were off the bench to be honest with Toney the first choice, but he showed an eye for a goal in those cameos. Maja is another one whereby its limited info, factor in his previous injury, but I stand by the fact that we could have done with another forward, that we may rue not getting one and that the likes of Dike and Moore have far more recent proof that they can score goals compared to our current fit forwards, but were both unobtainable hence why no one suggested we sign them therefore are irrelevant in conversations. Plus have unfortunately for them both picked up bad injuries themselves since.

If there is logic in saying that Vale could come in and score at this level, this season presumably, obviously it is not impossible but if thats the logic then anyone could do anything. Nothing suggests he will come in and do that or indeed is even likely to make an appearance at the moment, hence his inability to make the squad since his return regardless of how stretched we become.

They aren't irrelevant because they show how much teams around us needed to pay for players who are average and/or with limited experience. 

The fact the 2 of them got injured shows the risk involved. It doesn't seem to be a risk we can or were willing at least, to take. I think we have decent forwards in Dolan and Khadra, they just need to start chipping in with goals. Gallagher will get a few and Hedges , well lets hope a few as well. Buckley, Rothwell and eventually Dack as well. The goals are there I think and with our defence, we won't always need many. 

Ya, we agree we could have done with another striker. We could have done with another Centre half too, back up keeper,  and 2 centre midfielders! 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

10 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

They aren't irrelevant because they show how much teams around us needed to pay for players who are average and/or with limited experience. 

The fact the 2 of them got injured shows the risk involved. It doesn't seem to be a risk we can or were willing at least, to take. I think we have decent forwards in Dolan and Khadra, they just need to start chipping in with goals. Gallagher will get a few and Hedges , well lets hope a few as well. Buckley, Rothwell and eventually Dack as well. The goals are there I think and with our defence, we won't always need many. 

Ya, we agree we could have done with another striker. We could have done with another Centre half too, back up keeper,  and 2 centre midfielders! 

We didn’t really need another centre half, we just needed to keep Carter.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

We didn’t really need another centre half, we just needed to keep Carter.

Not sure he is good enough TBH 

I think it was the Huddersfield game where he got bullied 

[islander200]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

We didn’t really need another centre half, we just needed to keep Carter.

Better long term to loan him out.

He wouldn't have played.Keeping him would have stifled 2 players development.Carter would have been playing under 23 football and the under 18 playing u 23 football would have been on the bench for use or back with the 18s.

When needs must Nyambe can fill in there and he did a fine job v West Brom. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, islander200 said:

Better long term to loan him out.

He wouldn't have played.Keeping him would have stifled 2 players development.Carter would have been playing under 23 football and the under 18 playing u 23 football would have been on the bench for use or back with the 18s.

When needs must Nyambe can fill in there and he did a fine job v West Brom. 

Who plays at right back if we move Nyambe ? JRC isn’t up to it, Brown has only just got through the door and I have my doubts about Zefuik, apart from the fact he’s injured. I like Nyambe at centre back but smart teams will exploit his lack of heading abilities.

[islander200]

16 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Who plays at right back if we move Nyambe ? JRC isn’t up to it, Brown has only just got through the door and I have my doubts about Zefuik, apart from the fact he’s injured. I like Nyambe at centre back but smart teams will exploit his lack of heading abilities.

We are talking about a lot of things needing to happen for Carter to play.

We would need 2 centre halves to be out and Nyambe/Zeefuik/JRC/Brown.

Carter looked better after his loan last season but still not what's required for a side chasing promotion.He wasn't even making the squad most weeks, it would have been short term thinking keeping him around and little chance he improves by going back to playing u-23 football every week

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, islander200 said:

We are talking about a lot of things needing to happen for Carter to play.

We would need 2 centre halves to be out and Nyambe/Zeefuik/JRC/Brown.

Carter looked better after his loan last season but still not what's required for a side chasing promotion.He wasn't even making the squad most weeks, it would have been short term thinking keeping him around and little chance he improves by going back to playing u-23 football every week

The only reason he wasn’t making the squad was because we had Ayala on the bench.

[islander200]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The only reason he wasn’t making the squad was because we had Ayala on the bench.

Still sitting on the bench twiddling his thumbs would have done nothing to improve him and if an injury to a centre half Mowbray most likely would have either put Nyambe in a right sided centre back or brought Johnson on.

We are reaping the benefits of Wharton's time away and if still in this division next season then Carter will have a much chance if making an impact at this level by playing week in week out and learning from his mistakes at another club 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

They aren't irrelevant because they show how much teams around us needed to pay for players who are average and/or with limited experience. 

The fact the 2 of them got injured shows the risk involved. It doesn't seem to be a risk we can or were willing at least, to take. I think we have decent forwards in Dolan and Khadra, they just need to start chipping in with goals. Gallagher will get a few and Hedges , well lets hope a few as well. Buckley, Rothwell and eventually Dack as well. The goals are there I think and with our defence, we won't always need many. 

Ya, we agree we could have done with another striker. We could have done with another Centre half too, back up keeper,  and 2 centre midfielders! 

I would disagree that either player is anything but a superior goal threat at Championship level, but equally you could point to numerous players near the top of the goalscoring charts that cost far less, Piroe at Swansea, Riis Jakobsen at Preston, Adebayo at Luton, Gyokeres at Coventry, these players are out there if a detailed recruitment team looks.

But either way, focusing on the players we have left, expecting most of these to start scoring with any regularity seems more out of hope than expectation, that's always been my concern. We are hoping for things to happen that haven't happened before which need too imminently to keep us in the fight for promotion, which is why I and many are worried. Dolan has 3 goals in each of his 2 senior seasons, Khadra has 3 in his 1 senior season, hopefully they can score more, but I could not predict that with confidence. Gallagher has never been prolific and he does not fall into the category of a young player who is about to become consistent, he has always been a fairly infrequent scorer, yet we now rely on him more than anyone. Hedges as a winger has not got a prolific goal record. Rothwell's goals are occasional if spectacular, and Buckley in front of goal is not a good mix. Dack is the exception but he won't be starting anytime soon and it seems won't be involved for the next 2 or 3. I am not saying that these players wont score goals, maybe one or two will go on a streak of scoring, but its hard to be incredibly confident that they will based on history.

18 minutes ago, islander200 said:

We are talking about a lot of things needing to happen for Carter to play.

We would need 2 centre halves to be out and Nyambe/Zeefuik/JRC/Brown.

Carter looked better after his loan last season but still not what's required for a side chasing promotion.He wasn't even making the squad most weeks, it would have been short term thinking keeping him around and little chance he improves by going back to playing u-23 football every week

Always a gamble letting Carter go, and one to which the success of will be determined by what injures and suspensions we suffer between now and the end of May.

You mention playing Johnson at centre back, if that ever needs to happen, even considering the raw elements of Carter's game as a player who certainly has yet to fully establish himself as Championship quality, that would be a noticeable downgrade and could cost us crucial points. Bradley Johnson is not a competent Championship centre back.

Maybe Nyambe's performance v West Brom will help to establish him above Johnson as a third centre back but then again, he still is by far the best choice at wing back with Zeefuik yet to convince in his few starts and Rankin Costello looking an million miles off. Lets hope that Ayala returns soon and of course the main 3 avoid injury and suspension going forward.

[islander200]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I would disagree that either player is anything but a superior goal threat at Championship level, but equally you could point to numerous players near the top of the goalscoring charts that cost far less, Piroe at Swansea, Riis Jakobsen at Preston, Adebayo at Luton, Gyokeres at Coventry, these players are out there if a detailed recruitment team looks.

But either way, focusing on the players we have left, expecting most of these to start scoring with any regularity seems more out of hope than expectation, that's always been my concern. We are hoping for things to happen that haven't happened before which need too imminently to keep us in the fight for promotion, which is why I and many are worried. Dolan has 3 goals in each of his 2 senior seasons, Khadra has 3 in his 1 senior season, hopefully they can score more, but I could not predict that with confidence. Gallagher has never been prolific and he does not fall into the category of a young player who is about to become consistent, he has always been a fairly infrequent scorer, yet we now rely on him more than anyone. Hedges as a winger has not got a prolific goal record. Rothwell's goals are occasional if spectacular, and Buckley in front of goal is not a good mix. Dack is the exception but he won't be starting anytime soon and it seems won't be involved for the next 2 or 3. I am not saying that these players wont score goals, maybe one or two will go on a streak of scoring, but its hard to be incredibly confident that they will based on history.

Always a gamble letting Carter go, and one to which the success of will be determined by what injures and suspensions we suffer between now and the end of May.

You mention playing Johnson at centre back, if that ever needs to happen, even considering the raw elements of Carter's game as a player who certainly has yet to fully establish himself as Championship quality, that would be a noticeable downgrade and could cost us crucial points. Bradley Johnson is not a competent Championship centre back.

Maybe Nyambe's performance v West Brom will help to establish him above Johnson as a third centre back but then again, he still is by far the best choice at wing back with Zeefuik yet to convince in his few starts and Rankin Costello looking an million miles off. Lets hope that Ayala returns soon and of course the main 3 avoid injury and suspension going forward.

In my opinion Mowbray would play Johnson centre half wasn't saying it is what I would do.

It was the right decision to let him leave on loan you don't stifle 2 younger players developments by keeping Carter on the off chance he might be needed.

Carter looked like he had improved when he did play but in his last start when he played CB he was poor and looked out of his depth.

To the people that mattered..the player the manager a loan move was the right option and I agree with it.

Edited February 22, 2022 by islander200

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, islander200 said:

In my opinion Mowbray would play Johnson centre half wasn't saying it is what I would do.

It was the right decision to let him leave on loan you don't stifle 2 younger players developments by keeping Carter on the off chance he might be needed.

Carter looked like he had improved when he did play but in his last start when he played CB he was poor and looked out of his depth.

To the people that mattered..the player the manager a loan move was the right option and I agree with it.

If the attitude is validating the decisions of "the people that mattered" then that would imply that any decision is above us being able to discuss and debate it and would invalidate the whole point of the messageboard. Same with transfers, tactics, the manager, the owners, if all that matters is what decisions the actual experts make, we may aswell not have any opinions or indeed this site.

I would like to think that more consideration went into keeping him as opposed perhaps to say last season whereby every point wasn't as critical at this point in the season. No doubt that on a personal level, him playing regularly is better for him and he seems to be getting plaudits at Portsmouth as he did at Burton. Hopefully it turns out that he would never have been needed here and we keep at least 3 of our 4 centre backs available at all times. If we don't and say we fail to win with Johnson at centre back, then there is certain validity in people questioning the risk taken to loan Carter out, even if he would very much have been 5th choice for 3 places.

[islander200]

37 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If the attitude is validating the decisions of "the people that mattered" then that would imply that any decision is above us being able to discuss and debate it and would invalidate the whole point of the messageboard. Same with transfers, tactics, the manager, the owners, if all that matters is what decisions the actual experts make, we may aswell not have any opinions or indeed this site.

I would like to think that more consideration went into keeping him as opposed perhaps to say last season whereby every point wasn't as critical at this point in the season. No doubt that on a personal level, him playing regularly is better for him and he seems to be getting plaudits at Portsmouth as he did at Burton. Hopefully it turns out that he would never have been needed here and we keep at least 3 of our 4 centre backs available at all times. If we don't and say we fail to win with Johnson at centre back, then there is certain validity in people questioning the risk taken to loan Carter out, even if he would very much have been 5th choice for 3 places.

It will be better for the club longer term him playing week in week out.

He hasn't shown enough to be confident he could step in he was 5th/6th choice and wasn't making the  bench.

My point about the managers decision is he clearly doesn't see Carter as his 5th choice centre back this season to have loaned him out.And yes I think he would have s better idea than any of us considering Carter played once or twice at CB this season.If he wasn't 5th choice no point in him being kept around.

Can you show me where I said other people's opinions didn't matter?Or where I said we couldn't disagree with the managers decision?You are debating something with me I never said.

In MY opinion it would have been the wrong decision keeping him around.Like I disagree that Davenport was kept around.

Edited February 22, 2022 by islander200

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I would disagree that either player is anything but a superior goal threat at Championship level, but equally you could point to numerous players near the top of the goalscoring charts that cost far less, Piroe at Swansea, Riis Jakobsen at Preston, Adebayo at Luton, Gyokeres at Coventry, these players are out there if a detailed recruitment team looks.

But either way, focusing on the players we have left, expecting most of these to start scoring with any regularity seems more out of hope than expectation, that's always been my concern. We are hoping for things to happen that haven't happened before which need too imminently to keep us in the fight for promotion, which is why I and many are worried. Dolan has 3 goals in each of his 2 senior seasons, Khadra has 3 in his 1 senior season, hopefully they can score more, but I could not predict that with confidence. Gallagher has never been prolific and he does not fall into the category of a young player who is about to become consistent, he has always been a fairly infrequent scorer, yet we now rely on him more than anyone. Hedges as a winger has not got a prolific goal record. Rothwell's goals are occasional if spectacular, and Buckley in front of goal is not a good mix. Dack is the exception but he won't be starting anytime soon and it seems won't be involved for the next 2 or 3. I am not saying that these players wont score goals, maybe one or two will go on a streak of scoring, but its hard to be incredibly confident that they will based on history.

Always a gamble letting Carter go, and one to which the success of will be determined by what injures and suspensions we suffer between now and the end of May.

You mention playing Johnson at centre back, if that ever needs to happen, even considering the raw elements of Carter's game as a player who certainly has yet to fully establish himself as Championship quality, that would be a noticeable downgrade and could cost us crucial points. Bradley Johnson is not a competent Championship centre back.

Maybe Nyambe's performance v West Brom will help to establish him above Johnson as a third centre back but then again, he still is by far the best choice at wing back with Zeefuik yet to convince in his few starts and Rankin Costello looking an million miles off. Lets hope that Ayala returns soon and of course the main 3 avoid injury and suspension going forward.

Indeed but we could have spent 5 and 7 million on Moore and Dikes respectively and have the same issue. I think Dolan and Khadra can step up and get on runs. 

[Darrenbot]

Interesting Comments from Rowett,seems to be saying maybe we didn't want to play because BBD was out injured.

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/millwall-boss-it-doesnt-sit-right-that-referee-took-the-blame-for-blackburn-game-being-postponed/

[Miller11]

10 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

Interesting Comments from Rowett,seems to be saying maybe we didn't want to play because BBD was out injured.

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/millwall-boss-it-doesnt-sit-right-that-referee-took-the-blame-for-blackburn-game-being-postponed/

How can Rowett expect anyone to take him seriously when he doesn’t even mention how Ben Benson thought the pitch was playable?

[MarkBRFC]

Probably doesn't know who Ben Benson is.

[arbitro]

41 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

Interesting Comments from Rowett,seems to be saying maybe we didn't want to play because BBD was out injured.

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/millwall-boss-it-doesnt-sit-right-that-referee-took-the-blame-for-blackburn-game-being-postponed/

There is an article further down which essentially lays the blame at the referees door. The author asks the most pertinent question - why was kick off not delayed to give the pitch more time to improve?

It's only hearsay but I was told the referee was complaining on arrival about how bad his journey was from the North East through several snow blizzards. Now anybody who has driven any length in bad conditions will know it can be really stressful. As I said hearsay but if it's true I would ask what frame of mind he would be in to make big decisions.

[only2garners]

21 minutes ago, arbitro said:

There is an article further down which essentially lays the blame at the referees door. The author asks the most pertinent question - why was kick off not delayed to give the pitch more time to improve?

It's only hearsay but I was told the referee was complaining on arrival about how bad his journey was from the North East through several snow blizzards. Now anybody who has driven any length in bad conditions will know it can be really stressful. As I said hearsay but if it's true I would ask what frame of mind he would be in to make big decisions.

Presumably then also his mind would have been on his journey home as well? As it happens it would probably have been fine, even an hour later than he would have planned but he wouldn't have known that at 2.15.

Would there have been an option in that situation (of the ref feeling stressed) for him to swap with the 4th official?

Edited February 22, 2022 by only2garners
additional point