Petrol Head?

[chaddyrovers]

50 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

It is a major problem, for the people who can't park outside their own property. Are you one of them?

Yes sometimes, all depends on when I am home or not

50 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I notice you didn't reply to any of my extensive points about what makes EVs better, I hope you at least read and digested them.

Yes I did read them and there is alot of detail and info for me to digested. I will re read your post several times to properly and fully understand everyone you have posted in 2 posts to me. I apprenticed the info and points you have made.  

If I have any questions I will post them

[ChrisyG]

Vauxhall owner says car plants could shut unless ‘stupid’ UK rules change

Stellantis says it will decide in ‘less than a year’ whether to keep Ellesmere Port and Luton production lines open

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/25/vauxhall-owner-car-plants-shut-uk-stellantis-ellesmere-port-luton

It sounds like market demand for EVs is low, and because of the government policy on EVs, it's becoming more and more difficult for manufacturers. It would be a shame if the Ellesmere Port and Luton factories were closed and all those people lost their jobs. Hopefully, a solution can be found.

[bluebruce]

Just for those who think EVs don't have the range etc to be viable...over in China right now, you can get the Zeekr 009.

Its best version has a max range of 822 km (510 miles) on a full charge and does 0-62mph in 4.5 seconds despite it being a bit of a unit. It's kind of like a luxury minivan. I can't find how quick this version of it is capable of charging, but the 702km (436 miles) version can charge from 10-80% capacity in just 11.5 minutes with the right charger. So even if you only wanted to charge just over 5 minutes, you could add nearly 150 miles of range.

I don't know if/when it will be available in the UK, and the price will likely be unaffordable to anyone reading this (though the very high price is more to do with the luxury element than the battery), but it gives an indication of where the road-ready technology is at. As ever, new technologies take a while to roll out en masse and become affordable to average people, but as ever, it will get there.

That's not even the best battery the battery-makers (battery giants CATL, easily the world's biggest battery manufacturer) have created. They have made a 'condensed' battery that can store twice as much energy per kg, at about 500 wh/kg, which is considered high enough to make small commercial electric planes viable, and is currently being tested in planes in China. Claims of super batteries that aren't already out in the world should be treated with some level of scepticism, but this is CATL. They're the kings of the industry, and when they make claims they follow through.

 

[bluebruce]

Much to my personal surprise (despite being keen on EVs), I'm actually considering buying one! I thought it'd be a few years away for me yet. But basically, my petrol Peugeot 308 (from 2008) just keeps giving me no end of grief. Spending several hundred a year on patching it up, and it still has issues. I've had it since 2017 but it's starting to feel time to give it up.

My worry though has been, what if I spend a few grand and just get a car with as many issues? Whether immediately or a couple years down the line. So I thought I'd check out used EVs on Auto Trader for less than 7k (and 7k would be a stretch for me tbh, would be most of my life savings and I have small cash flow issues currently). There's only really two feasible cars that show up for that sort of price - Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. The Leaf only has about 160 miles of range, which is a bit shy of my needs really, as I'll sometimes be away from home charging for more miles than that and they don't charge particularly fast. The Zoe has 250 miles of range though, which is all I'd need 99% of the time. Saw one for just 4k, but you have to 'lease' the battery, and although they'll replace it for free if it fails or falls below 75% capacity, it would cost me at least 1k a year to do, so fuck that. But I can get ones where the battery is owned for about £5,600. Similar mileage to mine, but 10 years younger.

This is a lot for me, but then I started doing the maths. I estimate I could save about £800 a year in fuel. Vehicle tax would drop from £320 to £0, although most of this would probably be swallowed by increased insurance for a newer car. I'd also need to spend about a grand installing a charger at home, but after about 8 years the car would have paid for itself in fuel savings alone. Quicker if I start driving more for work. In the meantime, it would also likely be cheaper to service (less fluids, so about £50 less to service on average) and presumably I'll have less repair problems, especially compared to my old Peugeot, as there are far less moving parts and it's a decade younger. Maybe going from an average of £300-500 yearly on repairs to £50-150, for a while at least (outside of brake pads/discs, window wipers, tyres and coil springs, I don't think anything that has broken/worn out in my car exists in an EV). I assume I'll get somewhere from £500 to £1k for trading in my car too.

I think all told, I'd be getting ROI (return on investment) vs persevering with my old Peugeot (without accounting for the bigger problems with it probably around the corner) inside maybe 5 years. And still have some sale value left over by then. I'm mostly saying all of this to illustrate that, depending on your needs, situation etc, it possibly is more sensible to buy a cheap used EV than to run a banger. Tbh I wanted to get by for a few more years before switching to EVs, as I think my income will improve and the value on the used EV market definitely will, but I'm not seeing much sense in buying another cheap combustion car that could have a dozen parts about to fail.

There's only really one thing holding me back from taking this plunge - reading online suggests the motor is good for 100k to 200k miles, and the car is at 99k miles...the motor is about 3k to replace! But I could get lower mileage for more money. As I've said before, the batteries last a lot longer than people think, so not too worried there but I can't speak to this car's battery specifically.

I'm probably gonna stick with what I have for the next couple of months, but when my insurance is coming up I'm gonna review my options and see what's on offer.

Also, does anybody have advice on the best place to sell my old car?

[bluebruce]

Scratch that actually, I've since seen that in winter the range can potentially drop to about 115 miles (probably less since the battery isn't new), and that's not going to cut it for me due to the inability of this older model to charge quickly. This is one of the problems with the older battery chemistries, they're nowhere near as resistant to cold as the newer ones (some of which are barely affected by it at all), and they don't charge at speeds of 250 kW like a Model 3 can...this one is limited to 46 kW, so charges at less than a fifth of the speed on a public charger.

Shame, I was nearly ready to take the plunge, but with my current driving needs I'd say I have to be able to get at least 150 miles reliably in all conditions to avoid a faffy amount of pre-planning journeys. Guess it's back to trundling along for another couple of years or so til the prices of better EVs come down and my finances hopefully improve!

[Gav]

Mate of mine just sold a Model 3 performance for £18k. Blistering pace, £17 for 260 miles charge and no maintenance costs to speak of. 

Tesla is the way to go if you can get into one, even an older model. 

[Upside Down]

Hybrid? Surely there's second hand ones around for decent price.

[bluebruce]

On 01/08/2024 at 22:54, Gav said:

Mate of mine just sold a Model 3 performance for £18k. Blistering pace, £17 for 260 miles charge and no maintenance costs to speak of. 

Tesla is the way to go if you can get into one, even an older model. 

Way above what I can rummage together even from all my life savings.

On 01/08/2024 at 23:06, Upside Down said:

Hybrid? Surely there's second hand ones around for decent price.

Might not be a bad shout. I know a lot less about the economics of them though, and none showed in my search at my price point...but since I selected range 250+ miles, I guess they wouldn't! May have to do some research there.

Also reconsidering the Zoe...upon reflection, the times I'd need more than 100 miles in winter would be few enough, and never on one continuous journey, so although it charges slowly I could probably plan around it. Minor hassle on a tiny percentage of my journeys. And looking at the newer small cars (I need small really due to where I park), their stated ranges all seem limited to about 250, more or less same as the Zoe, so god knows how long before anything significantly better in that size becomes affordable on the used market for me.

Back to thinking the main problem is potentially less life on the motor and battery than newer models, and those are expensive fixes if I get unlucky in the next few years.

[only2garners]

Blue Bruce - as we have had electric cars for 7 years and a Zoe for 6 of them I have some comments for you but no time right now to write them. I will post again in the next couple of days.

[bluebruce]

On 03/08/2024 at 21:28, only2garners said:

Blue Bruce - as we have had electric cars for 7 years and a Zoe for 6 of them I have some comments for you but no time right now to write them. I will post again in the next couple of days.

Obviously it's your life, so just reply when you can, but I'd really appreciate those comments as things have moved on apace! 😅

I've found what seems to be a very good deal on one, all the way down in Dagenham though so will be a mild pain to collect. 2017 model, 38,000 miles done, just £4.5k! Apparently other buyers looking though (which I believe given the price...it should be going for about 6 to 7k+ really with those numbers), and would have already sold it yesterday if he'd been able to prove it was battery-owned not battery lease (says the papers have come through today from Renault to prove it).

Getting a few red flags though... mostly because I called him to ask about the battery (more on that in a moment) and also why the price is so low. He said he went off the site's estimate for a battery lease version since he didn't have proof yet that it was battery owned. But is fine with selling it at the quoted price because it was part of a bunch of cars he got in a good deal. He also said webuyanycar had offered £5,700 for it. So why sell it for 4.5k? I thought I'd take a look at whether they were offering that, so I put the reg on the site and first it said they couldn't find the car. Which is weird, as the MOT checker finds it, with the correct details and quoted MOT date. So I entered the car details manually, and they offered about £2,200. Which is genuinely a pathetic price considering autotrader shows the market average for this car with this mileage being about £7,500! So webuyanycar are being cheap, but I also think he's blagging me about what they offered to push a sale (a used car seller being less than honest, who'd have thought...). I also don't think he's a proper dealership, autotrader listed him as EMM Car Sales, but during the convo he mentioned the car was parked on his drive. So if something goes wrong quickly (MOT is good til August next year though) I might struggle for any recourse.

Then there's the battery...a mild concern perhaps. The car has a stated range of 250 miles, but on his description he said 'give 150 miles almost on full charge'. This was the main reason I called him initially, and he said that was his estimate based on what he'd got out of it. He said it was currently showing half full battery and 90 miles (which tbf, there's a photo of that on the listing too). He said he has been running it with the aircon constantly on too, so thinks it might get about 150-180 miles in the real world depending on use but admitted he doesn't know much about EVs. And tbf, Renault themselves 'state real world ranges of 186 miles in summer and 124 in winter'. So it suggests the battery hasn't degraded too significantly, though still seems a bit more than I'd expect for 38k miles based on what I've read about them, though it's also 7 years old, and time has an effect too. Guessing his battery would show a range of 180-200 ish if he fully charged it, which is down at least 20% on what a brand new battery would display fully charged.

My main travel is to Manchester (50 miles), so there and back isn't an issue, except maybe in winter. But I often then stop at my mum's in Darwen (30 miles from Manchester), and either go to Manchester or Preston the next day, and sometimes back to my mum's and do it again the day after, or sometimes home to Blackpool. So there's definitely potential for needing to public charge in winter at times, which will occasionally bring costs closer to petrol costs, and isn't very quick on these models. Also, I only do about 8k miles a year but the battery will still degrade further over the next few years, and I worry that could make me need to top up in public more often. There's also the potential to need to go further (I'm an actor, so though I have two steady gigs with just local travel, god knows where future work might need me).

I probably can't piss around on deciding though, I reckon this one will be gone in the next day or two if I don't take it. Any input greatly appreciated.

[only2garners]

1 hour ago, bluebruce said:

Obviously it's your life, so just reply when you can, but I'd really appreciate those comments as things have moved on apace! 😅

I've found what seems to be a very good deal on one, all the way down in Dagenham though so will be a mild pain to collect. 2017 model, 38,000 miles done, just £4.5k! Apparently other buyers looking though (which I believe given the price...it should be going for about 6 to 7k+ really with those numbers), and would have already sold it yesterday if he'd been able to prove it was battery-owned not battery lease (says the papers have come through today from Renault to prove it).

Getting a few red flags though... mostly because I called him to ask about the battery (more on that in a moment) and also why the price is so low. He said he went off the site's estimate for a battery lease version since he didn't have proof yet that it was battery owned. But is fine with selling it at the quoted price because it was part of a bunch of cars he got in a good deal. He also said webuyanycar had offered £5,700 for it. So why sell it for 4.5k? I thought I'd take a look at whether they were offering that, so I put the reg on the site and first it said they couldn't find the car. Which is weird, as the MOT checker finds it, with the correct details and quoted MOT date. So I entered the car details manually, and they offered about £2,200. Which is genuinely a pathetic price considering autotrader shows the market average for this car with this mileage being about £7,500! So webuyanycar are being cheap, but I also think he's blagging me about what they offered to push a sale (a used car seller being less than honest, who'd have thought...). I also don't think he's a proper dealership, autotrader listed him as EMM Car Sales, but during the convo he mentioned the car was parked on his drive. So if something goes wrong quickly (MOT is good til August next year though) I might struggle for any recourse.

Then there's the battery...a mild concern perhaps. The car has a stated range of 250 miles, but on his description he said 'give 150 miles almost on full charge'. This was the main reason I called him initially, and he said that was his estimate based on what he'd got out of it. He said it was currently showing half full battery and 90 miles (which tbf, there's a photo of that on the listing too). He said he has been running it with the aircon constantly on too, so thinks it might get about 150-180 miles in the real world depending on use but admitted he doesn't know much about EVs. And tbf, Renault themselves 'state real world ranges of 186 miles in summer and 124 in winter'. So it suggests the battery hasn't degraded too significantly, though still seems a bit more than I'd expect for 38k miles based on what I've read about them, though it's also 7 years old, and time has an effect too. Guessing his battery would show a range of 180-200 ish if he fully charged it, which is down at least 20% on what a brand new battery would display fully charged.

My main travel is to Manchester (50 miles), so there and back isn't an issue, except maybe in winter. But I often then stop at my mum's in Darwen (30 miles from Manchester), and either go to Manchester or Preston the next day, and sometimes back to my mum's and do it again the day after, or sometimes home to Blackpool. So there's definitely potential for needing to public charge in winter at times, which will occasionally bring costs closer to petrol costs, and isn't very quick on these models. Also, I only do about 8k miles a year but the battery will still degrade further over the next few years, and I worry that could make me need to top up in public more often. There's also the potential to need to go further (I'm an actor, so though I have two steady gigs with just local travel, god knows where future work might need me).

I probably can't piss around on deciding though, I reckon this one will be gone in the next day or two if I don't take it. Any input greatly appreciated.

Right bluebruce - back now from a heavy family weekend in the south east - I wasn't too far from Dagenham this afternoon!

Ideally with a Renault Zoe you would want one of the newer ones that have a CCS charger. The Zoe that we we had was one of the early ones that only had a Type 2 charger, which meant that you could not do a rapid charge. Not a problem when home charging, when it can easily be charged overnight but a bit of a pain when for example a drive to London meant a stop for an hour to charge. In contrast today we have driven back in our MG5 from Maidstone to Preston - 260 miles with one stop at Corley services for a 20 minute charge. The car was ready before we had time for the toilet and to eat a sandwich meal deal.

I suspect though that you might have a Zoe with just a type 2 charger there though. It's fine as long as you are aware of the limitation.

On battery range I think your salesman has it about right, certainly for an early Zoe. I would say that the best we ever got from ours was about 210-220 miles and that was only in high Summer. In mid winter it could be down to 130-140. Average around 160-180. Stated ranges are always quite a bit higher than real world experience. We never got anything like 250 from the start.

I'm not sure that you're right about further battery degradation. We certainly had none in 6 years of owning the Zoe from new, doing probably less mileage than you will. All the evidence I've seen seems to suggest that battery range is holding up better than expected at first.

I tried to put our Zoe through We Buy Any Car - they offered me £3K and I sold it for £6.7K privately! Obviously they will buy any car, but often will only offer peanuts.

So, overall I would not be concerned about the battery and if you can live with those numbers you'll be fine. The dealer does sound a bit odd - I don't know if there is anywhere that you can check previous ownership and whether it's been in a serious accident?

From your previous posts I have some comments. Firstly bear in mind that electric cars will be subject to vehicle excise duty ("road tax") from next April and at the moment it doesn't seem that there will be a discounted rate for EVs. That might change with the new Labour government but no promises.

More positively you might want to look at energy providers who offer cheap charging rates for EVs. Have a look at this article - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-energy-tariffs/. I'm with Ecotricity and get a rate of 8p per kwh between 1am and 6am, so my home charging is dirt cheap. Ecotricity won't be the cheapest overall - I'm with them for environmental reasons as all their fuel is renewable but charge a bit more than other companies during the day.

The car will also be definitely be cheaper to service but probably more to insure.

Hope this helps but come back with any more questions. I'm around all this week. 

I thought about doing this as a pm but thought that the general discussion might be helpful to others too.

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, only2garners said:

Right bluebruce - back now from a heavy family weekend in the south east - I wasn't too far from Dagenham this afternoon!

Ideally with a Renault Zoe you would want one of the newer ones that have a CCS charger. The Zoe that we we had was one of the early ones that only had a Type 2 charger, which meant that you could not do a rapid charge. Not a problem when home charging, when it can easily be charged overnight but a bit of a pain when for example a drive to London meant a stop for an hour to charge. In contrast today we have driven back in our MG5 from Maidstone to Preston - 260 miles with one stop at Corley services for a 20 minute charge. The car was ready before we had time for the toilet and to eat a sandwich meal deal.

I suspect though that you might have a Zoe with just a type 2 charger there though. It's fine as long as you are aware of the limitation.

On battery range I think your salesman has it about right, certainly for an early Zoe. I would say that the best we ever got from ours was about 210-220 miles and that was only in high Summer. In mid winter it could be down to 130-140. Average around 160-180. Stated ranges are always quite a bit higher than real world experience. We never got anything like 250 from the start.

I'm not sure that you're right about further battery degradation. We certainly had none in 6 years of owning the Zoe from new, doing probably less mileage than you will. All the evidence I've seen seems to suggest that battery range is holding up better than expected at first.

I tried to put our Zoe through We Buy Any Car - they offered me £3K and I sold it for £6.7K privately! Obviously they will buy any car, but often will only offer peanuts.

So, overall I would not be concerned about the battery and if you can live with those numbers you'll be fine. The dealer does sound a bit odd - I don't know if there is anywhere that you can check previous ownership and whether it's been in a serious accident?

From your previous posts I have some comments. Firstly bear in mind that electric cars will be subject to vehicle excise duty ("road tax") from next April and at the moment it doesn't seem that there will be a discounted rate for EVs. That might change with the new Labour government but no promises.

More positively you might want to look at energy providers who offer cheap charging rates for EVs. Have a look at this article - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/ev-energy-tariffs/. I'm with Ecotricity and get a rate of 8p per kwh between 1am and 6am, so my home charging is dirt cheap. Ecotricity won't be the cheapest overall - I'm with them for environmental reasons as all their fuel is renewable but charge a bit more than other companies during the day.

The car will also be definitely be cheaper to service but probably more to insure.

Hope this helps but come back with any more questions. I'm around all this week. 

I thought about doing this as a pm but thought that the general discussion might be helpful to others too.

Thanks O2G, that's very helpful.

Shame, you could have checked it out for me 😂It will need a bit of planning, and dosh, getting down there and back. Public transport down, at least one maybe two (if he doesn't fully charge it for me) charges on the way back. I can't really just go take a look because of the distance, I'll only go if I'm buying.

It does indeed look like it only has the Type 2 charger. I'm seeing mixed things online about how long that takes to charge, anything from 1 hr 15 to 2 hr 30...so it took you about an hour did it, to get I'm guessing a 10-80% charge? What year model was yours again?

I think I can live with the real range it probably currently has, though I'd feel more comfortable if I can get him to fully charge the car and confirm for me what mileage the car claims, so I can deduct an appropriate amount to get a realistic estimate. But I'm more worried about how much it might fade in the next few years...I'd say I need it to have practical mileage for me for the next 4-5 years, and the motor to be ok, for this purchase to make good economic sense. The motors generally last 100k to 200k miles apparently, so I'm confident on that front, and the batteries are the same, but it just sounds like it might have lost a lot already for only 38k miles, makes me wonder if it has an inherent flaw (or maybe somebody just abused how they drove and charged it). But they do say most battery degradation occurs at the start anyway then slows down a lot. So after 6 years owning it from new, you didn't think the range had dropped much at all? Do you know how many miles you had on the clock?

Shame it doesn't have either a much better charging speed like the later ones, or another 50 miles of real world range compared to what I suspect it has, or I'd definitely take it. And without knowing its real range it's hard to figure out how much I'll need public charging. Which costs money and time.

Yeh I knew webuyanycar would be lowball, they only offered me £500 for mine and I was thinking more like 1k (without accounting for the body damage they don't know about yet), but I'm more concerned by the way the seller claimed they'd offered him more than double what the site says, doesn't build trust. However he seems ok with me paying him just a £300 deposit and getting the rest to him like a week after I've taken it, which builds a bit of trust.

I can check its MOT history, mileage is accurate and it's only had tyre issues, the usual amount. AutoTrader have their own checks, and it shows as not stolen and never been written off. Not sure I can check more than that without paying for it.

Yeh for some reason I thought the EV vehicle tax that will probably still happen under Labour because they're having funding issues was something like £20 for most EVs, and only higher if they were classed luxury cars (above £40k). But it looks like that's just new EVs on their first year. Looks like this Zoe would pay £165 as it stands. Which is still about £155 cheaper than I'm paying on my old Peugeot but definitely less of an advantage than I thought and won't fully offset the increased insurance.

Home charging is definitely the way, and I'd been thinking of going with Octopus, who I think also use renewable only, but good to have a list of the alternatives to mull over. The more I have to use public charging the less I'll benefit. One thing I've thought though, is that if I decide in the next year or two it's not enough range for me and I'm wasting too much time and money charging, I can probably sell it for similar to I'm paying, as it's going for about 3k less than the market average.

This is a big decision for me, a lot of my savings when I'm already slightly cash flow negative (the main reason for that though is my bloody car costs!). Could be a massive cost-saving in the long run, or could be a big mistake if a big part fucks up or the mileage drops to unmanageable levels. I guess those kinds of things can happen with any car though! Especially a cheap piece of shit that I can afford lol

[bluebruce]

Hah, I realised where I got the £20 vehicle tax for EVs figure from...that's for any cars (not just EVs) that emit less than 99g/km of CO2...that were registered between March 2001 and March 2017. Obviously the car I'm looking at was registered October 2017, typical, so I'd have to pay £165 (although looking around a bit more, seems like this figure is actually £190...all very confusing).

[only2garners]

One Zoe must have been a 2017 as we sold it last September after 6 years. I can't remember the exact mileage but less than the one you're looking at - maybe 25K? It's certainly true that the battery had not lost any range when we sold it, but based on the dealer's numbers rather than any manufacturer claims. It was a second car for most of its time with us but for about 6 months it was our only car when my son had his car nicked and he borrowed mine. So mostly it was used for local journeys (up to 50 miles from home). A couple of times we took it down to East London and had to charge on the way.

The hour I quoted was based on getting enough power into the car to complete the journey, so was probably to c80%. In any event you should not charge an EV beyond 80% in faster public chargers for two reasons. One, I believe, is that it could do long term damage to the battery to regularly charge up to 100& on fast chargers. The second is that chargers slow down their charge as they get above 80% so it will take longer. In any case, remember that when public charging, you just need to put in enough to get home, both for speed and economy so apart from journeys like bringing it up from Dagenham time is less of an issue. Have a look on ZapMap for chargers near your Mum!

Octopus do have good EV charging rates but you need to look at the whole package, for your other energy needs as well. The article gives you a good starting point.

[bluebruce]

7 hours ago, only2garners said:

One Zoe must have been a 2017 as we sold it last September after 6 years. I can't remember the exact mileage but less than the one you're looking at - maybe 25K? It's certainly true that the battery had not lost any range when we sold it, but based on the dealer's numbers rather than any manufacturer claims. It was a second car for most of its time with us but for about 6 months it was our only car when my son had his car nicked and he borrowed mine. So mostly it was used for local journeys (up to 50 miles from home). A couple of times we took it down to East London and had to charge on the way.

The hour I quoted was based on getting enough power into the car to complete the journey, so was probably to c80%. In any event you should not charge an EV beyond 80% in faster public chargers for two reasons. One, I believe, is that it could do long term damage to the battery to regularly charge up to 100& on fast chargers. The second is that chargers slow down their charge as they get above 80% so it will take longer. In any case, remember that when public charging, you just need to put in enough to get home, both for speed and economy so apart from journeys like bringing it up from Dagenham time is less of an issue. Have a look on ZapMap for chargers near your Mum!

Octopus do have good EV charging rates but you need to look at the whole package, for your other energy needs as well. The article gives you a good starting point.

Thanks again. I've just messaged the seller asking if he can give the battery a full charge and send me a photo of the battery display. I think I need this to make my decision. If he gives it a full charge and it shows 150 miles say, then based on your estimates earlier I'll know in the real world I'm probably getting about 96-108 miles typically, and 78-84 miles in winter, which just isn't good enough. If it shows say, 180 miles, I'd probably get around 115-130 miles typically, and 94-99 miles in winter, which is probably just about adequate for my current needs and should only need minor public charging sometimes (maybe I can borrow a friend's car if I need to go further afield, or use public transport for London and stay at a friend's). If it reads as 200 miles, I'd be getting 128-144 miles typically and 104-112 miles in winter, which should suit for the vast majority of the time, and I'd be happy enough with that to definitely buy. Could probably get a few years out of that before the battery starts edging into insufficient territory.

That said, the battery will have one year of warranty remaining I believe, and they replace the battery if it drops below 65% during warranty...so if it shows below 162.5 miles on the dash, I should be able to get a fresh new battery fitted free of charge! So maybe showing less than that would actually be the ideal scenario 🤣 I'd need to double check the warranty details though.

Also for the 115-130 real world miles I'm expecting it would be capable of, as I suspect it will show 180 ish when charged, it occurs to me that I could probably cope by just changing my driving logistics. Instead of going to Manchester, then Darwen, back to Manchester, to Blackpool, which is about 160 miles of driving so I'd need to add about 40 miles on a public charger, I could go to Manchester then straight back to Blackpool, twice. It's less efficient in terms of mileage, meaning I'd drive about 200 miles, but I could home charge the extra 70-85 miles instead of public charging 40, and it would be far cheaper. Means a bit more driving but I don't really mind, especially since public charging means me waiting around anyway.

Seems like you can get about 3.5 miles per kwh typically with these cars, so with a tarrif of say 9p like Octopus are offering (their ability to fit a charger at a reasonable price tempts me their way) I'd get the extra 70 miles for about £1.80. I dunno what 40 miles of public charging would cost, since it's so variable and I wouldn't be using the fastest chargers, but I know in my Peugeot it would be about £7.50 so I'm guessing at least £5-£6 public charging.

Mad to think that 7,000 miles would cost me about £180 in this thing.

Yeh I'm aware of the 10-80% general rule, but thanks, many aren't. I'd definitely aim to only put in whatever I need for my journey, as I want to maximise the cost savings of home charging. Is ZapMap integrated into the car's satnav, or is it just an app I'd need to download on my phone? This reminds me of one other minor point of concern I had. Currently, I use my phone's satnav and I have this very handy device that clips onto my heater/cooler and into the USB and charges my phone as well as putting it in a convenient position to read. In the Zoe, the car's satnav, which I probably don't want to use, is in this position. I think I could clip it to the vents just below though, or next to the driver door, it's just it would be slightly less safe as I'd need to look further down and take the road almost out of my periphery. I think it's a liveable issue though!

[only2garners]

I just use the ZapMap app. I think there is the ability in the car's satnav for it to direct you to the nearest charger but I never used it - I preferred to make my own decision. I guess there might also be an issue of whether the information in the car is up to date which is important given the constant change.

I think your range estimates might be a bit pessimistic but perhaps that's wise in your situation. I probably would say that you would get better than 130 miles from a 180 miles full battery, but that also depends on your driving style. Just like ICE cars the faster you drive the faster the fuel disappears.

[bluebruce]

31 minutes ago, only2garners said:

I just use the ZapMap app. I think there is the ability in the car's satnav for it to direct you to the nearest charger but I never used it - I preferred to make my own decision. I guess there might also be an issue of whether the information in the car is up to date which is important given the constant change.

I think your range estimates might be a bit pessimistic but perhaps that's wise in your situation. I probably would say that you would get better than 130 miles from a 180 miles full battery, but that also depends on your driving style. Just like ICE cars the faster you drive the faster the fuel disappears.

I was just using your figures really, taking what percentage of the stated miles you got and applying that to if the battery showed the figures I mentioned.

Anyway this ship has sailed and I'm back to the drawing board sadly - the car sold this morning. Apparently somebody came from Manchester to check it out, so I might end up driving past it on my travels 😂 I'll keep an eye out for something similar in future though, it was a hell of a deal but I can't imagine this was the only few days all year that something of that value was available at that price, I've only been looking at the site for a couple of weeks.

I did worry that if I snoozed I would lose on this one. I probably would have pulled the trigger today if he'd have got back to me showing a range of less than 165 (so I could get a new battery on warranty, now or by next year) or above 180 (so it would meet my needs in the real world). It was just that little region of uncertainty inbetween that would have posed a problem.

[Upside Down]

53 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I was just using your figures really, taking what percentage of the stated miles you got and applying that to if the battery showed the figures I mentioned.

Anyway this ship has sailed and I'm back to the drawing board sadly - the car sold this morning. Apparently somebody came from Manchester to check it out, so I might end up driving past it on my travels 😂 I'll keep an eye out for something similar in future though, it was a hell of a deal but I can't imagine this was the only few days all year that something of that value was available at that price, I've only been looking at the site for a couple of weeks.

I did worry that if I snoozed I would lose on this one. I probably would have pulled the trigger today if he'd have got back to me showing a range of less than 165 (so I could get a new battery on warranty, now or by next year) or above 180 (so it would meet my needs in the real world). It was just that little region of uncertainty inbetween that would have posed a problem.

I reckon given your situation you should probably look at either a hybrid or extremely fuel efficient car.

If an opportunity for a good project comes up you've got to go for it and these things are often last minute. You still need to put reliability up at the top of the pile when it comes to a new car.

If it's the environmental concerns regarding a fossil fuel vehicle vs electric then there's far more to consider than just emissions. The minerals required for an EV are many and for every tonne of coltan that goes into building these things there probably a good couple of hundred child soldiers massacring their way through the Congolese jungle.

[bluebruce]

32 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

I reckon given your situation you should probably look at either a hybrid or extremely fuel efficient car.

If an opportunity for a good project comes up you've got to go for it and these things are often last minute. You still need to put reliability up at the top of the pile when it comes to a new car.

If it's the environmental concerns regarding a fossil fuel vehicle vs electric then there's far more to consider than just emissions. The minerals required for an EV are many and for every tonne of coltan that goes into building these things there probably a good couple of hundred child soldiers massacring their way through the Congolese jungle.

I did consider a hybrid, but they don't really add up all that much. I'd still likely need a home charger at about a grand. Whilst an EV has less things to go wrong than an ICE car, a hybrid kinda has more things to go wrong than either, as it needs the parts from both. Plus it's kinda best of both worlds, worst of both worlds. If you're only using the battery range and charging at home, it's cheap, but then you're lugging a fuel tank and possibly some fuel around for no reason. If you go really far, you're not gaining much of that EV efficiency, and you're lugging a deadweight battery around once the charge is gone. I read an article that explained all this better than I am.

A very fuel efficient car, with good reliability, would tide me over for a while. Mine gets about 34 mpg I think, hard to say though. My main concern is getting a car that has a bunch of problems like mine, whether immediately or in a couple of years. But if I can't find something I think is spot on, I'll probably just keep chugging along with my piece of shit until it collapses (hopefully not on the way to a show) or is too expensive to get through an MOT. That Zoe would have been perfect the more I thought about it, gonna keep checking to see if something similar pops up, but also keep an eye out for cheap fuel efficient, reliable cars. Like you say, if a good option appears you have to strike while the iron is hot, as I should have done.

Emissions are a part of the equation, but I don't have the money to get too precious about that yet. I've covered the emissions costs of building EVs before in this thread, and how they're generally negated vs fuel costs at I think it was around 10,000 miles driven. Newer EVs are also moving away from a lot of these rare earth metals, but yes it's a concern that the extraction methods have human rights issues hanging over them. Sadly, so do many, many things in the world that we use on a daily basis (phones for one, and I think ICE cars use a smaller amount of some of these metals). There's only so much you can do to avoid them, but moreover, the car has already been built, sold, and sold on. My buying a used one like I was gonna won't make a jot of difference to the mines. Especially since somebody else bought it anyway.

Edited August 6 by bluebruce

[DeeCee]

Hopefully you've dodged a bullet there? The fact that it was so far away and not from a bona fide dealer were two massive red flags for me!

Not sure of your budget but surely a small decent petrol car would be as efficient given your mileage?

Very interesting thread, I have no inclination to ever own an electric car as a) I have a 3 year old diesel (unfortunately) small van for the dogs and my bike and b) I park it 15 m round the corner from the house.

Edited August 6 by DeeCee

[Upside Down]

2 hours ago, bluebruce said:

I did consider a hybrid, but they don't really add up all that much. I'd still likely need a home charger at about a grand. Whilst an EV has less things to go wrong than an ICE car, a hybrid kinda has more things to go wrong than either, as it needs the parts from both. Plus it's kinda best of both worlds, worst of both worlds. If you're only using the battery range and charging at home, it's cheap, but then you're lugging a fuel tank and possibly some fuel around for no reason. If you go really far, you're not gaining much of that EV efficiency, and you're lugging a deadweight battery around once the charge is gone. I read an article that explained all this better than I am.

A very fuel efficient car, with good reliability, would tide me over for a while. Mine gets about 34 mpg I think, hard to say though. My main concern is getting a car that has a bunch of problems like mine, whether immediately or in a couple of years. But if I can't find something I think is spot on, I'll probably just keep chugging along with my piece of shit until it collapses (hopefully not on the way to a show) or is too expensive to get through an MOT. That Zoe would have been perfect the more I thought about it, gonna keep checking to see if something similar pops up, but also keep an eye out for cheap fuel efficient, reliable cars. Like you say, if a good option appears you have to strike while the iron is hot, as I should have done.

Emissions are a part of the equation, but I don't have the money to get too precious about that yet. I've covered the emissions costs of building EVs before in this thread, and how they're generally negated vs fuel costs at I think it was around 10,000 miles driven. Newer EVs are also moving away from a lot of these rare earth metals, but yes it's a concern that the extraction methods have human rights issues hanging over them. Sadly, so do many, many things in the world that we use on a daily basis (phones for one, and I think ICE cars use a smaller amount of some of these metals). There's only so much you can do to avoid them, but moreover, the car has already been built, sold, and sold on. My buying a used one like I was gonna won't make a jot of difference to the mines. Especially since somebody else bought it anyway.

I drove the EV we have at work and it was the nicest driving car I've ever been in.

The major reservations for me with them is range and longevity. Even Makita batteries take a while to charge and lose their efficiency after a while.

I think in terms of career opportunities you probably want something that you know you can get a long journey out of at short notice. You say you've a steady gig now but that can either change or there could be an opportunity for something special come up at short notice and reliable transport is essential.

[only2garners]

bluebruce - have you considered getting a new EV on a lease deal? It may well be that the money is too much for you but there are deals for some of the newer cheaper EVs at fairly modest monthly payments and the deposit can be as low as 1 month. I haven't looked at any of these in detail as that wasn't the market I was in but on the surface the numbers seem to have come down a lot in the last 12 months. I imagine that's due to the slowdown in sales of EVs to private buyers.

[only2garners]

6 hours ago, Upside Down said:

I drove the EV we have at work and it was the nicest driving car I've ever been in.

The major reservations for me with them is range and longevity. Even Makita batteries take a while to charge and lose their efficiency after a while.

I think in terms of career opportunities you probably want something that you know you can get a long journey out of at short notice. You say you've a steady gig now but that can either change or there could be an opportunity for something special come up at short notice and reliable transport is essential.

I spend some time telling people how much nicer an EV is to drive than an ICE car but it seems that few believe me. Disregarding all the environmental arguments they are just great to drive.

On longevity I have seen nothing to concern me at all in the last 7 years. The Zoe we had for 6 years had no battery depletion at all. There's no sign of it on the MG5 either after 14 months - in fact the last 3 times it's been charged to 100% we have got the highest range we have ever had.

As a general rule anxiety about range is for most people greatly overblown. It is clearly an issue for bluebruce given the market he is by necessity buying in and therefore looking at older second hand EVs with what is now dated technology. Anyone able to get into a new or fairly new EV need have no real worries about undertaking long journeys. I don't in general drive a lot of long journeys these days but in the last 6 weeks or so I've driven to Glastonbury, Newquay and Maidenhead and next week I'm off to Crickhowell. In the 3 journeys I've done we needed to use public chargers a number of times but every time the car has charged up enough before we were ready after a short break, 20 minutes max.

[bluebruce]

On 07/08/2024 at 00:05, DeeCee said:

Hopefully you've dodged a bullet there? The fact that it was so far away and not from a bona fide dealer were two massive red flags for me!

Not sure of your budget but surely a small decent petrol car would be as efficient given your mileage?

Very interesting thread, I have no inclination to ever own an electric car as a) I have a 3 year old diesel (unfortunately) small van for the dogs and my bike and b) I park it 15 m round the corner from the house.

I've either dodged a bullet, or missed a superb bargain. I guess I'll never know. But there are cars about a grand more expensive with nearly triple the miles done that still look like a good deal.

Depends how I calculate what's best for my budget. An efficient petrol car would be cheaper to buy but more expensive to run, with more chance of needing repairs. When looking at a 5 year total cost of ownership, it's fairly unlikely I get a lower cost than that car I missed out on would've been. I have a decent amount of savings, but I'm slightly cash flow negative and hoping I can improve that to slightly cash flow positive within the year (especially if I can cut back on fuel). So I'm mostly trying to figure out what will cost me the least over a 5 year period, as I'm not desperate to save pennies up front, but don't have tons to play with.

Yeh I think if your parking spot is too far from your home it's not worth you getting one as things stand, or probably in the next few years. Who knows how charging options and public charging prices (as renewable rollout increases) might change in the future, but for now, if finances are the main concern it doesn't make sense to get one without home charging. You could get a decent EV van btw, even moreso in the next few years, but again, unless you're flush with dosh it makes sense to keep what you've got while it's working. Cheap, used EV vans with decent range simply aren't available yet.

[bluebruce]

20 hours ago, Upside Down said:

I drove the EV we have at work and it was the nicest driving car I've ever been in.

The major reservations for me with them is range and longevity. Even Makita batteries take a while to charge and lose their efficiency after a while.

I think in terms of career opportunities you probably want something that you know you can get a long journey out of at short notice. You say you've a steady gig now but that can either change or there could be an opportunity for something special come up at short notice and reliable transport is essential.

Makita power tool batteries? They won't have thermal management systems to speak of, so their charge rate and longevity are going to be much shitter than the batteries in an advanced EV. Truly modern EVs, from the right brands, range and longevity just shouldn't be an issue as I keep saying. We have fairly old Teslas now that have managed hundreds of thousands of miles before the battery is done. And ranges of 370 miles (generally about 320 miles real world range) are enough for me to get nearly halfway back from London before needing a charge, which can be done by the time I've had something to eat.

But you live in Australia right? I get that it's different altogether out there if you're driving between cities. But infrastructure is improving, and cars are starting to be released with about 500 miles of range, with further battery tech improvements all the time. So hopefully in our lifetimes we'll all be driving some pretty impressive EVs.

Yeh it's definitely a concern, if I needed to go to London in a Zoe for a gig, I'm very likely to need to plan a very lengthy charge on the way, and hope I get a bay fairly quickly. I have friends in London, and where possible I'd likely use public transport and stay the night, as driving around London is a ballbag anyway. But like you say, at short notice that might not be possible so it's a concern.

Part of me has considered keeping the Peugeot as a backup for a long drive. But then I've still got to MOT it yearly, tax it (I could maybe do a SORN and activate the tax when I need it, not sure if that works at short notice), add it to my insurance instead of replacing it (or I could use Cuvva to insure it for a couple of days tbf). Just sitting around its tyres will get fucked and there may be other issues from not using it for ages. Starts to eat into all those fuel savings...

Besides, only time I've driven outside the North West since I went back to acting full time 2 years ago is Newcastle, and that was just once for a £150 (plus expenses) gig I could live without. So, driving far could come up, but in practice it hasn't. But yeh the option is preferred.