Transfer Window - COMPLETE. Where’s Gregg?

[phili]

17 minutes ago, islander200 said:

The creditors are Venkys themselves tho isn't it?

The situation isn't comparable to Derby as they and Morris owed every man and his dog money?Including the tax man.

Our main creditors are Venky's, Bank of India and the tax man.

Derby was more to Michael Dell and Mel Morris than anyone else. Our smaller creditors and Derby's will be similar. Morris wrote of £200m in loans he gave the club on admin as well as selling the training ground and stadium for a fraction. The new owners had to pay most of the Michael Dell loan back.

[Adam C]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Broughton and Tomasson are the two most qualified appointments we've made during the Venky's reign of terror. 

I have to disagree with this.

Lambert and Mowbray had far more experience of football management when we appointed them. Lambert didn’t last long, and Mowbray couldn’t achieve what we wanted and so has departed.

We’re all trying to be positive but JDL hasn’t done much in his career to say he’ll be any more successful than TM, and I fear that a DoF who is not given the tools to do his job may go the same way as Lambert did. 

[martonrover]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone else think Lancs Live is absolutely shite?

The new Rovers reporter's naivety about the club is evident in his reporting. He sees the club through the eyes of a giddy child.

Edited July 6, 2022 by martonrover

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone else think Lancs Live is absolutely shite?

I regard it as a fake news outlet.

The  amount of ads it carries makes it difficult to navigate on my phone, similar to the LT in that respect.

[islander200]

38 minutes ago, phili said:

Our main creditors are Venky's, Bank of India and the tax man.

Derby was more to Michael Dell and Mel Morris than anyone else. Our smaller creditors and Derby's will be similar. Morris wrote of £200m in loans he gave the club on admin as well as selling the training ground and stadium for a fraction. The new owners had to pay most of the Michael Dell loan back.

 

Derby owed HMRC £30 million,they owed £20 million to Dell and roughly 10 million to other outside creditors.

They even came to a deal with HMRC over the amount paid back.

We don't owe the taxman anything like those sort of figures.

Do we have any loans with Bank of India?Or is it overdraft facility only?

Edited July 6, 2022 by islander200

[RoversClitheroe]

10 minutes ago, martonrover said:

The new Rovers reporter's naivety about the club is evident in his reporting. He sees the club through the eyes of a giddy child.

I know and never ever responds at least Rich responds to fans.

It really pisses me off haha

[roversfan99]

13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I'm interested to see who it is

John Park has only left last week. He met Gregg Broughton and Jon Dahl Tomasson a couple of weeks. 

quality signings is what we need despite how long it takes to sign them. 

Why is it quality OR speed in your eyes?

Of course we need quality and that goes without saying really, but it is a genuine point to want at least a large proportion of the summer business to be done well in advance of the first games. It is not one or the other.

It is important to start well and key to that is getting players integrated in pre season together. WHEN the players are signed isn't the irrelevance you make out, for example it would be no good getting all of the players on the last day of the window, 7 games in!

[phili]

11 minutes ago, islander200 said:

 

Derby owed HMRC £30 million,they owed £20 million to Dell and roughly 10 million to other outside creditors.

They even came to a deal with HMRC over the amount paid back.

We don't owe the taxman anything like those sort of figures.

Do we have any loans with Bank of India?Or is it overdraft facility only?

We owe the tax man around £7m in the last set of accounts.

Bank of India is just an overdraft.

[islander200]

4 minutes ago, phili said:

We owe the tax man around £7m in the last set of accounts.

Bank of India is just an overdraft.

So then our position is nothing like Derby's in the main our debt is owed to the owners.

[phili]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Why is it quality OR speed in your eyes?

Of course we need quality and that goes without saying really, but it is a genuine point to want at least a large proportion of the summer business to be done well in advance of the first games. It is not one or the other.

It is important to start well and key to that is getting players integrated in pre season together. WHEN the players are signed isn't the irrelevance you make out, for example it would be no good getting all of the players on the last day of the window, 7 games in!

Signings need to be done as soon as possible, otherwise the new players are always playing catch-up on fitness and how you want to play.

A good preseason normally dictates a good season. When you have issues in preseason yourl normally know the season is going to be a struggle.

[phili]

2 minutes ago, islander200 said:

So then our position is nothing like Derby's in the main our debt is owed to the owners.

In reality, we wouldn't know until administration

[Gav]

7 minutes ago, phili said:

In reality, we wouldn't know until administration

If take administration now to get rid of these owners, it’s death by 1000 cuts.

Venkys Out.

[islander200]

7 minutes ago, phili said:

In reality, we wouldn't know until administration

Which doesn't look like happening any time soon if ever.As our external debt isn't big enough for the Indians to cut and run.

Not directed at you but being put into admin is mentioned nearly every summer on here. 

Hopefully some day soon they will have had enough and look to move the club on ,one good thing about the wage bill being cut and becoming a little more sustainable we will be more attractive to prospective buyers If the club is ever put on the market.

I just don't think administration Is the way it will end .

 

 

[Mashed Potatoes]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

As far as Im aware, that's not correct.

Technically the money is owed to the parent company but the loans aren't secured against the Club  so there is no realistic expectation of them getting that money back short of us having a lengthy stint in the Premier League. As things stand the owners have shown no inclination of going anywhere for the foreseeable future, quite the opposite in fact and in my opinion if they were that worried by the losses which have been racking up  they would have departed  the scene long ago.

The only caveat to that is the exercise with the training ground which was carried out to ensure FFP compliance. If they were that way inclined they could liquidate that separately to the Club but then again as owners they could have done that at any point anyway.

The position I have set out is the correct legal position and was made in response to another poster who wanted to know the legal position. 

What goes on inside the owners' heads is anybody's guess. The size of the debt and the fact that the training ground is no longer owned by the club would complicate any sale to a new owner. Additionally, it is not clear if there is anybody out there who would be prepared to cover the current level of deficit of revenue compared to expenditure. - and that is before we get on to the question of signing new players with people on this thread demanding somewhere between 6 and 10 new players within the next few weeks as well as calling for the wage structure to be torn up ; at least one poster called for us to "break the bank" to sign a Bosnian centre back that only about 3 of us had heard of a fortnight ago. I think some people on here need to wake up.

[phili]

Just now, islander200 said:

Which doesn't look like happening any time soon if ever.As our external debt isn't big enough for the Indians to cut and run.

Not directed at you but being put into admin is mentioned nearly every summer on here. 

Hopefully some day soon they will have had enough and look to move the club on ,one good thing about the wage bill being cut and becoming a little more sustainable we will be more attractive to prospective buyers If the club is ever put on the market.

I just don't think administration Is the way it will end .

 

 

Administration is very unlikely. It will be sold to one of their friends with Venky's getting some of their cash back.

I always wonder how they get a £15m overdraft every year without fail and what collateral they require for it. 

The amount of hoops I have had to go through to extend my business one this year is horrifying, never mind what we must go through.

 

[Miller11]

13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I'm interested to see who it is

John Park has only left last week. He met Gregg Broughton and Jon Dahl Tomasson a couple of weeks. 

quality signings is what we need despite how long it takes to sign them. 

Before the season had even finished you were claiming it was essential that we replaced Mowbray within 2 weeks to allow him time to bring in players for the start of pre-season. You seemed to think there was a need to rush then, what’s changed? Or are you just altering your opinions based on the (in)actions of the club again?

[Exiled_Rover]

30 minutes ago, phili said:

Signings need to be done as soon as possible, otherwise the new players are always playing catch-up on fitness and how you want to play.

A good preseason normally dictates a good season. When you have issues in preseason yourl normally know the season is going to be a struggle.

This season, at least pre-World Cup, was always going to be a struggle because they spent 5 weeks faffing around appointing a manager (or Head Coach, whatever).

The only reason we have a manager is because Broughton took that shitshow by the reigns and headhunted JDT. 

All of our deals should have been lined up weeks ago. Instead our manager took training with the players for the first time about 10 days ago.

Buckle up and enjoy the ride, it's going to be bumpy.

 

[Miller11]

8 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The position I have set out is the correct legal position and was made in response to another poster who wanted to know the legal position. 

What goes on inside the owners' heads is anybody's guess. The size of the debt and the fact that the training ground is no longer owned by the club would complicate any sale to a new owner. Additionally, it is not clear if there is anybody out there who would be prepared to cover the current level of deficit of revenue compared to expenditure. - and that is before we get on to the question of signing new players with people on this thread demanding somewhere between 6 and 10 new players within the next few weeks as well as calling for the wage structure to be torn up ; at least one poster called for us to "break the bank" to sign a Bosnian centre back that only about 3 of us had heard of a fortnight ago. I think some people on here need to wake up.

Some very valid points there. We are completely reliant on Venky’s continued funding to exist in our present state - a state of purgatory of their own making.

Everyone is hopeful this is the start of a new era and that we might actually see some improvements on and off the pitch, but I think the pessimism is entirely understandable give the events of the last 12 years.

Something has to change. We can’t carry on losing £20 million a year indefinitely. Obviously we all want the team promoted, which immediately solves our financial issues, and gives Venky’s an out. For this to work there’s have to be an element of risk, but an exciting managerial and DOF appointment and restructure aside, all indications are that those in power are happy to continue with a steady process of managed decline and to make modest reductions to the losses here and there. As if that’s any sort of long term answer.

This was always going to be a pivotal summer. If Venky’s make a mess of it, surely that has to be the final straw for even their staunchest defenders.

[roversfan99]

5 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

You’re an intelligent guy, you know there’s more to it than that. The model is based on our budget. We can’t spend money we’re not generating with FFP looming and so the only way to compete is to focus on bringing top youth players through with cheap, rough diamonds from the lower / European leagues, developing them and then generating say £40m a season and reinvesting 50%, similar to the Brentford model which the club have referenced many times.

Do you expect them to come out and say “we’ve got a £16m budget vs £70-100m from those with parachute payments so we’ve just decided we can’t go up!”

The very best we can hope for is to be a sustainable Premier League club and that is the clubs goal. 

The Brentford model is nothing like what we see at Rovers.

Firstly, we are placing focus on the academy. Brentford disbanded their academy team to cut costs and have a B team instead.

You mention reinvestment of say 50%. That clearly isn't happening here. Investment is random and usually below that marker, see last summer where it was essentially nil. Brentford regularly reinvested in cheaper "rough diamonds" and then sell them on and instantly replace.

If it was about FFP, they would have done the full pitch renovation. It isn't. There is not some grand plan on behalf of their owners, or if there is, it isn't evident.

[RoverDom]

I take it this means no fresh transfer rumours / activity today then? 

[briansol]

9 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

This season, at least pre-World Cup, was always going to be a struggle because they spent 5 weeks faffing around appointing a manager (or Head Coach, whatever).

The only reason we have a manager is because Broughton took that shitshow by the reigns and headhunted JDT. 

All of our deals should have been lined up weeks ago. Instead our manager took training with the players for the first time about 10 days ago.

Buckle up and enjoy the ride, it's going to be bumpy.

 

Great post, summed up my thoughts as well. 

We're well behind the other teams because of the late appointments. They've had little time to asses what we have, as well as needing to reestablish the scouting team. It's going to be a bumby ride for sure, the comfort is that at least the new DOF seems a whole lot more competent the previous structure. Just hope he has enough mandate to push things through.

[Irish_Rover]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The Brentford model is nothing like what we see at Rovers.

Firstly, we are placing focus on the academy. Brentford disbanded their academy team to cut costs and have a B team instead.

You mention reinvestment of say 50%. That clearly isn't happening here. Investment is random and usually below that marker, see last summer where it was essentially nil. Brentford regularly reinvested in cheaper "rough diamonds" and then sell them on and instantly replace.

If it was about FFP, they would have done the full pitch renovation. It isn't. There is not some grand plan on behalf of their owners, or if there is, it isn't evident.

Yep we are a world away from Brentford right now, they have a whole structure that is built on the same game plan. Players are scouted ready to come in and take the place of the lads sold on, all at a fraction of the price.

Indeed, one of their "cheaper rough diamonds" that you refer to above roversfan was David Raya. They saw the quality and massive potential there, saw that he was young and only going to get better with better coaching, and saw that we could be done all ends up on the price due to our previous management not seeing what they saw.

We're the suckers that a club like Brentford steal from as part of their business model.

[RoversClitheroe]

1 minute ago, RoverDom said:

I take it this means no fresh transfer rumours / activity today then? 

Pretty much yep

[Crimpshrine]

2 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

 

Broughton and Tomasson are the two most qualified appointments we've made during the Venky's reign of terror. 

I really hope Broughton is successful but I don't think he is particularly well qualified for his current role after working mainly in youth football at smaller clubs. He is an unknown quantity and has a steep learning curve - especially with Venky's in mind.

I think Paul Senior had more experience and that didn't exactly work out.

 

[Paul Mani]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The Brentford model is nothing like what we see at Rovers.

Firstly, we are placing focus on the academy. Brentford disbanded their academy team to cut costs and have a B team instead.

You mention reinvestment of say 50%. That clearly isn't happening here. Investment is random and usually below that marker, see last summer where it was essentially nil. Brentford regularly reinvested in cheaper "rough diamonds" and then sell them on and instantly replace.

If it was about FFP, they would have done the full pitch renovation. It isn't. There is not some grand plan on behalf of their owners, or if there is, it isn't evident.

I didn’t say that’s what we’ve done historically - if you draw a straight line between what GB and JDT said upon their appointment and the aim of being a sustainable Premier League club, the answers to what they are trying / hoping to do lie somewhere in what I’ve said. I appreciate that there’s no evidential proof of that happening previously but it appears to be what they want to do.