Transfer Window - COMPLETE. Where’s Gregg?

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:18, xtp said:

You're thinking of the loyalty bonus. We pay that if they haven't put in a transfer request. But it is definitely not equivalent to the whole rest of their contract.

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Correct.

[G Somerset Rover]

De Jong is a completely different kettle of fish. He’s on silly money at Barca and wants to stay. Barca want him to stay but want to pay him pretty much half his current wages due to their ‘financial issues’ in registering players.

If BBD leaves he’ll go onto be on far better money than at Rovers anyway.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[islander200]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:26, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

De Jong is a completely different kettle of fish. He’s on silly money at Barca and wants to stay. Barca want him to stay but to pay him pretty much half his current wages.

If BBD leaves he’ll go onto be on far better money than at Rovers.

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Yeah Barca owe him unpaid wages so its a different situation entirely 

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:16, islander200 said:

Players get a loyalty payment for not requesting the transfer they don't get their contracts paying in full if the money on offer is the same or above their current deal.

If Brererton was on 20k per week here and we sold him to a team who were only paying him 15k per week then we would have to pay him off that 5k per week(if a settlement couldn't be reached) not the full 20k 

Barca owe De Jong wages 

 

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We wouldn't even have to pay him the £5k p.w.

Either he moves and takes the £5k p.w. hit because he decides the footballing prospects are better elsewhere or he decides he'd rather have the extra £5k p.w. and stays put.

In the latter scenario, the Club can't force him to move.

[tomphil]

  On 07/08/2022 at 12:31, Sweaty Gussets said:

Dack signed the new deal in between the two injuries.

I think it was reported by someone who has met Waggott that he said Venky's would indeed rather lose money on a player and let him walk away on a free than sell before they want to or before their valuation is met (as they did with Rothwell)

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Must be some kind of tax write off or FFP advantage in doing it somehow or they wouldn't entertain it.  It goes against all they are supposed to be doing here with a Brentford model also Waggots penny pinching mantra.

They'd literally be getting anything they could for anyone as contracts run down i refuse to believe it's a football related decision on their part.

[J*B]

OK, next time you’re going on holiday buy the book “Done Deal” by Daniel Geey and read it on the beach. 

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:18, xtp said:

You're thinking of the loyalty bonus. We pay that if they haven't put in a transfer request. But it is definitely not equivalent to the whole rest of their contract.

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You’re right, it’s in the most part not the whole rest of their contract. As I said in the original post, it’s storytelling. But as a basic point, if BBD is on a 40K, 4 year deal here then moves to let’s say Seville on a 50K, 4 year deal, he will be entitled to a huge payment (call it a loyalty bonus, call it wages, call it whatever you want) to leave.

If we’re being very technical I would suspect a buyout in a contract like Gav originally suggested would have a caveat saying something like “if the player choses to leave when the buyout fee is activated then he waives the right to his loyalty bonus”. 

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:20, RevidgeBlue said:

That's clearly wrong - why do you think then that players on big deals who have become surplus to requirements opt to sit out their deals rather than move for less money elsewhere?

According to you they'd get paid twice!

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They do move for less money elsewhere if a negotiation happens, but if there’s no negotiation eg a club refuse to accept an offer because it would cost them money they hold on and hope for the China/MLS move. See Bale, Ramsey, Oscar. 

[RV Blue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 12:58, J*B said:

Brilliant. Here’s what happens next, alongside some story telling…

He signs a new 4-year contract on 40K a week with a 17M release fee. His contract is now worth £8,320,00. 

He scores 10 goals by 20th Jan. Leeds are in the bottom three, 5 points from safety and Bamford gets injured. They immediately offer us the 17M and Ben goes. 

We pay off his contract that we owe him and are left with 7.5M, of which Forest take their 10%. We now have 6.75M and Ben stands us at a loss in FFP, so we can’t sign a replacement. 

Rovers pick up 4 points from 27 relying on Markanday to replace Ben. Furious, JDT walks. We hire Mowbray to steady the ship. 

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You don’t half talk some nonsense

[joey_big_nose]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:16, islander200 said:

Players get a loyalty payment for not requesting the transfer they don't get their contracts paying in full if the money on offer is the same or above their current deal.

If Brererton was on 20k per week here and we sold him to a team who were only paying him 15k per week then we would have to pay him off that 5k per week(if a settlement couldn't be reached) not the full 20k 

Barca owe De Jong wages 

 

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I don't think there's any legal or professional body requirement for that to happen. Its just usually the player will refuse to move unless the "top up" to his existing contract is paid by his existing club so he doesn't lose out by moving to a lower salary at a new club.

Which makes sense really. Not many people will voluntarily walk away from money contractually owed to them.

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:31, RevidgeBlue said:

We wouldn't even have to pay him the £5k p.w.

Either he moves and takes the £5k p.w. hit because he decides the footballing prospects are better elsewhere or he decides he'd rather have the extra £5k p.w. and stays put.

In the latter scenario, the Club can't force him to move.

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This is nonsense. I’m telling you this happens in every transfer because I’ve seen it with my own eyes in minor transfers.

I have seen someone be paid over 200K to leave a football club on a transfer and sign for a UK team. He was entitled to more because of his wages and contract duration, but wanted to come home. 

[BlackburnEnd75]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:42, J*B said:

This is nonsense. I’m telling you this happens in every transfer because I’ve seen it with my own eyes in minor transfers.

I have seen someone be paid over 200K to leave a football club on a transfer and sign for a UK team. He was entitled to more because of his wages and contract duration, but wanted to come home. 

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My understanding was it is upto the club if they want to subsidise the players lower wage to facilitate a transfer. 

It's basically what United have to do with a lot of fringe players that sensible teams won't pay silly wages to. Player won't give up 100k a week for 40k a week elsewhere. Club has to pay them 50-60k a week to save 40k a week and some transfer fee.

I've never heard of a fairly unwilling seller subsidising a players wage to make a move happen. Then surely it becomes the players choice if he wants to sell his talents for less money. 

[USABlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 12:58, J*B said:

Brilliant. Here’s what happens next, alongside some story telling…

He signs a new 4-year contract on 40K a week with a 17M release fee. His contract is now worth £8,320,00. 

He scores 10 goals by 20th Jan. Leeds are in the bottom three, 5 points from safety and Bamford gets injured. They immediately offer us the 17M and Ben goes. 

We pay off his contract that we owe him and are left with 7.5M, of which Forest take their 10%. We now have 6.75M and Ben stands us at a loss in FFP, so we can’t sign a replacement. 

Rovers pick up 4 points from 27 relying on Markanday to replace Ben. Furious, JDT walks. We hire Mowbray to steady the ship. 

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How do you live like that?

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:49, BlackburnEnd75 said:

My understanding was it is upto the club if they want to subsidise the players lower wage to facilitate a transfer. 

It's basically what United have to do with a lot of fringe players that sensible teams won't pay silly wages to. Player won't give up 100k a week for 40k a week elsewhere. Club has to pay them 50-60k a week to save 40k a week and some transfer fee.

I've never heard of a fairly unwilling seller subsidising a players wage to make a move happen. Then surely it becomes the players choice if he wants to sell his talents for less money. 

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Example… and again, this is all a HYPOTHETICAL scenario which nobody can accurately portray because we’re fans on a forum not involved in any of this:

Rovers get a 20M bid for Brereton from Seville. They want to keep Brereton, but he isn’t signing a new deal. Brereton isn’t in a rush to go to Seville, he’s playing well for Rovers, has a new born on the way, his missus doesn’t like the sound of Spain and he only has 12 months on his deal.

JDT and GB decide to replace BBD they will need to spend 6M and have the players lined up. Forest will get their 10%, so Rovers stand to replace Brereton and gain 12M quid if the transfer goes through.  If Ben holds firm and says “I’m not in a rush to go to Seville, they’re only offering me 30K a week, I’ll see what’s available next year when my deal runs out, I think I can do better.” 

How much of that 12M quid are you willing to give back to Ben for him to leave? 2M? 4M? 6M? 

[BlackburnEnd75]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:59, J*B said:

Example… and again, this is all a HYPOTHETICAL scenario which nobody can accurately portray because we’re fans on a forum not involved in any of this:

Rovers get a 20M bid for Brereton. They want to keep Brereton, but he isn’t signing a new deal. Brereton isn’t in a rush to go to Seville, he’s playing well for Rovers, has a new born on the way, his missus doesn’t like the sound of Spain and he only has 12 months on his deal.

JDT and GB decide to replace BBD they will need to spend 6M and have the players lined up. Forest will get their 10%, so Rovers stand to replace Brereton and gain 12M quid if the transfer goes through.  If Ben holds firm and says “I’m not in a rush to go to Seville, they’re only offering me 30K a week, I’ll see what’s available next year when my deal runs out, I think I can do better.” 

How much of that 12M quid are you willing to give back to Ben for him to leave? 2M? 4M? 6M? 

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I think I get the point your trying to make now. 

My answer to that hypothetical would be nothing. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:59, J*B said:

Example… and again, this is all a HYPOTHETICAL scenario which nobody can accurately portray because we’re fans on a forum not involved in any of this:

Rovers get a 20M bid for Brereton from Seville. They want to keep Brereton, but he isn’t signing a new deal. Brereton isn’t in a rush to go to Seville, he’s playing well for Rovers, has a new born on the way, his missus doesn’t like the sound of Spain and he only has 12 months on his deal.

JDT and GB decide to replace BBD they will need to spend 6M and have the players lined up. Forest will get their 10%, so Rovers stand to replace Brereton and gain 12M quid if the transfer goes through.  If Ben holds firm and says “I’m not in a rush to go to Seville, they’re only offering me 30K a week, I’ll see what’s available next year when my deal runs out, I think I can do better.” 

How much of that 12M quid are you willing to give back to Ben for him to leave? 2M? 4M? 6M? 

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That seems to be a rather different situation to the one you were postulating above where you seemed to be saying that on a move by Brereton the club would have a contractual obligation to pay him a large amount of money whereas in the situation you have outlined above it is a matter of negotiation between player and club.

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:01, BlackburnEnd75 said:

I think I get the point your trying to make now. 

My answer to that hypothetical would be nothing. 

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Great, so let’s carry it on.

He scores 20 goals and Rovers finish 9th. He leaves in summer on a free and joins Leeds on 50K a week. 

Ben will earn more money over the length of his contract, despite rejecting 30K a week in Seville. 

Leeds get a striker on a free transfer. 

Rovers have to now sign a replacement but don’t have the money to play with that they would have if he had joined Sevilla.  

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:59, J*B said:

How much of that 12M quid are you willing to give back to Ben for him to leave? 2M? 4M? 6M? 

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Nothing.

And Rovers would receive £18m not £12m after Forest's 10% in the hypothetical scenario you describe. 

The only thing you might do if you were Rovers  is if he were due a loyalty bonus if he made it to the end of his contract you might make some concession in that respect if there was a sale before then  with everyone's blessing.

[tomphil]

All things are negotiable. 

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:05, J*B said:

Great, so let’s carry it on.

He scores 20 goals and Rovers finish 9th. He leaves in summer on a free and joins Leeds on 50K a week. 

Ben will earn more money over the length of his contract, despite rejecting 30K a week in Seville. 

Leeds get a striker on a free transfer. 

Rovers have to now sign a replacement but don’t have the money to play with that they would have if he had joined Sevilla.  

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That would be tough luck on our part. 

You can't bribe a player to move by offering him cash back on any transfer deal.

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:03, Mashed Potatoes said:

That seems to be a rather different situation to the one you were postulating above where you seemed to be saying that on a move by Brereton the club would have a contractual obligation to pay him a large amount of money whereas in the situation you have outlined above it is a matter of negotiation between player and club.

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It’s the same thing it’s just worded slightly differently. 

Rovers have a contractual obligation to pay their players the weekly wage agreed for the duration of their contracts. 

Players hold all the cards, if they don’t want to leave (for whatever reason - don’t like the move, don’t want to go abroad, think they can get a better deal with a different club, want to go on a free) then Rovers need to find a way to encourage that deal to go through. They can’t just pay a boat load of money to someone for no reason, so they pay off their contract… which is exactly the same as someone moving for less money i.e.

Ben, you’re doubling your wages to move to Sevilla. On top of that, Rovers will pay you a ‘loyalty bonus’ of 5K / week for the duration of your contract, which is half the 10K a week you’ll earn if you stay. That’s 260K from the transfer fee to accept the Seville deal. 

[phili]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:11, islander200 said:

We wouldn't be paying his contract up.Transfers wouldn't happen if that was the case 

So when we sold Rhodes we had to pay off the remaining years left on his contract at 35k per week?And he walks into another 4 year contract at Boro on the same money or better than he was on here?

Payoffs only happen if the player leaving is joining a club on a less lucrative contract which Brererton wouldn't.

Do you think Barca had to pay Neymars contract off when he joined PSG?

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Barca have to or the Spanish FA do not release him to play. All Spanish registered players have release clauses in their contracts that have to be met. All funds have to go through La Liga/Spanish FA to ensure that everything is paid 

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:11, RevidgeBlue said:

That would be tough luck on our part. 

You can't bribe a player to move by offering him cash back on any transfer deal.

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That’s exactly my point, they can’t just say “Ben here’s 2M in cash, disappear.” but what they can do is pay them a settlement on their wages… like I started by saying!

[J*B]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:07, RevidgeBlue said:

Nothing.

And Rovers would receive £18m not £12m after Forest's 10% in the hypothetical scenario you describe. 

The only thing you might do if you were Rovers  is if he were due a loyalty bonus if he made it to the end of his contract you might make some concession in that respect if there was a sale before then  with everyone's blessing.

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You’re not reading my posts -

20M transfer fee

2M for Forest, 10% of the transfer fee

6M to replace him 

Rovers set to gain 12M. 
 

The ‘loyalty bonus’ you’re describing are his wages. He is set to earn X if he stays to the end of his deal, so you make a concession and pay him Y to leave now with everybody’s blessing. 

[Iceman]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:16, islander200 said:

Players get a loyalty payment for not requesting the transfer they don't get their contracts paying in full if the money on offer is the same or above their current deal.

If Brererton was on 20k per week here and we sold him to a team who were only paying him 15k per week then we would have to pay him off that 5k per week(if a settlement couldn't be reached) not the full 20k 

Barca owe De Jong wages 

 

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Barca only owes FDJ once he leaves, the wages that were deferred. The whole issue with FDJ, is that Barca want to sell him, but only for a fee that will allow them to pay FDJ the wages owed to him. The only club that has offered enough, is Man United who have offered 85mill. FDJ doesn't want to join United, which is causing issues.

[RevidgeBlue]

  On 07/08/2022 at 14:13, J*B said:

That’s exactly my point, they can’t just say “Ben here’s 2M in cash, disappear.” but what they can do is pay them a settlement on their wages… like I started by saying!

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You might pay part of someone's contract up to get them off the wage bill if they're stinking the place out and have the chance to move somewhere on lesser money and you want to save a bit of money at the same time.

That's a million miles away from your original proposition that if a player wants to move and you're a reluctant seller you are OBLIGATED to pay up their contract as well just to rub salt in the wound.

In BBD's case he'd be moving for more money so the considerations in my first paragraph don't apply. And I don't believe the owners need the money that badly in the first place, let alone pay up the remainder of his contract when they don't have to to ease him out of the door.

[Iceman]

  On 07/08/2022 at 13:20, RevidgeBlue said:

That's clearly wrong - why do you think then that players on big deals who have become surplus to requirements opt to sit out their deals rather than move for less money elsewhere?

According to you they'd get paid twice!

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Well he isn't wrong either. A player who hands in a transfer request, forefeits any future wage payments left on his contract. If the club says we want to sell you ala the FDJ situation at Barca, then it's different as the club has to include whatever is owed for the amount of years left on his contract..