v Derby County (h) - 15/3/22

[roversfan99]

11 minutes ago, rigger said:

It's all assumed nonsense, as no-one outside of the dressing room, knows what was said or by whom. 

Correct, and to be honest its all fairly irrelevant anyway, its a results based game, and we won, therefore a desperation to discredit the manager using assumptions of behind the scenes activities, observations of his body language and analysis of what he said after guiding us to the aforementioned victory are unfair. Just as he got pelters at the weekend when we lost, he gets praise when we win, even acknowledging the strange initial tactics that he managed to rectify.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, rigger said:

It's all assumed nonsense, as no-one outside of the dressing room, knows what was said or by whom. 

They certainly do

[DaveyB]

Just a thought that occurred to me earlier - I’ve seen a lot of comments on here praising the second half performance last night and stuff like “that’s how we should have been playing” etc, however the only real difference between last night and the last few weeks (yesterday’s 1st half excepted) is that we took our chances. For instance, the goals we scored last night, we had almost exactly the same chances on Saturday but didn’t take any of them -
1st goal, Wharton free header from a corner, on Saturday he put it wide
2nd goal - point blank header inside the 6yd box - on Saturday Lenihan put it straight at the keeper
3rd goal - striker arriving on the end of a cross from the left - on Saturday Dack screws it wide

So, whilst it was much improved from the first 45 minutes (let’s be honest it couldn’t have been worse), the performance was very similar to how we’ve been playing lately* - we just got the rewards from it whereas we haven’t previously. 
 

* in fact I’d argue that the performances against Sheff Utd and definitely Millwall were far better than last night - just without the clinical finishing 

[Bbrovers2288]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

We are in the mix come the end, we are going into our final 8 games now and are 4th, whether we drop a place or two due to games in hand or not, we are very much in the mix going into the home straight. I would tend to agree that the quality in the league in general (not just this season) is shall we say unremarkable, but its important to put into context that Mowbray himself is hardly working at an advantage to our rivals. This season, we sold our best player at a massive profit, our other best player has only just returned from a second ACL, and aside from a nominal fee for a squad player, our owners gave him none of those proceeds to reinvest, and not only that, prevented him from selling someone in January to reinvest.

The path to which our season has taken does Mowbray no favours in the perception of him either, partially justifiably but only if people don't lose sight of the fact that a top 6 finish would be a very good achievement. Had our poor spell been before the good spell, then the whole mood would be different. Many of the (again, it is fair to question tactics when they don't work) tactics used were critical to our good run, the false 9, the back 3, wing backs, wide forwards etc.

It seems that like many, any sort of acknowledgment of the things he does get right is some sort of desperate and illogical attempt to defend him. I hardly have an unwavering loyalty towards him, I wanted him out last summer and before that, and I keep saying that should we not finish in the top 6, as you seem certain of and to be honest I am not confident in, then I would make a change. I have also repeatedly criticised the tactics in the first half last night that made no sense, equally I have praised him for being proactive in changing that and ultimately that was enough to get us a crucial win, therefore the first half tactics as crazy as they were haven't harmed us. I also haven't reverted to criticising his touchline demeanour, expecting him to be charging around like a mad man when he is not that sort of guy, or picking apart his post match interview to find ways to undermine him after he has led us to victory. 

 

He has set the team up to have a distinct lack of goals or ideas in recent months , he also didn’t change it to win the games at Millwall or Bristol city , my issue on him is tactics, lack of nous to affect games in our favour and generally his poor managerial record, I couldn’t give a shit about his demeanour albeit he hardly inspires enthusiasm. The fact you talk about this path but it’s the same every year with mowbray so it’s not as if this is a one off . I don’t like the term death spirals in all honesty but he has no plan b and can’t change when things aren’t going our way . Stubborn and moronic at times 

[Bbrovers2288]

Just now, DaveyB said:

Just a thought that occurred to me earlier - I’ve seen a lot of comments on here praising the second half performance last night and stuff like “that’s how we should have been playing” etc, however the only real difference between last night and the last few weeks (yesterday’s 1st half excepted) is that we took our chances. For instance, the goals we scored last night, we had almost exactly the same chances on Saturday but didn’t take any of them -
1st goal, Wharton free header from a corner, on Saturday he put it wide
2nd goal - point blank header inside the 6yd box - on Saturday Lenihan put it straight at the keeper
3rd goal - striker arriving on the end of a cross from the left - on Saturday Dack screws it wide

So, whilst it was much improved from the first 45 minutes (let’s be honest it couldn’t have been worse), the performance was very similar to how we’ve been playing lately* - we just got the rewards from it whereas we haven’t previously. 
 

* in fact I’d argue that the performances against Sheff Utd and definitely Millwall were far better than last night - just without the clinical finishing 

We played well for 20 minutes , derby had chances to equalise and we didn’t exactly look like scoring ourselves again until Giles crossed for gallagher, after they were down to 10. Saying it was a brilliant 45 are wide of the mark . A bit of effort and quality at last saw us turn it around

[jim mk2]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Correct, and to be honest its all fairly irrelevant anyway, its a results based game, and we won, therefore a desperation to discredit the manager using assumptions of behind the scenes activities, observations of his body language and analysis of what he said after guiding us to the aforementioned victory are unfair. Just as he got pelters at the weekend when we lost, he gets praise when we win, even acknowledging the strange initial tactics that he managed to rectify.

There were no "assumptions" on what was happening between Mowbray and the players. It's all out there

Mowbray gets praise when it's due.

After the appalling run we've had a good 20 minutes against a bottom 3 team after the worst 45 minutes that many supporters of decades standing described as the worst they've seen, he's a long way to go to win supporters' trust again.

[Paul Mellelieu]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There’d certainly be some changes out there.

We were all glad he left for Newcastle.

[rigger]

8 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

There were no "assumptions" on what was happening between Mowbray and the players. It's all out there

Mowbray gets praise when it's due.

After the appalling run we've had a good 20 minutes against a bottom 3 team after the worst 45 minutes that many supporters of decades standing described as the worst they've seen, he's a long way to go to win supporters' trust again.

What's all out, where ?

[Paul Mellelieu]

21 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

There were no "assumptions" on what was happening between Mowbray and the players. It's all out there

Mowbray gets praise when it's due.

After the appalling run we've had a good 20 minutes against a bottom 3 team after the worst 45 minutes that many supporters of decades standing described as the worst they've seen, he's a long way to go to win supporters' trust again.

Where is it Jim?

[jim mk2]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mellelieu said:

We were all glad he left for Newcastle.

 That's true. Amid all the praise for Souness it was a relief when he finally left. The club should have sacked him but Newcastle made the decision for John Williams

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, Geoff66 said:

Probably were your football knowledge comes from Darwen give credit to the team not one ore two.

I have no idea what that post was trying to say, but I suspect you've completely misunderstood the conversation, and pointlessly and ineffectively tried to insult Darwen.

Edited March 16, 2022 by bluebruce

[Mattyblue]

When have you praised TM, Jim?

[roversfan99]

18 minutes ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

He has set the team up to have a distinct lack of goals or ideas in recent months , he also didn’t change it to win the games at Millwall or Bristol city , my issue on him is tactics, lack of nous to affect games in our favour and generally his poor managerial record, I couldn’t give a shit about his demeanour albeit he hardly inspires enthusiasm. The fact you talk about this path but it’s the same every year with mowbray so it’s not as if this is a one off . I don’t like the term death spirals in all honesty but he has no plan b and can’t change when things aren’t going our way . Stubborn and moronic at times 

You perhaps have perfectly illustrated the point I am making, that he gets no praise for what he does right and only focus and criticism for what he does wrong.

Would you say that he also deserve the praise during that time for keeping us tight and resolute at the back, with us having the most clean sheets in the league I believe? And do you think universally that he gets that praise? Most if not all people (me included) didn't think he was capable of organising a defence, but he has done and even throughout our barren run, we kept 7 clean sheets in those 13 games that we only scored 3 in.

The lack of goals has been a huge issue and he has got loads of warranted criticism for that, again from me included. Having our main goal threat from this season in a 20 goal striker would hinder every team in the league, on top of our other main goal threat also being out to long term injury and his January signing being injured too. So mitigating circumstances, but 3 in 13 is unacceptable no matter how its dressed up, no team should be so bad in front of goal and Mowbray deserved stick for it.

 

5 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

There were no "assumptions" on what was happening between Mowbray and the players. It's all out there

Mowbray gets praise when it's due.

After the appalling run we've had a good 20 minutes against a bottom 3 team after the worst 45 minutes that many supporters of decades standing described as the worst they've seen, he's a long way to go to win supporters' trust again.

The thing is you are like many not allowing yourself to judge Mowbray without your pre-conceived opinion of him to spill over ahead of any neutrality.

Take Allardyce for example.  manager I think you understandably rated highly, but one that always prioritised results over performances. If he had won a game after making a tactical error with his starting 11, but made a double change at half time which saw us quickly take the lead and in the end win comfortably, would you equally say it was only a "good 20 minutes" against "a bottom 3 team" (technically true although 16th best based on points) and start implying that it was the players who instigated the turnaround and not the manager? No you wouldn't.

We won the game, he deserves at least some acknowledgement. As much as I am onboard with the criticism of the bizarre initial tactics, he fixed it.

[jim mk2]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

We won the game, he deserves at least some acknowledgement. As much as I am oboard with the criticism of the bizarre initial tactics, he fixed it.

That's the point - he didn't fix it. The players did

If he gets us in the play-offs Tony will deserve some credit, but we're not there yet by a long chalk

[Bbrovers2288]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You perhaps have perfectly illustrated the point I am making, that he gets no praise for what he does right and only focus and criticism for what he does wrong.

Would you say that he also deserve the praise during that time for keeping us tight and resolute at the back, with us having the most clean sheets in the league I believe? And do you think universally that he gets that praise? Most if not all people (me included) didn't think he was capable of organising a defence, but he has done and even throughout our barren run, we kept 7 clean sheets in those 13 games that we only scored 3 in.

The lack of goals has been a huge issue and he has got loads of warranted criticism for that, again from me included. Having our main goal threat from this season in a 20 goal striker would hinder every team in the league, on top of our other main goal threat also being out to long term injury and his January signing being injured too. So mitigating circumstances, but 3 in 13 is unacceptable no matter how its dressed up, no team should be so bad in front of goal and Mowbray deserved stick for it.

 

The thing is you are like many not allowing yourself to judge Mowbray without your pre-conceived opinion of him to spill over ahead of any neutrality.

Take Allardyce for example.  manager I think you understandably rated highly, but one that always prioritised results over performances. If he had won a game after making a tactical error with his starting 11, but made a double change at half time which saw us quickly take the lead and in the end win comfortably, would you equally say it was only a "good 20 minutes" against "a bottom 3 team" (technically true although 16th best based on points) and start implying that it was the players who instigated the turnaround and not the manager? No you wouldn't.

We won the game, he deserves at least some acknowledgement. As much as I am onboard with the criticism of the bizarre initial tactics, he fixed it.

So your crediting him for fixing the defence because he has put an extra player in there, reveloutionary. Who would have thought we would concede less with more defenders playing . Why don’t we just put 10 in our box and try not concede the whole season. I do love a slog of a 0-0. Get us playing well throughout the team and he gets credit until then get to….

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Paul Mellelieu said:

We were all glad he left for Newcastle.

Me too but we had a good few years with him.

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Sounds like there was a showdown at halftime. They should have bound and gagged Tony and put him in the kit skip.

I would suspect that Lenihan and Travis first had words with the squad and then Mowbray came into the dressing room had to his say, then we sorted out the subs and how we would play for the second half. 

4 hours ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

You still wanting the same tactics , players shoehorned into positions or are you open to change now ie making mowbray actually earn his wage 

We have to be open to change and play a formation that we to get the win

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Can you please point out when I have asked for the same tactics and specifically for "players shoehorned into positions?" In this very thread, I have been very critical of the bizarre tactics employed in the first half that thankfully were rectified quickly and proactively enough to see us to victory.

Mowbray I would suggest has earnt his wage thus far this season with us being 4th in the table as it stands. Doesn't mean that his management has been perfect.

You have said you would have kept a back 3/5 whilst some people have said we should move back 4-2-3-1 now and press higher up. We got to go back to that formation and play similar way to way we did with Graham. 

2 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Rather a lot being made of Gallagher scoring from a perfect cross against ten men of a bottom 3 team who’d pushed up in the 98th minute desperately seeking an equalizer. Let’s hope he is equally deadly on Saturday.

Play Gallagher and he will score goals. Also put crosses in. Giles's cross is a wonderful cross

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

He has set the team up to have a distinct lack of goals or ideas in recent months , he also didn’t change it to win the games at Millwall or Bristol city , my issue on him is tactics, lack of nous to affect games in our favour and generally his poor managerial record, I couldn’t give a shit about his demeanour albeit he hardly inspires enthusiasm. The fact you talk about this path but it’s the same every year with mowbray so it’s not as if this is a one off . I don’t like the term death spirals in all honesty but he has no plan b and can’t change when things aren’t going our way . Stubborn and moronic at times 

We did change formation on Saturday when we played Bristol City when Dack came on and went 4 at the back and played 4-2-3-1 formation. 

Against Millwall we have more than chances to win that game. 

[garnersfags]

Playing Johnson as false 9, and thinking we have more chance of scoring with Pickering instead of Giles, were 2 of the reasons for our worst 45 of the season. 

He signed Giles, partly based on him having the Championship's most assists, surely to use his sweet left foot. 

Now we may go to 4 at the back, there's no way he will pick Giles over Pickering, which is a crying shame.

I've said before that he should play a back 5, put Giles at wing-back, and play either Khadra or Dolan, not both. 

That ship has probably sailed, but not playing Giles on the left is as unforgivable as playing Johnson up front.

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

2 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

There were no "assumptions" on what was happening between Mowbray and the players. It's all out there

Mowbray gets praise when it's due.

After the appalling run we've had a good 20 minutes against a bottom 3 team after the worst 45 minutes that many supporters of decades standing described as the worst they've seen, he's a long way to go to win supporters' trust again.

Without the points deduction Derby would be 8th in the league.

If you can't admit it when Mowbray deserves credit - regardless of whether he does last night or not - it really detracts from lots of constructive criticism on here. 

[jim mk2]

10 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

Without the points deduction Derby would be 8th in the league.

If you can't admit it when Mowbray deserves credit - regardless of whether he does last night or not - it really detracts from lots of constructive criticism on here. 

Tony will deserve plaudits if we make the playoffs, which would be a big  step forward for the club after the horrors of the past 10 years. I’ve said this twice today. Read my posts 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

13 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Tony will deserve plaudits if we make the playoffs, which would be a big  step forward for the club after the horrors of the past 10 years. I’ve said this twice today. Read my posts 

Yes, I read the "we've had a good 20 mins against a bottom 3 team" and made the point that they wouldn't be a bottom 3 team without a points deduction. So it's not really a valid point to dig Mowbray out with when there are plenty of others. Read my post. 

[aletheia]

 

I’m interested in this “how far is Mowbray responsible” e.g. if we win or if we lose. I think I would argue that Mowbray is not responsible for much really. Bringing in players? I guess –scouts or him? That could be audited I suppose. Shape on the pitch –almost certainly. And on that, I think he hasn’t much of a clue and has been lucky. Ethos and belief? Well. And all the nitty gritty on the pitch and training? Very hands off, just go out and play I would think. And thus I am certainly in the glass half empty with regard Mogga.

…..we have got the amount of points we have as a direct result of his management…..

…..tactics used were critical to our good run, the false 9, the back 3, wing backs, wide forwards etc.……

Well, how responsible is Mowbray? Did he not stumble on this as necessity? That shape at the back certainly shored things up and was a main factor. But the main reason we went so high is BB and his astonishing run of goals and I suspect Mogga couldn’t believe his luck. Yes Mogga is responsible for bringing him in (or at least scouts) but he did nothing for 2 seasons. Imo Mogga does very little to coach on any level. You only have to watch a game to see that there are so many details not attended to. There were so many games early on in the season where this much lauded shape (Buckley false 9 etc.) resulted in the most dire 1^st half performances without us remotely looking like scoring. Only for BB to pop up and score a goal out of nothing and save our bacon. And BB has improved imo from the self-belief gained from Chile.

“Saying it was a brilliant second 45 are wide of the mark” = agreed. It seemed obvious (to me anyway-not hindsight honestly) after watching the appalling 1^st half that we could improve 100% if we just did a few basic, even primitive things. For instance, clearly they are a tiny side so I began to think that our only chance of scoring would be from a header –say a good cross, good corner. And so 3 headers, 3 goals. It was clear also from the 1^st half that we would never outplay them by passing –they gave us a lesson in that. In fact, I was impressed with how Rooney had coached that side. Just also clear that they lacked quality in front of goal (thank goodness, as Exiled says-could easily have been 2-0 down) and as I say tiny at the back. The other basics are energy, effort and pressing –all increased in second half. It was clear that pressing them might yield results because obviously it looked like Derby were under orders on pain of death to play from the back. Soon as Gally/Dolan pressed the atmosphere changed. We simply began to bully them a little. So my overall point is that the way we set up was pathetic and clearly the players’ hearts weren’t in it because it was stupid. All we did second half was some sensible basic things that any reasonable coach could set up and hey presto things improved. However, we were still pretty poor in open play.

One thing that I was pleased with and that was our set up for our attacking corners. I liked the two groupings –one at the near and one at the far. Corners are one thing where we could offer a threat. It’s an easy thing to do. You could be playing shite but a good set piece and you could be back in the game. Have you believed for the past 3 years or so that we are a threat from corners? Great to see Wharton’s goal. I wonder if that is down to the players or coaching? Hmmm.

So:-

Mowbray is a weak, stubborn, Neanderthal manager.

Mowbray has no ability as a coach to bring on/improve players.

Mowbray has no ability to ensure his players do basics (corners/set pieces/penalties/)

Mowbray has no tactical nous

Mowbray has no ability with subs

Mowbray has no ability at ordering game management to players

Mowbray’s man-management is poor

Mowbray by his own admission is not interested in some of the above basics in training

 

Our attainment of 2^nd was down to:

a) BB’s phenomenal goal run and that had nothing to do with Mowbray  

b) a solid defence –stumbled upon by necessity

c) high energy levels and pressing from the front –just basic stuff really

d) a) papering over weaknesses

Of course we are overachieving given finances but I have always believed that with a more inspired manager who can also pay attention to basics, we could be doing better.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I would suspect that Lenihan and Travis first had words with the squad and then Mowbray came into the dressing room had to his say, then we sorted out the subs and how we would play for the second half. 

We have to be open to change and play a formation that we to get the win

You have said you would have kept a back 3/5 whilst some people have said we should move back 4-2-3-1 now and press higher up. We got to go back to that formation and play similar way to way we did with Graham. 

Play Gallagher and he will score goals. Also put crosses in. Giles's cross is a wonderful cross

There is absolutely no way on earth that we should use Gallagher in a similar way to Graham. There is this constant expectation that has been around since he signed that he would take over once Graham was phased out. They could barely be any more different.

Dack thrived playing off Graham because he was an expert with his back to goal, he had a good touch, he was good at knocking the ball down with his head, he was intelligent in working off defenders, Gallagher is as poor as any striker I can remember in a Rovers shirt at those things. Graham was also a penalty box predator who anticipated chances and had the composure to often convert, Gallagher rarely sniffs out chances and when he does he is often clumsy and un coordinated. On the flip side, Graham was ageing and slow whereas Gallagher is a powerful runner especially over long distances and he does have a spring on him. They work in opposite ways.

Gallagher was good last night, but lets not make conclusions about a player he clearly is not, either in style or in quality. He has proven consistently that he is a very limited footballer, should he start centrally at the weekend? Yes, but is he the answer as a central target man in general? Not in a million years.

"He will score goals" whilst true literally is not something he will do with any consistent regularity, or if he does, it will be the first time in his career.

2 hours ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

So your crediting him for fixing the defence because he has put an extra player in there, reveloutionary. Who would have thought we would concede less with more defenders playing . Why don’t we just put 10 in our box and try not concede the whole season. I do love a slog of a 0-0. Get us playing well throughout the team and he gets credit until then get to….

You could basically say that about any tactical tweak ever. One extra player in x position, revolutionary.

[simongarnerisgod]

i pretty much agree with all of the above

mowbray`s time here has been been very much like the rest of his management career,barring his first club hibs,where he had them  challenging rangers and celtic,it`s been one good season then a gradual decline resulting in the sack,only swag and venky`s disinterest/cluelessness has kept him here, and the only way were are getting shut is if he himself decides to leave,i don`t think he`d get sacked if he took us into the bottom division tbh