Jon Dahl Tomasson - Sweden coach

[Hasta]

I was going to reply to @booth on the Norwich thread but I moved it here as it’s a bit of a long rant. However it follows on from another @boothpost I disagree with. Some people appear to be blind to the situation bothering a lot of fans atm.

Its not our results or our league position that is bothering people. It’s not our goal scoring ability, or our defensive capabilities. All of these seem to be functioning fine under JDT.

Its solely his refusing to tell the players when under pressure to get the ball forward and get rid of the danger. We said at the start of the season it was frustrating and was costing us, and I joked “imagine if we were still doing it and it cost us at Burnley”. And yet we did, and then did it again the next game.

I’m watching England V France on Saturday night, and I’m thinking how is it in a World Cup quarter final both of these fancied teams are happy to let the defenders clear it long when under pressure, and yet our average championship players are instructed to play out from dangerous positions. 
 

It has clearly cost us points in games, and I don’t believe that we have seen any benefit. We are not talking about the inability to have a plan B and go more direct. That is a different argument. 
 

Let’s analyse where the game was lost Saturday. You can view the Preston Highlights here - Preston highlights - uncomfortable viewing

The first goal is a bad pass. That’s up near the half way line and is trying to get us on the front foot so I’d put that down as poor play but also as just a disappointing goal to concede.

However the second highlight is a scramble in the first half. I’ve looked back on the full replay and the chance starts (27:30) from Mola taking a throw near our own corner flag. A couple of touches and it’s played back to him under pressure. They have quite a lot of bodies around that area (because we’ve been sussed) and yet instead of clearing it down the line he tries to play a delicate 5 years pass and gets caught (which is where the highlight starts). Ball comes in and a bit of a scramble. We survive. Phew. It then comes to Morton in our own box who tries a cushioned 5 years pass to Sammie in his own area and gives it away again. FFS. What is the point of that ball? Same shit every game.

Anyway we ended the first half stronger and I thought have a go second half. As we know Kaminsky immediately gets caught in possession not hoofing it clear but luckily gets a goal kick. Inexplicably (to us mere fans), he gives it to Travis surrounded by 3 men. Once he receives it and realises he’s closed down he has two options to me. There’s a ball out to Carter at RB or just clear it and bollock Kaminsky for playing him into trouble. However he’s been told to play it short so inexplicably he tries a little shitty ball to Morton and 5 seconds later it’s a goal. Game over from that point.

Interestingly watch Carter’s reaction at RB from when Travis gives the ball away. He strolls back. Had he sprinted he probably would have got to Evans before the ball was pulled back. He’s not busting a gut for ‘the project’.

If this was a one off fine, but you could pick highlights from Burnley, Coventry, Wigan, Luton and Sheff United of us doing the same thing.  I’m not saying he’s a worse manager overall. He’s clearly not. But I honestly believe Mowbray, Ince, Coyle and Kean would all surely have said “let’s try something different “ if a small part of their gameplan was repeatedly costing us goals and points (whilst also regularly boosting the opposition’s XG for all you stat kids out there). So stubborn and so avoidable.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Hasta

[Sweaty Gussets]

1 hour ago, booth said:

He was a stubborn old goat who neglected the defence, favoured possession over 3 points, kept playing strikers on the wing, midfielders up front, and kept signing them to do so too. That stubborn that he threw away a fantastic opportunity for promotion because of his documented belief that we don't play with centre forwards, and that Ben Brereton would continue to stay fit and score in the second half of the season. Even though he knew he was due international duty and someone needed to fill his shoes.

I can say that confidently, from five years of watching his teams continually fail, he was as pragmatic as a pair of glass socks.

Even though I'm disappointed with JDT he's got a long way to go before we can label him as stubborn, foolish and illogical as Tony Mowbray.

I gave you examples of when Mogga was pragmatic and changed things. There are others. That isn't to stay he wasn't stubborn at other times as he clearly was. 

We are now in mini-crisis territory for JDT, we keep giving goals away and losing games (heavily) because he insists on playing out from the back. We'll now see how stubborn he is...

[Sweaty Gussets]

45 minutes ago, Hasta said:

But I honestly believe Mowbray, Ince, Coyle and Kean would all surely have said “let’s try something different “ if a small part of their gameplan was repeatedly costing us goals and points (whilst also regularly boosting the opposition’s XG for all you stat kids out there). So stubborn and so avoidable.

Exactly my point too. Not only that but he is also blaming his own tactical failings on the players and then commiserating with the fans and saying he feels sorry for us, as if to say 'aren't those players shite, letting me and the fans down'. It's weird behaviour. Or maybe he's making the point they aren't good enough to play how he wants but he's going to continue playing that way to emphasis the point he needs new players  (which would be next-level stubborn)

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sweaty Gussets

[tomphil]

Well hes brought in Brittain, Hyam, Morton, Mola to name a few who are some of the biggest strugglers with it so no getting around the fact it lies at his door.

[roversfan99]

I do wonder if this playing out from the back bollocks is instructed or at least encouraged above Tomasson, we have heard the shite about adding value so maybe it is a flawed part of the new structure we have.

[arbitro]

https://www.rovers.co.uk/club/job-vacancies/

I couldn't find an appropriate thread for this but it's for current vacancies at Rovers. Amongst them is one for a first team physiotherapist and the closing date is December 28th. Andy Procter was doing this role - does anybody know who has left to create this role?

Unless it a new appointment just to look after Callum Brittle 😂😂.

[BlackburnEnd75]

5 hours ago, booth said:

He was a stubborn old goat who neglected the defence, favoured possession over 3 points, kept playing strikers on the wing, midfielders up front, and kept signing them to do so too. That stubborn that he threw away a fantastic opportunity for promotion because of his documented belief that we don't play with centre forwards, and that Ben Brereton would continue to stay fit and score in the second half of the season. Even though he knew he was due international duty and someone needed to fill his shoes.

I can say that confidently, from five years of watching his teams continually fail, he was as pragmatic as a pair of glass socks.

Even though I'm disappointed with JDT he's got a long way to go before we can label him as stubborn, foolish and illogical as Tony Mowbray.

100%

[Nuttall is lost]

I really like JDT as a person.  Think he is calm, positive, idealistic.

 

However I got annoyed at this guff that passing it around at the back would increase the value and sale price of players.  Is he actually saying he is trying to cheat passing accuracy stats to artificially over inflate players value?

Seriously, what good is passing it pointlessly around at the back to end up mid table no hopers?   Are scouts really that easily fooled that they ignore their own eyes and go straight for the stats??

[K-Hod]

7 minutes ago, Nuttall is lost said:

I really like JDT as a person.  Think he is calm, positive, idealistic.

 

However I got annoyed at this guff that passing it around at the back would increase the value and sale price of players.  Is he actually saying he is trying to cheat passing accuracy stats to artificially over inflate players value?

Seriously, what good is passing it pointlessly around at the back to end up mid table no hopers?   Are scouts really that easily fooled that they ignore their own eyes and go straight for the stats??

What I don’t get on the adding value thing, is that it is brought up by the club far more often than talk of winning matches. So presumably, they think it’s more important…. What a way to run a club…

[tomphil]

Like i said earlier players like Ayala. Hyam, Brittain, Travis etc etc are struggling with it and how many games do these guys have under their belts ?

They aren't kids and it isn't a development squad it seems like its been forced on them.

If it's a new blueprint at the club it should be being done from the under 18s upwards first you can't experiment at first team level. 

[JHRover]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I do wonder if this playing out from the back bollocks is instructed or at least encouraged above Tomasson, we have heard the shite about adding value so maybe it is a flawed part of the new structure we have.

You've hit the nail on the head there I think.

There's a reason why Mowbray and now JDT persist with talk about value, kids and this passing around lark.

They are expected to deliver this - it is part of their remit because someone has decided that this is the way to go to maximise development/player value. 

 

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

What I don’t get on the adding value thing, is that it is brought up by the club far more often than talk of winning matches. So presumably, they think it’s more important…. What a way to run a club…

I think it is all just a way to get messages back to the money men in India every now and again.

If those writing the cheques each month are satisfied that value is being generated in the players and that if we don't get promoted it isn't too much of a problem because the value of the squad is increasing then it vindicates positions and spending, meaning they get another few years in place to keep going.

It's the never ending project which keeps people like Pasha and Waggott well renumerated for years on end whilst the project actually achieves nothing. Because we don't have what it takes nor the determination to get promoted (our transfer business last January and this will show that) but also because when we do finally get value into players we neglect their contracts and they walk for little/nothing. 

[K-Hod]

If anyone that understands a thing about football watches us, the only thing having value added to it lately has been our goals against column…

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

59 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

If anyone that understands a thing about football watches us, the only thing having value added to it lately has been our goals against column…

Exactly - for instance how is Kaminski’s value rising when he’s constantly picking the ball out of the back of the net ?

[DE.]

Travis' value must be going in a negative direction as well - not to mention Buckley and Dack. 

[booth]

22 hours ago, Hasta said:

I was going to reply to @booth on the Norwich thread but I moved it here as it’s a bit of a long rant. However it follows on from another @boothpost I disagree with. Some people appear to be blind to the situation bothering a lot of fans atm.

Its not our results or our league position that is bothering people. It’s not our goal scoring ability, or our defensive capabilities. All of these seem to be functioning fine under JDT.

Its solely his refusing to tell the players when under pressure to get the ball forward and get rid of the danger. We said at the start of the season it was frustrating and was costing us, and I joked “imagine if we were still doing it and it cost us at Burnley”. And yet we did, and then did it again the next game.

I’m watching England V France on Saturday night, and I’m thinking how is it in a World Cup quarter final both of these fancied teams are happy to let the defenders clear it long when under pressure, and yet our average championship players are instructed to play out from dangerous positions. 
 

It has clearly cost us points in games, and I don’t believe that we have seen any benefit. We are not talking about the inability to have a plan B and go more direct. That is a different argument. 
 

Let’s analyse where the game was lost Saturday. You can view the Preston Highlights here - Preston highlights - uncomfortable viewing

The first goal is a bad pass. That’s up near the half way line and is trying to get us on the front foot so I’d put that down as poor play but also as just a disappointing goal to concede.

However the second highlight is a scramble in the first half. I’ve looked back on the full replay and the chance starts (27:30) from Mola taking a throw near our own corner flag. A couple of touches and it’s played back to him under pressure. They have quite a lot of bodies around that area (because we’ve been sussed) and yet instead of clearing it down the line he tries to play a delicate 5 years pass and gets caught (which is where the highlight starts). Ball comes in and a bit of a scramble. We survive. Phew. It then comes to Morton in our own box who tries a cushioned 5 years pass to Sammie in his own area and gives it away again. FFS. What is the point of that ball? Same shit every game.

Anyway we ended the first half stronger and I thought have a go second half. As we know Kaminsky immediately gets caught in possession not hoofing it clear but luckily gets a goal kick. Inexplicably (to us mere fans), he gives it to Travis surrounded by 3 men. Once he receives it and realises he’s closed down he has two options to me. There’s a ball out to Carter at RB or just clear it and bollock Kaminsky for playing him into trouble. However he’s been told to play it short so inexplicably he tries a little shitty ball to Morton and 5 seconds later it’s a goal. Game over from that point.

Interestingly watch Carter’s reaction at RB from when Travis gives the ball away. He strolls back. Had he sprinted he probably would have got to Evans before the ball was pulled back. He’s not busting a gut for ‘the project’.

If this was a one off fine, but you could pick highlights from Burnley, Coventry, Wigan, Luton and Sheff United of us doing the same thing.  I’m not saying he’s a worse manager overall. He’s clearly not. But I honestly believe Mowbray, Ince, Coyle and Kean would all surely have said “let’s try something different “ if a small part of their gameplan was repeatedly costing us goals and points (whilst also regularly boosting the opposition’s XG for all you stat kids out there). So stubborn and so avoidable.

On present evidence JDT and Mowbray are stubborn to the point of foolishness but Mowbray had a lot longer to prove himself correct, and didn't.

Kean shouldn't be in the same conversation. Took down the club almost single handed.

[booth]

21 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I do wonder if this playing out from the back bollocks is instructed or at least encouraged above Tomasson, we have heard the shite about adding value so maybe it is a flawed part of the new structure we have.

Sorry to mention his name again, but when Kean originally came in he promised the owners better football, and his scumbag agent kept banging on about adding value to the squad. I imagine that proviso has never changed.

And I don't believe for one minute that JDT signed George Hirst. That was clearly a Venkys order of, find an unpolished gem to develop into a £15m player. Very disappointing and worrying if George Hirst is Gregg Broughtons idea of an unpolished gem.

[Upside Down]

4 hours ago, booth said:

On present evidence JDT and Mowbray are stubborn to the point of foolishness but Mowbray had a lot longer to prove himself correct, and didn't.

Kean shouldn't be in the same conversation. Took down the club almost single handed.

No. Kean should never in a million years be mentioned in the same sentence as a real football manager. 

[rigger]

15 hours ago, booth said:

Sorry to mention his name again, but when Kean originally came in he promised the owners better football, and his scumbag agent kept banging on about adding value to the squad. I imagine that proviso has never changed.

And I don't believe for one minute that JDT signed George Hirst. That was clearly a Venkys order of, find an unpolished gem to develop into a £15m player. Very disappointing and worrying if George Hirst is Gregg Broughtons idea of an unpolished gem.

I thought Hirst was a loan ?

[47er]

2 hours ago, rigger said:

I thought Hirst was a loan ?

with an option to buy?

[rigger]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

with an option to buy?

With the emphasis being on option. We can just send him back. From what I have seen, that would be the best option for the Rovers. Hirst may turn out to be a decent player in the future, but the Rovers need players to win games now, not in the future.

[47er]

7 minutes ago, rigger said:

With the emphasis being on option. We can just send him back. From what I have seen, that would be the best option for the Rovers. Hirst may turn out to be a decent player in the future, but the Rovers need players to win games now, not in the future.

Quite agree, just pointing out that  he wasn't just a loan. We apparently even agreed the fee of £5M.

Gallacher all over again except at least we have an opt-out.

Edited December 16, 2022 by 47er

[Sweaty Gussets]

6 minutes ago, rigger said:

With the emphasis being on option. We can just send him back. From what I have seen, that would be the best option for the Rovers. Hirst may turn out to be a decent player in the future, but the Rovers need players to win games now, not in the future.

They have got players to win games now - BBD, Dack, SG. 

They also need to build for the future. Hopefully Hirst will get a chance to prove if he is good enough before the end of the season. That means a consistent run in the team. 

[booth]

5 hours ago, rigger said:

I thought Hirst was a loan ?

Yes, so we can send him back.

The point I was making is that if that's Broughton's idea of a rough diamond, I worry for the future.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

They have got players to win games now - BBD, Dack, SG. 

They also need to build for the future. Hopefully Hirst will get a chance to prove if he is good enough before the end of the season. That means a consistent run in the team. 

Have you seen Hirst play. He is shit scared of going in for a challenge for some reason. I have never before seen a player who pulls out of as many tackles.