Jon Dahl Tomasson - Sweden coach

[Wheelton Blue]

FFS, 3 summer windows my arse.

Clubs who mean business grab the bull by the horns, and go for it.

But not us; we'll still be pissing about when the next man comes in.

[DE.]

That's a lot of words to basically say nothing of substance. 

[arbitro]

17 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

It's worrying that 2 successive managers are coming out with exactly the same stuff. I always thought Mowbray was just buying time for himself. Clearly not. He was just following orders and implementing the owners 'vision'.

I honestly don't think the owners have or have ever had a vision. Mowbray had the easiest five years of his life here under very little pressure and pretty much full autonomy of the playing side. Tomasson, from his interview wants to buy himself time very much like Mowbray with talk of projects and a need for several transfer windows. I think this has what has/had been sold to the owners albeit Broughton is now a Director of Football and Mowbray didn't have that and the owners bought it. They have given themselves a degree of job security in the most insecure profession.

[Mattyblue]

It could literally have been a TM quote.

It’s pretty obvious that this is not a normal football club in which the bee all and end all is getting the best possible players on the pitch attempting to get the best possible results. Indeed, that is the whole point of professional sport… BRFC is going down a different path; the question, as always, is why?

[J*B]

I think it’s exactly what is needed and is realistic. I thought that when Mowbray was saying it, I just didn’t believe he was capable of delivering it.

I’ve believed since he was appointed the odd decisions and trials have been tests to work out which players are capable and which aren’t. They (the management) aren’t passionate about the town, it’s people or Blackburn Rovers like the fans are. They’re interested in ‘the project’. Once you accept that it’s a lot easier. 

[Mattyblue]

What professional football club of any ambition doesn’t prioritise results?

By publicly stating that the club only exists to develop players and not for a hard headed quest for three points (as it’s those points that drives the lot; interest, revenue, crowds, sponsorship, better players, better coaches) in this bloody tough league it’s a recipe for mediocrity, and at best, treading water, at worst a slip back to the third division.

£430 to £530 for a season ticket (some of the most expensive in the league) to watch a development club? 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mattyblue

[J*B]

48 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

What professional football club of any ambition doesn’t prioritise results?

By publicly stating that the club only exists to develop players and not for a hard headed quest for three points (as it’s those points that drives the lot; interest, revenue, crowds, sponsorship, better players, better coaches) and it’s a recipe for mediocrity, and at best, treading water.

£430 to £530 for a season ticket (some of the most expensive in the league) to watch a development club? 

Clubs that get out this league in recent history have one thing: money. Either through player development and trading (Brentford), Parachute Payments (Burnley) or huge city-based income (Leeds). 

Our big chance was when we had just been relegated but the people running and managing the club were totally incompetent. Waggott is incapable (he would say it is impossible) of revolutionising income at a club like Rovers. Therefore the only proven model is player trading - develop players, sell them, have a recruitment system in place capable of replacing them. 

That is the reason why suddenly the academy is the future: because we need to make profit from the players it develops in order to fund transfers. Phillips, Batty, Wharton, Leonard, they’ve thrown all the eggs in that basket. 

FFP means clubs in our position cannot possibly spend their way out of it however rich the owners are. 

[arbitro]

Professional football is all about results. That determines pretty much everything that success is measured by. Increased attendances, commercial revenue streams, merchandise and many other things. This project talk and development over results nonsense just completely turns me off and no doubt many others. I want promotion this season not some mealy mouthed excuses about prioritising one thing over another. My priority is to see Rovers win every game.

[Mattyblue]

I’ve no issue with utilising the academy, has to be the way. 

That doesn’t mean that we need to spend our time going down ‘metricated’ rabbit holes and hearing nonsense like ‘playing from the back adds value’, ‘performances over results’ etc. This is a relentless, highly professional division, not development/youth football. As noble as these aims are, the reality of this level of football will hit you in the face.

Oh and we rarely see profits from players as these owners refuse to sell them (Armstrong aside), so the whole thing is incoherent. The best laid plans, ‘models’ derailed by the whims of unpredictable owners- so comparisons to other clubs are moot.

We’ve had years of this, with fans projecting what they think is/should be happening, variations on a theme of; ‘trading club’, ‘slow builds’, ‘develop, sell, re-invest’ over actual reality.
 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mattyblue

[arbitro]

6 minutes ago, J*B said:

Clubs that get out this league in recent history have one thing: money. Either through player development and trading (Brentford), Parachute Payments (Burnley) or huge city-based income (Leeds). 

Our big chance was when we had just been relegated but the people running and managing the club were totally incompetent. Waggott is incapable (he would say it is impossible) of revolutionising incoming at a club like Rovers. Therefore the only proven model is player trading - develop players, sell them, have a recruitment system in place capable of replacing them. 

That is the reason why suddenly the academy is the future: because we need to make profit from the players it develops in order to fund transfers. Phillips, Batty, Wharton, Leonard, they’ve thrown all the eggs in that basket. 

FFP means clubs in our position cannot possibly spend their way out of it however rich the owners are. 

Off the top of my head Huddersfield, Forest and Sheffield United were promoted and didn't have parachute payments nor  huge income streams. They had good managers who set up their teams to get results in a way suited to the players they had. Crewe were a development club who are now languishing in League Two.

How many promoted clubs sell their best players (young or older) and get promoted?

[Mashed Potatoes]

15 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Off the top of my head Huddersfield, Forest and Sheffield United were promoted and didn't have parachute payments nor  huge income streams. They had good managers who set up their teams to get results in a way suited to the players they had. Crewe were a development club who are now languishing in League Two.

How many promoted clubs sell their best players (young or older) and get promoted?

To be fair, Brentford had sold the likes of Watkins, Benrahma, Tarkowski prior to promotion.

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

To be fair, Brentford had sold the likes of Watkins, Benrahma, Tarkowski prior to promotion.

The exception to the rule.

How many more?

[Sweaty Gussets]

57 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I honestly don't think the owners have or have ever had a vision. Mowbray had the easiest five years of his life here under very little pressure and pretty much full autonomy of the playing side. Tomasson, from his interview wants to buy himself time very much like Mowbray with talk of projects and a need for several transfer windows. I think this has what has/had been sold to the owners albeit Broughton is now a Director of Football and Mowbray didn't have that and the owners bought it. They have given themselves a degree of job security in the most insecure profession.

That's why 'vision' was in inverted commas. Their 'vision' is sustainable PL football, GB has repeated it often enough since he arrived.  I have the same 'vision' for Rovers, doesn't mean I'm going to achieve it. 'Visions' and ambitions are easy to tell the world about. 

My point really was how depressingly familiar JDT's comments are. I also thought Mowbray was unilaterally buying time, now I don't think that. 

I think we've just got the same 'vision' but just different personnel. Mowbray didn't work, they gave him 5 years, he couldn't deliver. Not to worry, on to the next guy, same 'vision' but we'll get a DoF in to help realise it. Unless it goes disastrously wrong JDT will get a few years to see if he can get us in the Prem.

Not wonder JDT keeps calling it a 'lovely project'. No pressure on results for a season or two, just time to build his project. Exactly the reason Mogga would have signed that new contract in a heartbeat if he'd been offered it. Manager of BRFC is one of the best jobs in football. 

[Mattyblue]

Brentford’s ‘model’ allows for that. They actually develop, sell, re-invest.

 

[DE.]

In the 10 years we've been relegated from the Prem we haven't even managed a top six finish in this league once. That tells you all you need to know about the "vision" of those running the club. 

[Sweaty Gussets]

9 minutes ago, DE. said:

In the 10 years we've been relegated from the Prem we haven't even managed a top six finish in this league once. That tells you all you need to know about the "vision" of those running the club. 

It tells you all you need to know about the ability of those running the club to achieve their ambitions. 

[tomphil]

Any manager who comes out with performances over results and individual player development over building a top 6 team ought to be fired on the spot.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, J*B said:

Clubs that get out this league in recent history have one thing: money. Either through player development and trading (Brentford), Parachute Payments (Burnley) or huge city-based income (Leeds). 

Our big chance was when we had just been relegated but the people running and managing the club were totally incompetent. Waggott is incapable (he would say it is impossible) of revolutionising income at a club like Rovers. Therefore the only proven model is player trading - develop players, sell them, have a recruitment system in place capable of replacing them. 

That is the reason why suddenly the academy is the future: because we need to make profit from the players it develops in order to fund transfers. Phillips, Batty, Wharton, Leonard, they’ve thrown all the eggs in that basket. 

FFP means clubs in our position cannot possibly spend their way out of it however rich the owners are. 

Our owners have intervened twice in the last year to prevent us profiting on players and making over £10m in favour of letting said players leave for free. Not the decisions of owners invested in a project.

The people underneath will talk about projects and visions as they are typical soundbites which can help to buy time with supporters.

Edited December 24, 2022 by roversfan99

[arbitro]

14 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Any manager who comes out with performances over results and individual player development over building a top 6 team ought to be fired on the spot.

At the moment our two brightest young players (Adam Wharton and Ash Phillips) have started around half a dozen league games this season and I don't think either have finished many. Compare that to Tyler Morton who has started pretty much every game and isn't our player. Surely if this player development was the priority Wharton would be ahead of Morton as I see two very similar players in respect of ability and potential. And where are our other young assets? Many have been bit part players not given an opportunity to shine or put in the shop window. 

I really think Tomasson is trying to buy himself time by regurgitating this nonsense. Development over results - do me a favour. Football is really about the here and now.

[Mattyblue]

I’m not sure he is trying to buy himself time. It really does seem the way that the club wants to go.

 

[tomphil]

12 minutes ago, arbitro said:

At the moment our two brightest young players (Adam Wharton and Ash Phillips) have started around half a dozen league games this season and I don't think either have finished many. Compare that to Tyler Morton who has started pretty much every game and isn't our player. Surely if this player development was the priority Wharton would be ahead of Morton as I see two very similar players in respect of ability and potential. And where are our other young assets? Many have been bit part players not given an opportunity to shine or put in the shop window. 

I really think Tomasson is trying to buy himself time by regurgitating this nonsense. Development over results - do me a favour. Football is really about the here and now.

When we finished 8th last season and spent about a 3rd of it in the top 6 then the only sane thing to do is prioritise building on that.  Especially when there is a bit of a budget to help replace those who left and we have largely still retained the best players.

It seems though they just want to hit the rest button and ignore that in favour of setting our stall out for more years of water treading. I keep hearing JDT is an ambitious young manager ?   Well establishing our set up in the top 6 in the Championship or getting to the play offs is a good feather in his cap. promotion would be a great look on the CV.

So why kick the can down the road when there is an opportunity to flick it up and volley it straight into the bin.

[Sweaty Gussets]

25 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Our owners have intervened twice in the last year to prevent us profiting on players and making over £10m in favour of letting said players leave for free. Not the decisions of owners invested in a project.

That makes no sense. They intervened because they thought keeping Rothwell gave them the best chance of promotion. They'll keep BBD this Jan, one presumes, for the same reason. The project is Prem football. 

And it was Mowbray's decision not to strengthen last Jan. He turned up his nose at Prem strikers. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sweaty Gussets

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

That makes no sense. They intervened because they thought keeping Rothwell gave them the best chance of promotion. They'll keep BBD this Jan, one presumes, for the same reason. The project is Prem football. 

And it was Mowbray's decision not to strengthen last Jan. He turned up his nose at Prem strikers. 

Is Prem football a project? It is obviously the objective but the project is mentioned every week by Tomasson, player development, building them up, using the academy and the key to that is getting highly valuable assets.

People fixate on individuals beneath Venkys as the reason why things go wrong, obviously they aren't blameless but they are never the main problem. Mowbray turned down young Prem strikers on loan but that is beside the point, if the project is about player development and selling on assets, something that all of Tomasson, Broughton and Mowbray have mentioned ad nauseum in press conferences so it is a fair assumption, then the owners preventing sales to allow that continued trading just undermines everything. With less resources than recently relegated teams, we have to be clever with what we have and taking such risks with valuable players with little time on their deals is the opposite of that. I have no faith in the project under Tomasson and Broughton not because of them as individuals, but because history tells us that under Venkys it won't happen.

[Leonard Venkhater]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

In the 10 years we've been relegated from the Prem we haven't even managed a top six finish in this league once. That tells you all you need to know about the "vision" of those running the club. 

And for those, who try to re-write history, compare that to the late 70's and 80's. 

 

[Sweaty Gussets]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Is Prem football a project? It is obviously the objective but the project is mentioned every week by Tomasson, player development, building them up, using the academy and the key to that is getting highly valuable assets.

People fixate on individuals beneath Venkys as the reason why things go wrong, obviously they aren't blameless but they are never the main problem. Mowbray turned down young Prem strikers on loan but that is beside the point, if the project is about player development and selling on assets, something that all of Tomasson, Broughton and Mowbray have mentioned ad nauseum in press conferences so it is a fair assumption, then the owners preventing sales to allow that continued trading just undermines everything. With less resources than recently relegated teams, we have to be clever with what we have and taking such risks with valuable players with little time on their deals is the opposite of that. I have no faith in the project under Tomasson and Broughton not because of them as individuals, but because history tells us that under Venkys it won't happen.

You don't sell your best players when you're 2nd in the league at the halfway point, project or no project. Last season fell apart because Mowbray refused to sign a striker in Jan and so when BBD's purple patch ended we were fucked. It was all on Mowbray.