Jon Dahl Tomasson - Sweden coach

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, RV Blue said:

What do you get for winning the no parachute payment trophy?

You end up in Colditz, Douglas...

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, davulsukur said:

Taking those 2 games doesn't show any gradual improvement, especially as it was followed up with another woeful performance against Sunderland. 

It's just the same as it has been all season, good wins followed by dreadful performances.

As we're now at 4 losses in 5 , it suggests we are gradually getting worse.

 

Yes you are correct to say we have good wins then some dreadful performances but most teams in the league are like this. 2 examples PNE(who last 2 performances have been dreadful from what I am told) and Watford who were poor from reports yesterday. The championship is unpredictable for most teams and why it so enjoyable to watch 

2 hours ago, rigger said:

I don't think many people want to get rid of JDT. What I think most people want, is for JDT to get the best out of the players he has got. At the moment he is not doing that. For me being, ONE of the best teams who don't get parachute payments, is not a high enough target. For me to start buying tickets regularly again, we will need to finish in the play-offs. If we don't finish in the play-offs I won't be buying a season ticket next season. 

Despite us being 3rd you think he is isn't get the best out of these players so what changes to the starting 11 and formation would you like to see to get the best out of the players for rest of the season? 

Edited December 27, 2022 by chaddyrovers

[tomphil]

10 hours ago, J*B said:

I think you’re right. Venkys have seen the 200M on offer for promotion to the Premier League and instead prioritised selling Ash Phillips for 15M in 2 years.

Now come on who would be surprised at that ?

Book value.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, RV Blue said:

What do you get for winning the no parachute payment trophy?

Excuses.

[rigger]

38 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes you are correct to say we have good wins then some dreadful performances but most teams in the league are like this. 2 examples PNE(who last 2 performances have been dreadful from what I am told) and Watford who were poor from reports yesterday. The championship is unpredictable for most teams and why it so enjoyable to watch 

Despite us being 3rd you think he is isn't get the best out of these players so what changes to the starting 11 and formation would you like to see to get the best out of the players for rest of the season? 

A change of system, no passing about at the back, 3 central midfield players, Adam Wharton plays every game, until he asks not to because he is knackered. Forwards play through the middle, not on the wings. All this could be done with the players we already have. It might not get us into the play-offs, but I suggest that if we stay as we are , we will just about make mid-table. That is not good enough for my money.

[Gav]

1 hour ago, superniko said:

This parachute payment nonsense is just a layer mash potato brain has added in now that it’s clear performances are dire to back up his all out opinion. 
I think there are 5 clubs in receipt of parachute payments

That gap is currently 4 points, so when it inevitably happens in the next few weeks I look forward to you humbly admitting that the football is terrible, a journey is not needed in this league, and your parachute payments spiel has absolutely no relation to why we performed so awful against Preston or Reading or Luton.

I don’t think anyone is using parachute payments as an excuse for poor performances. Changing managers, a new style of play, meddling owners and  losing some good players at this level account for that.

But when push comes to shove, the 3 sides that USUALLY go up are awash with Premiership money, the facts are very clear in that regard. You get nothing for losing in the playoffs or finishing 7th, but doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the ambition.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Gav

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, rigger said:

A change of system, no passing about at the back, 3 central midfield players, Adam Wharton plays every game, until he asks not to because he is knackered. Forwards play through the middle, not on the wings. All this could be done with the players we already have. It might not get us into the play-offs, but I suggest that if we stay as we are , we will just about make mid-table. That is not good enough for my money.

thanks for the reply firstly rigger, few questions tho

1, so what system would you play? 5-3-2 or 4-3-3? 

2, Gallagher is playing through the middle and BBD is left side attacking forward player or would you play up front? 

3, what would your starting 11 be then?

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

Playing with Hirst is like playing with ten men, he’s had four months now and he’s still absolutely useless. Send him back.

All this talk of a ‘project’ and just batting away another limp performance where we have loads of the ball, but never really do anything with it bar the goal, it’s awful.

If we aren’t even bothered about getting promotion, but we are more bothered about a ‘project’ or adding value to players, you start to wonder, what’s the point?

I said that When Gary Bowyer was in charge.

Since then we've had one finish of 8th place and that was almost by default, nobody inside or outside the club actually made it sound anything other than a bonus.

Again i'll go back to the commentators yesterday being surprised by the lack of urgency displayed by both teams for about 85 mins of that game. Until Tony did what he often did here and threw all his cards on the table just for the sake of it.

[superniko]

43 minutes ago, Gav said:

I don’t think anyone is using parachute payments as an excuse for poor performances. Changing managers, a new style of play, meddling owners and  losing some good players at this level account for that.

But when push comes to shove, the 3 sides that USUALLY go up are awash with Premiership money, the facts are very clear in that regard. You get nothing for losing in the playoffs or finishing 7th, but doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be the ambition.

Relegated teams and their parachute years performance 

2016/17

Hull finished 18th, 13th, 24th (relegated to L1)
Boro finished 5th, 7th, 17th
Sunderland finished 24th (relegated to L1), 5th, 8th in league 1

2017/18

Swansea 10th, 6th, 4th (losing in playoffs)
Stoke 16th, 15th, 14th 
WBA 4th, 2nd and promoted

2018/19

Cardiff 5th, 8th, 18th 
Fulham 4th and promoted 
Huddersfield 18th, 20th, 3rd (losing in playoffs)

2019/20

Bournemouth, Norwich, Watford all went up within 2 years 

2020/21

Fulham promoted 
WBA 10th
Sheff Utd 15th

 

So in conclusion, over the last 5 years only 6 times a team that were relegated went up within their 3 years of their relegation (and 3 of those were in the same year which is probably where this narrative is coming from)

Brighton, Brentford, Huddersfield, Wolves, Sheff Utd, Leeds, Forest, Cardiff, Fulham have all gone up in that period without parachute payments.

Not sure about your clear facts 

Edited December 27, 2022 by superniko

[Mashed Potatoes]

47 minutes ago, superniko said:

Relegated teams and their parachute years performance 

2016/17

Hull finished 18th, 13th, 24th (relegated to L1)
Boro finished 5th, 7th, 17th
Sunderland finished 24th (relegated to L1), 5th, 8th in league 1

2017/18

Swansea 10th, 6th, 4th (losing in playoffs)
Stoke 16th, 15th, 14th 
WBA 4th, 2nd and promoted

2018/19

Cardiff 5th, 8th, 18th 
Fulham 4th and promoted 
Huddersfield 18th, 20th, 3rd (losing in playoffs)

2019/20

Bournemouth, Norwich, Watford all went up within 2 years 

2020/21

Fulham promoted 
WBA 10th
Sheff Utd 15th

 

So in conclusion, over the last 5 years only 6 times a team that were relegated went up within their 3 years of their relegation (and 3 of those were in the same year which is probably where this narrative is coming from)

Brighton, Brentford, Huddersfield, Wolves, Sheff Utd, Leeds, Forest, Cardiff, Fulham have all gone up in that period without parachute payments.

Not sure about your clear facts 

In each of the last 4 seasons 2 of the promotion places have gone to parachute payment clubs - from a pool of 5 or 6 clubs - whilst the other 18/19 clubs without parachute payments have only got 1 promotion spot. That indicates the scale of the advantage given by parachute payments. The difference is becoming more pronounced as in the last 2 seasons the parachute payment clubs have taken both the automatic places and it is looking likely that will happen again this season.  Additionally the sums received are increasing way beyond the ability of championship clubs to boost their revenue - in 2019 a club in its first season down from the Premier League was getting just under £43m ; this season that is now £55m.

[tomphil]

If a club came down and said we don't need the parachute money we have enough of our own so they gave it to Blackburn Rovers what do we think would change ?

Would they suddenly change tack and say yes lets go for it for the next couple of years ?  Would they say we are on a new journey and spew it on drones and back room staff ?

Or would it just magically disappear into running costs whilst the owners still shove minus 20 million per season through the books ?

The problem here isn't a lack of parachute money it's far deeper than that.

[Gav]

4 hours ago, superniko said:

Not sure about your clear facts 

Nobody mentioned performance, but I did mention promotion.

You need money to get out of this league as the promoted teams clearly shows below, if you think we can compete right now with the finances of the teams below, good luck to you.

Last season Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest (Spent £20+)

2020/21 promoted sides were - Norwich, Watford and Brentford (massive turnover, spent millions)

2019/20 promoted sides were - Leeds (Bankrolled by San Fran 49ers), West Brom and Fulham

2018/19 - promoted sides - Norwich, Sheff Utd (Exception to the rule) Aston Villa.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Gav

[RoverInverness]

A few points:

1. Of course V’s want promotion, silly to suggest otherwise and no point even debating that. However, they have absolutely no real idea whatsoever on how to achieve it. They do appear to have learned that some things will definitely not help with promotion - four managers in a year, having a fire sale of players, managers being at war with the fan base, appointing a manager because Balaji owes his agent a favour or allowing an agent to buy your players. Obvious stupidity to anyone here, but it took them a decade to learn all that.

2. Venky’s don’t watch games, follow results or even know what other clubs might be considered our local rivals. Therefore, as fucking woeful as some performances under JDT have been, they are utterly irrelevant to JDT’s future. Maybe GB has been watching with raised eyebrows, but I will be VERY surprised if he has power to sack the coach. Past experience would suggest power most likely lies the other way round. The only thing that matters is where we are on the odd occasion one of their minions updates them with a league table (I assume they’ve learned what a league table is over the past 10+ years, maybe I am being generous here). We are third. JDT is safe as houses as long as the likes of Pasha likes him. 
 

3. Don’t take what JDT says in interviews at face value please. He might just being talking hollow bullshit to protect his players from public criticism. He might be talking to someone in India - but it is just bullshit. Most football managers talk bullshit - some because they are genuinely stupid (Ince, Coyle), some because they are clever enough to realise there is little to be gained being particularly honest in interviews (Dalglish). Souness style honesty is rare - and totally counter productive. JDT is clearly a clever and contained man (and very bloody stubborn too) he is always going to talk bullshit in interviews. I suggest we stop paying attention unless we are looking for crosswinds on his relationships with the Indians.

4. I think the death spirals were probably more to do with Mowbray’s inability to psychologically turn around a team totally shot of confidence - and his stubborn refusal to set up & prepare specifically for a clean sheet - when the shit started hitting the fan. Also - being shit at set pieces, never looking solid at the back, being too small and being comparatively unfit did not help either. He also assembled a team with lots of light weight bottlers (‘artists’ lol) and that didn’t help. However, for us to totally fall away second half of this season, like we did so many times under TM, we would have to have a manager now with the same peculiar inadequacies as TM. We don’t! JDT plays stupid football and makes stubborn selection choices. However, his team can certainly defend a lead, do practice set pieces, are not as unfit as a TM team and he doesn’t make me want to slit me wrists or down half a bottle of whisky when I hear him talk. He talks shit, yes, he is annoyingly stubborn, yes. I imagine he pisses the players off often, but I’d rather be pissed off with JDT as my boss, when things are going wrong, than feeling manically depressed with TM as my boss when it all goes tits up. We will have a bad spell before the season is out, but TM owns those death spirals - no one else.

[Dan]

6 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

That’s the beauty of football - winning against the odds. And on our form it was a big surprise. 
 

Batting away criticism of the club and manager by constantly quoting our league position doesn’t wash. You’ll have to do better than that because it’s obvious as it stands we’re heading for a fall

I think the same posters were saying the same thing when the death spiral kicked in last season. I wish I could have a bit of the blind optimism sometimes, but years of Rovers has made me a miserable negative bastard 😂

[blondie]

The January Transfer Window is a chance for Tomasson to create an identity, and a style to mirror his ambitions.

Anything less will inevitably lead to another death spiral of his own making.

However recent results suggest it may have started.

 

[Dan]

15 hours ago, roverandout said:

I want him to succeed and he came across well at the beginning and I'm sure promotion was on his agenda.  But I'm pretty sure scumbags have whispered in his ear that promotion isn't that important and it's about making profits on players.  Now he's dialled down expectations and probably has his feet up

 

14 hours ago, J*B said:

I think you’re right. Venkys have seen the 200M on offer for promotion to the Premier League and instead prioritised selling Ash Phillips for 15M in 2 years.

I wonder if getting promoted would stop the project of adding value to players and then selling them on for big profits? If we were in the Prem now, there’s no way we could risk playing any of our current academy graduates, we’d crash and burn with a team of inexperienced kids. 
 

Venky’s would have to spend a lot of money to even have a chance of staying up, we’d need an entirely new squad bar 2 or 3 players which would wipe out the £200 million and not allow us to continue the project. 
 

Though thinking about it, they could pocket the £200 million and then pocket the parachute payments and make more money that the project. They’re probably not clever enough to think of that though. I wonder why they bother with us, as it they always seem so half arsed. 

[Dan]

4 minutes ago, blondie said:

The January Transfer Window is a chance for Tomasson to create an identity, and a style to mirror his ambitions.

Anything less will inevitably lead to another death spiral of his own making.

However recent results suggest it may have started.

 

If Hirst(number 1 target!!🤯) and Mola are anything to go by, I’ve no confidence we’ll improve much. Brittain and Hyam have been great though, so fingers crossed. 

[roversfan99]

It is such a strange situation at the moment, the main thing that matters is that somehow we remain in third so if anyone is calling for his head, I can't see how that can be justified. But I am really struggling to find things to suggest that we will finish there or anywhere near there.

But I have no idea especially in an attacking sense what Tomasson is trying to do, we so often pose no threat at all with our goal yesterday being a total fluke and everything is so slow, dull, boring and often unproductive. He also is not getting the best of/fully utilising players like Dack, Markanday and Adam Wharton who do at least give a bit of spark. Entertainment is obviously not important like results are but I think we are as boring to watch as we ever have been since Appleton.

I think most saw a decline coming with recent poor form and I struggle to cling on to much to think that it won't carry on, the standard of the league is poor and we have some winnable games but a lot needs to change, including some proactive early transfer business which simply won't happen.

[roversfan99]

5 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes you are correct to say we have good wins then some dreadful performances but most teams in the league are like this. 2 examples PNE(who last 2 performances have been dreadful from what I am told) and Watford who were poor from reports yesterday. The championship is unpredictable for most teams and why it so enjoyable to watch 

Despite us being 3rd you think he is isn't get the best out of these players so what changes to the starting 11 and formation would you like to see to get the best out of the players for rest of the season? 

Results are most important but put that aside for the purposes of this question. Do you enjoy watching a Jon Dahl Tomasson managed Rovers and how they play? And how would you describe the style?

[Sparks Rover]

51 minutes ago, Dan said:

If Hirst(number 1 target!!🤯) and Mola are anything to go by, I’ve no confidence we’ll improve much. Brittain and Hyam have been great though, so fingers crossed. 

The worry is that anyone could see Hyam and Brittain are decent championship players before they came...their gambles have been shit, Smodìck, Hirst, Mola, Morton(arguable)....we need proven players, none of this clever arsed bollocks

[DE.]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

It is such a strange situation at the moment, the main thing that matters is that somehow we remain in third so if anyone is calling for his head, I can't see how that can be justified. But I am really struggling to find things to suggest that we will finish there or anywhere near there.

But I have no idea especially in an attacking sense what Tomasson is trying to do, we so often pose no threat at all with our goal yesterday being a total fluke and everything is so slow, dull, boring and often unproductive. He also is not getting the best of/fully utilising players like Dack, Markanday and Adam Wharton who do at least give a bit of spark. Entertainment is obviously not important like results are but I think we are as boring to watch as we ever have been since Appleton.

I think most saw a decline coming with recent poor form and I struggle to cling on to much to think that it won't carry on, the standard of the league is poor and we have some winnable games but a lot needs to change, including some proactive early transfer business which simply won't happen.

Pretty much, and you know at least 4 or 5 clubs will have a better second half of the season, if not more, so you have to expect we'll eventually finish a fair way off the playoff spots unless we see a radical improvement in performances between now and the end of the season. It's not impossible but despite our current position it's difficult to be optimistic. 

[broadsword]

On 27/12/2022 at 11:26, K-Hod said:

Playing with Hirst is like playing with ten men, he’s had four months now and he’s still absolutely useless. Send him back.

All this talk of a ‘project’ and just batting away another limp performance where we have loads of the ball, but never really do anything with it bar the goal, it’s awful.

If we aren’t even bothered about getting promotion, but we are more bothered about a ‘project’ or adding value to players, you start to wonder, what’s the point?

Oh God, absolutely.

It's not a FCKING project, it's the centre of a community. It's something for like-minded souls to gather round and share in the pain and glory. Take their minds off of all their troubles by being part of something bigger.

Instead we're owned by chicken botherers thousands of miles away, they take no interest, but they refuse to sell. We're being run by faces in the shadows, time servers and ring holders who don't want to rock the boat. And as a front man, we have another guy who talks about projects, marginally improving squad value while we become further indebted to our abductors

Well, you can shove all that. Football is meant to be fun. And if it's not fun, then there should always be hope.

Well it's not been fun for a very long time. It's dispiriting. Demoralising. Disenchanting. Demotivating. As for hope, the only hope I hold onto is somehow we get rid of these people and become a proper football club again. 

I still care out of loyalty, but the feeling isn't really there any more

Edited December 28, 2022 by broadsword

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 minutes ago, broadsword said:

Oh God, absolutely.

It's not a FCKING project, it's the centre of a community. It's something for like-minded souls to gather round and share in the pain and glory. Take their minds off of all their troubles by being part of something bigger.

Instead we're owned by chicken botherers thousands of miles away, they take no interest, but they refuse to sell. We're being run by faces in the shadows, time servers and ring holders who don't want to rock the boat. And as a front man, we have another guy who talks about projects, marginally improving squad value while we become further indebted to our abductors

Well, you can shove all that. Football is meant to be fun. And if it's not fun, then there should always be hope.

Well it's not been fun for a very long time. It's dispiriting. Demoralising. Disenchanting. Demotivating. As for hope, the only hope I hold onto is somehow we get rid of these people and become a proper football club again. 

I still care out of loyalty, but the feeling isn't really there any more

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You missed out “ depressing “. It’s a miracle we’re getting the attendances we are.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Dan]

52 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

The worry is that anyone could see Hyam and Brittain are decent championship players before they came...their gambles have been shit, Smodìck, Hirst, Mola, Morton(arguable)....we need proven players, none of this clever arsed bollocks

The problem is that I don’t think JDT’s vision is not going to work in this league because we haven’t got and won’t be able to afford the players to pull it off and I believe you need to mix it up. Total football isn’t the answer in this league; the two teams I believe will go up automatically are the Dingles and Sheff Utd, both teams are full of shithouse bullies as well as decent players. Look how well Luton did last season by kicking teams like us off the pitch. 
 

Oh how I’d love a few players in the mould of Nelsen, Savage, Reid and Todd. I’d love Black eye Rovers to return, but I don’t believe it’s JDT’s style and I believe he’s that stubborn that he will fall on his own sword before he changes. If it all works out it’ll be great(I’d love JDT to be a massive success), but if we’d got a more proven manager in like Big Sam(who I wasn’t a massive fan of towards the end, but appreciated what he did, especially in recent times), he’d bring in a few shit houses and also make the most of what players we do have rather than trying to make them play in a way they can’t. 
 

Not sure I’ve got the appetite for another 3 season journey/project that ends up in the same place we started. 

[broadsword]

28 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You missed out “ depressing “. It’s a miracle we’re getting the attendances we are.

Aye.

If I were a bird, I'd fly over India and shit all over venkys. Shove the league position, I don't bloody care. They've completely changed the complexion of the club.. Shitehawk Dossers FC.