Jon Dahl Tomasson - Sweden coach

[broadsword]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

Great post. It would be better if we could all do this down the dog & duck over a pint, a game of darts and a laugh, but alas that's not possible in most cases so we're stuck with forums that, whilst useful, aren't the best way for debating the things that we're all passionate about, which can often get the better of us all.

I hope engaging with me yesterday didn't make things any worse for you and that you feel right as rain soon. 👍 I guess a decent transfer window will help, here's hoping!! 🤞

It's fine, no worries. And to be honest, atko was my favourite player back in the day. And he was as fit as a butcher's dog 🐶

Edited January 4, 2023 by broadsword

[Mike E]

On 03/01/2023 at 16:20, Mattyblue said:

A lot of it is psychological. If we’d have drawn a few of those bad defeats, and some of the wins too - so still on pretty much the same points we are on now, I bet the general feeling around the club would be much better.

Unlike the charge up the table last November/December, we’ve not put any kind of run together since August, so never really feeling like we are getting some momentum behind us. Every win feeling like it’s followed by a stinking defeat, especially the two shockers to local rivals bookending a mid season break.

It’s certainly true that draws don’t really do a lot for your league position, but a nice unbeaten run does a lot of the mood!

The fact that one win and two losses is worth the same as three draws is what has made this runn feel so awful.

But once you get your head around it, it's not all that bad.

[Upside Down]

6 hours ago, tomphil said:

Last season and this season has provided the best chances yet to really ramp up the rectification process. Lets hope the true aim is to push on and not just float along.

Next 6-8 months will show if there is genuine intent or not.

I genuinely believe the intent is for us to endlessly float around in this division. Like a turd in a septic tank that refuses to either sink to the bottom or find it's way out to the effluent field.

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

The fact that one win and two losses is worth the same as three draws is what has made this runn feel so awful.

But once you get your head around it, it's not all that bad.

It's just that a lot of those losses could and should have been avoidable.

I agree though it's all about the points and i used to tear my hair out at Bowyer's unbeaten run talk when we kept drawing.

Still, we should have a couple more points on the board and that will be key come May.

[Upside Down]

10 hours ago, goozburger said:

Tomasson is not a motivator. He can't be. Our players often look like they just want to get the defeat over with and go home instead of fighting tooth and nail. Burnley, Preston, Wigan... The way we played in those games was very similar to how we played in other heavy defeats (Reading, for example) whereby we just didn't turn up and didn't give two figs what happened.

On the morning of the Burnley game, I said that I was expecting a hard-fought defeat. Instead, we just rolled over because a) they were up for it, and b) we weren't. It was never the defeat that I was going to feel embarrassed about, but the manner of it proved to be. You're right that our messing around at the back cost us, at least on paper, but our lack of effort in those games was hurtful to me as a supporter. That day went on forever, and thoughts of how "Venky-like" it was came rushing back. Distant. Aloof. Sterile. Empty. And ultimately being laughed at by our noisy neighbours.

Urgh... Let's talk about something else!

That's what I was trying to say but when I look at my post I didn't say any of that. 

It's not really the defeats, its the gutless performances and the insistence in playing a style that has been proven time and time and time again to be nothing other than a complete disaster.

[DeeCee]

On 04/01/2023 at 12:35, broadsword said:

Honestly lads, take it from me, the aggro just isn't worth it.

Yesterday I had terrible neck ache, my jaw was killing me and my sinuses too. Look what happened, I got myself into a silly argument by venting. I should've just accepted that other people saw it differently, said thank you very much and got on with my day.

Acceptance is the key word. Accepting is not the same as liking or surrendering to. I accept that people have different views, I accept that Burnley rammed us, I've even come close to accepting (and it certainly doesn't mean I think they're ok) that venkys own us right now. Without accepting the things that you can't do anything about, your mental health suffers.

We've all just come through this pandemic, some of us have had a very hard time, there's a cost of living crisis going on. We should all be looking out for each other if anything.

I wish you all (and I do mean all, whether we see eye to eye or not) a great day, and a happy new year. Look after yourselves, and try to look out for people around you who may be suffering but don't want to put their hands up. If you're going through hell, I feel for you more than you know and I wish you strength in digging things out tough. Take it easy guys

 

 

 

 

"If you're going through hell, keep going"

Winston Churchill, I believe?

[Dreams of 1995]

17 hours ago, Upside Down said:

That's what I was trying to say but when I look at my post I didn't say any of that. 

It's not really the defeats, its the gutless performances and the insistence in playing a style that has been proven time and time and time again to be nothing other than a complete disaster.

A complete disaster would assume we are not 3rd

I know people keep laughing at this line, but we are there out of merit and merit alone. If a loss is the fault of the manager, so are the wins

We have 4 games we should win now: Rotherham, Bristol, Blackpool and Wigan

Obviously we know what happened last time we played Wigan so I'd expect a performance there

Personally I am going to wait until the end of those games to decide if I get excited by promotion. In my opinion we should have 12pts between now and the Watford game - I'd be happy with 9.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We have 4 games we should win now: Rotherham, Bristol, Blackpool and Wigan

🤦‍♂️

[roversfan99]

We won 2 and lost 2 of the reverse fixtures.

[rigger]

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

A complete disaster would assume we are not 3rd

I know people keep laughing at this line, but we are there out of merit and merit alone. If a loss is the fault of the manager, so are the wins

We have 4 games we should win now: Rotherham, Bristol, Blackpool and Wigan

Obviously we know what happened last time we played Wigan so I'd expect a performance there

Personally I am going to wait until the end of those games to decide if I get excited by promotion. In my opinion we should have 12pts between now and the Watford game - I'd be happy with 9.

I'd be disappointed with less than 9

[Upside Down]

5 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

A complete disaster would assume we are not 3rd

I know people keep laughing at this line, but we are there out of merit and merit alone. If a loss is the fault of the manager, so are the wins

We have 4 games we should win now: Rotherham, Bristol, Blackpool and Wigan

Obviously we know what happened last time we played Wigan so I'd expect a performance there

Personally I am going to wait until the end of those games to decide if I get excited by promotion. In my opinion we should have 12pts between now and the Watford game - I'd be happy with 9.

Wigan, Burnley and PNE were a disaster. 

A totally avoidable disaster. Like seeing a huge iceberg ahead and refusing to change course. 

[Eddie]

On 04/01/2023 at 16:17, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Wether we like it or not there is a culture of failure at Ewood Park. It came in through the door with the Chicken Chokers. We win a few and lose a few and that’s about it. Until that changes any talk of promotion is just pie in the sky. I really wish it wasn’t so but unfortunately that’s the way it is. It doesn’t really matter who is in charge at managerial level, we could have Pep himself,  we’d still be treading water.

The blame for the culture within the squad should fall firmly at the feet of any manager. The owners might tolerate underperformance, they might not change managers when we want, they might not invest exactly how we want, but they aren't there on a daily basis speaking to the players, putting messages out in the media, and setting standards. 

Mowbray may have realised that he was on the gravy train and was happy to not rock the boat, but he still has to take responsibility for that. Blaming everything on the owners is a colossal oversight and just plays into the idea that managers can come here and stay in cruise control. 

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The blame for the culture within the squad should fall firmly at the feet of any manager. The owners might tolerate underperformance, they might not change managers when we want, they might not invest exactly how we want, but they aren't there on a daily basis speaking to the players, putting messages out in the media, and setting standards. 

Mowbray may have realised that he was on the gravy train and was happy to not rock the boat, but he still has to take responsibility for that. Blaming everything on the owners is a colossal oversight and just plays into the idea that managers can come here and stay in cruise control. 

Its not if every single manager is in the same situation, at that point after 12 years you surely work out the common denominator.

I dont doubt that each manager has tried his best but when poor performance isnt punished then those in employment arent going to leave, they will keep taking the money and believing thay they can improve as anyone would.

The only colossal oversight is you letting off the owners when they are where 12 years of underperformance has stemmed from.

The way they work, whoever they employ is somewhat fighting a losing battle. Its amazing that after all of these years that anyone is keen to deflect blame from them, especially when blame towards fellow fans is so easily done!

[Sweaty Gussets]

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Its not if every single manager is in the same situation, at that point after 12 years you surely work out the common denominator.

I dont doubt that each manager has tried his best but when poor performance isnt punished then those in employment arent going to leave, they will keep taking the money and believing thay they can improve as anyone would.

The only colossal oversight is you letting off the owners when they are where 12 years of underperformance has stemmed from.

The way they work, whoever they employ is somewhat fighting a losing battle. Its amazing that after all of these years that anyone is keen to deflect blame from them, especially when blame towards fellow fans is so easily done!

Was Mowbray fighting a losing battle when he had us 2nd after a run of 10 games unbeaten, and then decided not to bring a striker in to bolster the ranks in January? We then scored once in the next 10 games and went on a run of 2 wins in 17. Who's fault was that?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

The blame for the culture within the squad should fall firmly at the feet of any manager. The owners might tolerate underperformance, they might not change managers when we want, they might not invest exactly how we want, but they aren't there on a daily basis speaking to the players, putting messages out in the media, and setting standards. 

Mowbray may have realised that he was on the gravy train and was happy to not rock the boat, but he still has to take responsibility for that. Blaming everything on the owners is a colossal oversight and just plays into the idea that managers can come here and stay in cruise control. 

I don’t know what line of work you are in Eddie but at all the places I worked at if the top echelon of management were basically absent the ship would have gone down pretty rapidly. The people with their name over the door need to be hands on for the business to thrive.

[Upside Down]

50 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Was Mowbray fighting a losing battle when he had us 2nd after a run of 10 games unbeaten, and then decided not to bring a striker in to bolster the ranks in January? We then scored once in the next 10 games and went on a run of 2 wins in 17. Who's fault was that?

Both.

[Sweaty Gussets]

16 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

Both.

eh?

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Was Mowbray fighting a losing battle when he had us 2nd after a run of 10 games unbeaten, and then decided not to bring a striker in to bolster the ranks in January? We then scored once in the next 10 games and went on a run of 2 wins in 17. Who's fault was that?

I can't understand why that gets swerved in order to pile everything at the door in Pune.

He/we were good enough to get ourselves in that position and even stayed there comfortably for a long while despite turning shite. Mowbrays options were no doubt limited and the owners should have freed up some money and told him to go for it and he'd get a new contract if we finished top 6.

However his hands were not tied he had options and he ballsed it up going for squaddies, back up and a development player. Absolutely classic Mowbray who for a few years previous had positioned himself right in that no mans land between ownership and team ambition. Forget promotion unless you have 100 million and reshaping the narrative that he was now a development coach only interested in lads individual progress.

He could and should have bolstered the forward options properly just like he never addressed the defensive frailties a few seasons before.  His mentality was never promotion or top 6 and that rubbed off on the team imo, just because the owners aren't on the phone with 5 million saying go for it does that mean you don't have a real go then just blame it on them ?

Where was his own ambition ?

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Was Mowbray fighting a losing battle when he had us 2nd after a run of 10 games unbeaten, and then decided not to bring a striker in to bolster the ranks in January? We then scored once in the next 10 games and went on a run of 2 wins in 17. Who's fault was that?

 

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

I can't understand why that gets swerved in order to pile everything at the door in Pune.

He/we were good enough to get ourselves in that position and even stayed there comfortably for a long while despite turning shite. Mowbrays options were no doubt limited and the owners should have freed up some money and told him to go for it and he'd get a new contract if we finished top 6.

However his hands were not tied he had options and he ballsed it up going for squaddies, back up and a development player. Absolutely classic Mowbray who for a few years previous had positioned himself right in that no mans land between ownership and team ambition. Forget promotion unless you have 100 million and reshaping the narrative that he was now a development coach only interested in lads individual progress.

He could and should have bolstered the forward options properly just like he never addressed the defensive frailties a few seasons before.  His mentality was never promotion or top 6 and that rubbed off on the team imo, just because the owners aren't on the phone with 5 million saying go for it does that mean you don't have a real go then just blame it on them ?

Where was his own ambition ?

The strikers he turned down where kid loanees

Should he have signed one? Probably yes. Was Giles misused and Hedges underused? Yes. And could Mowbray have done better having done so well to get us to 2nd? Yes. Are we all glad hes gone? Yes.

But the overiding issue wasnt him, it is and always will be Venkys.

[Sweaty Gussets]

29 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The strikers he turned down where kid loanees

Should he have signed one? Probably yes. Was Giles misused and Hedges underused? Yes. And could Mowbray have done better having done so well to get us to 2nd? Yes. Are we all glad hes gone? Yes.

But the overiding issue wasnt him, it is and always will be Venkys.

This is your problem. You can't separate the two issues. Yes, Venky's are shit, but they weren't responsible for Mowbray completely fucking up last season because he was too wedded to his football 'principles' to sign a striker. 

[roversfan99]

34 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

This is your problem. You can't separate the two issues. Yes, Venky's are shit, but they weren't responsible for Mowbray completely fucking up last season because he was too wedded to his football 'principles' to sign a striker. 

My point is that the only strikers available in budget were kids on loan from the Premier League. I have said that he should have still taken one.

Whilst Venkys didnt directly not sign a striker on loan as Mowbray should. They neither provided enough funds for such a great position nor did they allow the manager to trade a soon to be out of contract player to raise funds that way. Loans of the likes of Connolly and Forss who were linked by the LT are not going to make a major difference whereas even reinvesting 4m would have done.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The strikers he turned down where kid loanees

Should he have signed one? Probably yes. Was Giles misused and Hedges underused? Yes. And could Mowbray have done better having done so well to get us to 2nd? Yes. Are we all glad hes gone? Yes.

But the overiding issue wasnt him, it is and always will be Venkys.

We know that and it dates back too 2010, nothing has changed on that score.

However it's genuinely bizarre to hold them directly accountable for what a manager does with players hes brought in. And for not signing something more suited to the teams immediate needs with the limited movement he had available.

FOUR players allowed to be brought in probably the most in a Jan window for a while, not one was a success in the second half of last season.  Despite the fact that at least two of them were decent players as they've shown this season, one here and one elsewhere played in his actual position.

All that is at Mowbrays door, the end.

[roversfan99]

5 hours ago, tomphil said:

We know that and it dates back too 2010, nothing has changed on that score.

However it's genuinely bizarre to hold them directly accountable for what a manager does with players hes brought in. And for not signing something more suited to the teams immediate needs with the limited movement he had available.

FOUR players allowed to be brought in probably the most in a Jan window for a while, not one was a success in the second half of last season.  Despite the fact that at least two of them were decent players as they've shown this season, one here and one elsewhere played in his actual position.

All that is at Mowbrays door, the end.

I have never suggested that the poor usage of those signings was anything other than Mowbray's fault. I also think that he should have signed a loanee striker rather than the alternative of no other striker but I don't think we should have only been able to sign a kid on loan in that position.

My point is that the bigger problem came from the owners unwillingness either to have a serious push for promotion or even to allow the manager the freedom to sell a player who then went for free in favour of getting a couple of players in, benefitting us in the short and long term.

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The strikers he turned down where kid loanees

Should he have signed one? Probably yes. Was Giles misused and Hedges underused? Yes. And could Mowbray have done better having done so well to get us to 2nd? Yes. Are we all glad hes gone? Yes.

But the overiding issue wasnt him, it is and always will be Venkys.

He wasted Giles and Hedges should have been in the team earlier than he did. 

He balls it up last season by his stubbornness and unwillingness to adapt and change tactics and how we were playing. Mowbray overthinks the game at times and that's this biggest downfall for him

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

My point is that the only strikers available in budget were kids on loan from the Premier League. I have said that he should have still taken one.

Whilst Venkys didnt directly not sign a striker on loan as Mowbray should. They neither provided enough funds for such a great position nor did they allow the manager to trade a soon to be out of contract player to raise funds that way. Loans of the likes of Connolly and Forss who were linked by the LT are not going to make a major difference whereas even reinvesting 4m would have done.

Who says we could only sign a kid on loan for the Striker position? 

How do you they didn't provide the funds for him to allow him to sign more players than he says? 

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I have never suggested that the poor usage of those signings was anything other than Mowbray's fault. I also think that he should have signed a loanee striker rather than the alternative of no other striker but I don't think we should have only been able to sign a kid on loan in that position.

My point is that the bigger problem came from the owners unwillingness either to have a serious push for promotion or even to allow the manager the freedom to sell a player who then went for free in favour of getting a couple of players in, benefitting us in the short and long term.

 

The owners allow Mowbray time and patience to build a team and the fact he finished mid table with Armstrong, Elliott, Gallagher, Dolan and BBD was that really good enough?

[Mattyblue]

Well you certainly thought so until the very bitter end!