Premier League 22-23

[jim mk2]

2 hours ago, Upside Down said:

And only let the actual Champions play in the Champions League.

And go back to its true and best form, the European Cup, knockout football home and away from the first round

[roverandout]

22 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Could Roy Keane not dictate games?

Roy Keane was brilliant at getting his team to raise their levels.  He was a leader but never a dictator of games. The juventus tie in turin in 99 was one of his best performances.  He led by example 

[riverholmes]

8 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

They've certainly over-egged the pudding with their celebrations.

It's a fine achievement, but it's a very minor trophy.

I compare it to Rovers’ Worthy Cup win but the League Cup is an established tournament with all the Prem clubs involved, if not fielding full-strength.

Rovers had a relatively charmed run that year with Sheffield Wed in the semis. However, we definitely didn’t have one of the biggest wage bills of all the teams involved as, I suppose, West Ham did.

Regardless, it is infuriating how the powers that be are devaluing European football with tournament expansions that largely, I feel benefit the wealthy clubs and leagues.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, simongarnerisgod said:

i wholeheartedly agree

I agree

Why call it the Champions League then in the first place ? 

It's all money and not about smaller leagues who win their own domestic league but they have very little chance of facing Barcelona or Man City cos they don't generate the money for UEFA and its made difficult for them to reach group stages then a team that finishes 3rd in PL or La Liga. Its should be teams that win their league in the champions league only

Roy Keane was leader on the pitch. He was defensive midfielder who scored a few goals a season. He was never midfield playmaker

Edited June 8, 2023 by chaddyrovers

[roversfan99]

I didn't realise that defensive/deeper lyong midfielders couldn't dictate games. In fact they are often are the ones that do, sitting back setting the tempo. Pirlo, Busquets, Alonso, Xavi, Rodri, Keane, Tugay, Scholes later in his career, the list goes on. The games played at their pace.

Rice is a different type of player and very good at what he does, point being, yesterday he struggled to get a grip and not against elite opponents, Amrabat ran the show.

Can Rice play for a bigger team? Of course, but I think he falls short of the very best because he is decent on the ball, but he is not going to dictate a game. At the top level with England against the best teams, he is effective at stemming the tide but he won't run the show and we have come up short because we never have those players. Even Bellingham (a much more rounded player) is more attacking. The perfect player to accompany the pair would be a Scholes.

His next move is an interesting one. His price tag is likely to be extortionate. I don't think he would get a move to a team like City, Barca or Real Madrid because he is not quite at the same level, if he did move there, I think he would need to just be a water carrier for their better players and maybe even play slightly further up the pitch. Liverpool would suit based on a Klopp ideal team but I doubt they could afford him. Arsenal maybe, but I think they lack a quality player to dictate the game, unless you got him doing Jorginho's running. Or maybe a Bayern although the league is slightly less quality, its just on that very top stage say in a Champions League knockout game, is he quite there? 

[chaddyrovers]

Why couldn't Liverpool afford to buy Rice? 

Tugay was attacking midfielder in his days before Rovers days. 

Xavi and Alonso are very different players to Rice, Keane or Rodri and how they play that deep layer midfielder role. Rice, Keane and Rodri are defensive midfielder who protect the back 4 whilst Xavi and Alonso are deep layer midfielders who dictate the play. 

 

[onlyoneDuff]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I agree

Why call it the Champions League then in the first place ? 

It's all money and not about smaller leagues who win their own domestic league but they have very little chance of facing Barcelona or Man City cos they don't generate the money for UEFA and its made difficult for them to reach group stages then a team that finishes 3rd in PL or La Liga. Its should be teams that win their league in the champions league only

Roy Keane was leader on the pitch. He was defensive midfielder who scored a few goals a season. He was never midfield playmaker

Having watched him for many years..Roy Keane's first touch and successful pass  after winning a tackle in the opponents half qualifies him as being a playmaker..he had a true gift of not only winning tackles but winning the ball at the same time  which caught many teams on the counter attack .

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by onlyoneDuff

[Upside Down]

2 hours ago, onlyoneDuff said:

Having watched him for many years..Roy Keane's first touch and successful pass  after winning a tackle in the opponents half qualifies him as being a playmaker..he had a true gift of not only winning tackles but winning the ball at the same time  which caught many teams on the counter attack .

 

 

Shame he was such a cunt.

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, onlyoneDuff said:

Having watched him for many years..Roy Keane's first touch and successful pass  after winning a tackle in the opponents half qualifies him as being a playmaker..he had a true gift of not only winning tackles but winning the ball at the same time  which caught many teams on the counter attack .

 

 

Playmaker is someone like Xavi or Erikson or De Bruyne 

[Mattyblue]

6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why couldn't Liverpool afford to buy Rice? 

Tugay was attacking midfielder in his days before Rovers days. 

Xavi and Alonso are very different players to Rice, Keane or Rodri and how they play that deep layer midfielder role. Rice, Keane and Rodri are defensive midfielder who protect the back 4 whilst Xavi and Alonso are deep layer midfielders who dictate the play. 

 

Because they are on record saying they don’t want to pay that kind of money, Mac Allister was a no brainier at his price.

[ben_the_beast]

6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why couldn't Liverpool afford to buy Rice? 

I think the could but they won't. Liverpool need multiple additions in centre midfield and therefore need to split their budget accordingly. If their squad was near perfect and they only needed 1, maybe 2 summer signings I think they'd be in for him. 

They've already brought in MacAllister for 35-45 million and will need at least two more. It makes a fee of almost 100m for Rice unaffordable. 

[Dreams of 1995]

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I didn't realise that defensive/deeper lyong midfielders couldn't dictate games. In fact they are often are the ones that do, sitting back setting the tempo. Pirlo, Busquets, Alonso, Xavi, Rodri, Keane, Tugay, Scholes later in his career, the list goes on. The games played at their pace.

Rice is a different type of player and very good at what he does, point being, yesterday he struggled to get a grip and not against elite opponents, Amrabat ran the show.

Can Rice play for a bigger team? Of course, but I think he falls short of the very best because he is decent on the ball, but he is not going to dictate a game. At the top level with England against the best teams, he is effective at stemming the tide but he won't run the show and we have come up short because we never have those players. Even Bellingham (a much more rounded player) is more attacking. The perfect player to accompany the pair would be a Scholes.

His next move is an interesting one. His price tag is likely to be extortionate. I don't think he would get a move to a team like City, Barca or Real Madrid because he is not quite at the same level, if he did move there, I think he would need to just be a water carrier for their better players and maybe even play slightly further up the pitch. Liverpool would suit based on a Klopp ideal team but I doubt they could afford him. Arsenal maybe, but I think they lack a quality player to dictate the game, unless you got him doing Jorginho's running. Or maybe a Bayern although the league is slightly less quality, its just on that very top stage say in a Champions League knockout game, is he quite there? 

I didn't realise that playing in a defensive midfield role meant you had to dictate the game to be considered 'the very best'?

It is a very one dimensional view of a defensive midfielder; borne out of the modern day greats like Pirlo and Alonso

The whole basis of the post is that Rice must dictate tempo in order to be considered great. Where does this put the likes of Claude Makelele? Or Gennaro Gattuso? These players aren't a "thing of the past" - they are classic holding midfielders who break up play, something you have said Rice is good at

You say it like it is a bad thing that Rice might play for clubs like Barca or Madrid to be a water carrier. It isn't. Didier Deschamps made a mighty fine career out of that, so good in fact that the term "water carrier" was coined because of him

Likewise, "the Makelele role", a defensive midfielder who broke up play, not exactly a Pirlo on the ball, but made sure that the midfield and defence didn't become disjointed

There are plenty of fantastic defensive midfielders who did not need to dictate the game to be classed as one of the very best. This is just critique for the sake of it

[ben_the_beast]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I didn't realise that playing in a defensive midfield role meant you had to dictate the game to be considered 'the very best'?

It is a very one dimensional view of a defensive midfielder; borne out of the modern day greats like Pirlo and Alonso

The whole basis of the post is that Rice must dictate tempo in order to be considered great. Where does this put the likes of Claude Makelele? Or Gennaro Gattuso? These players aren't a "thing of the past" - they are classic holding midfielders who break up play, something you have said Rice is good at

You say it like it is a bad thing that Rice might play for clubs like Barca or Madrid to be a water carrier. It isn't. Didier Deschamps made a mighty fine career out of that, so good in fact that the term "water carrier" was coined because of him

Likewise, "the Makelele role", a defensive midfielder who broke up play, not exactly a Pirlo on the ball, but made sure that the midfield and defence didn't become disjointed

There are plenty of fantastic defensive midfielders who did not need to dictate the game to be classed as one of the very best. This is just critique for the sake of it

For me, it's less about the role itself but the price tag attached to Rice because he's English. As it stands he lacks that little bit extra that someone like Casemiro has, but it's difficult to develop this side of his game in a side which doesn't look to dominate the ball. He may reach that level. 

The issue is that a 'water carrier' can demand a big fee, but typically not at the same level of an attacking player who can change a game all by themselves. The English premium and the price West Ham are looking for is in this category. As a result I think Rice gets judged a little harshly and I don't think he's quite worth the money which is being touted. As a 'water carrier' though, he is superb.

[Dreams of 1995]

17 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

For me, it's less about the role itself but the price tag attached to Rice because he's English. As it stands he lacks that little bit extra that someone like Casemiro has, but it's difficult to develop this side of his game in a side which doesn't look to dominate the ball. He may reach that level. 

The issue is that a 'water carrier' can demand a big fee, but typically not at the same level of an attacking player who can change a game all by themselves. The English premium and the price West Ham are looking for is in this category. As a result I think Rice gets judged a little harshly and I don't think he's quite worth the money which is being touted. As a 'water carrier' though, he is superb.

Yeah, I don't disagree there is a premium. The EPL has rules regarding domestic players so when a home grown players becomes your club captain then for you to part company the offer has to be worth it. The premium is a symptom of the Premier League's success

Chelsea paid just over £30m for Kante back in 2016. Is Rice worth 3x that amount now? If you looked at it in isolation then probably not, but with all the factors of a home grown boy, club captain, full England international and you can start to see the price tag rise

I just hope he does not suffer the same fate as Harry Maguire, who has been ridiculed at Utd and in large part due to that English premium. Something tells me Rice won't struggle though and will take the step up when surrounded by much better players, and in a team where they want to keep the ball. It is a lot easier to play CDM in a club that want to retain possession, instead of being dragged around for 90 minutes. He has always looked better in an England shirt because of this imo

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 hours ago, onlyoneDuff said:

Having watched him for many years..Roy Keane's first touch and successful pass  after winning a tackle in the opponents half qualifies him as being a playmaker..he had a true gift of not only winning tackles but winning the ball at the same time  which caught many teams on the counter attack .

 

 

When he was in his prime it was like having 12 players when the opposition only had 11.

[wilsdenrover]

34 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

When he was in his prime it was like having 12 players when the opposition only had 11.

13 if you include the ref…

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I didn't realise that playing in a defensive midfield role meant you had to dictate the game to be considered 'the very best'?

It is a very one dimensional view of a defensive midfielder; borne out of the modern day greats like Pirlo and Alonso

The whole basis of the post is that Rice must dictate tempo in order to be considered great. Where does this put the likes of Claude Makelele? Or Gennaro Gattuso? These players aren't a "thing of the past" - they are classic holding midfielders who break up play, something you have said Rice is good at

You say it like it is a bad thing that Rice might play for clubs like Barca or Madrid to be a water carrier. It isn't. Didier Deschamps made a mighty fine career out of that, so good in fact that the term "water carrier" was coined because of him

Likewise, "the Makelele role", a defensive midfielder who broke up play, not exactly a Pirlo on the ball, but made sure that the midfield and defence didn't become disjointed

There are plenty of fantastic defensive midfielders who did not need to dictate the game to be classed as one of the very best. This is just critique for the sake of it

Its just the side of the game that I think that prevents him from being right up there with anyone in the world, his use of the ball. Seen it with England and West Ham including the other night. Even the likes of Makelele, Keane, Rodri etc were much better on the ball. I still think he is a very good player. I don't think he is good at breaking up play, he is excellent at it.

There is nothing wrong with being a water carrier and indeed I was just speculating as to which top club he would fit into and how would be best to use him. I don't think he would get into the City side for example. If say he went to Real Madrid, they have players like Modric and Kroos who usually play ahead of a sitter. Would he be better sat behind where I do think deeper, it allows him to use his excellent ability to snuff out danger and read the game? Or would his limitations on the ball (that is relative, he is not terrible on it, just not really the type to control a game) cause issues moving the ball on, receiving it on the half turn? On the flip side, have a Modric sitting and have him as a box to box midfielder, runs all day but would he do enough going forward, and would it somewhat waste his defensive ability to read danger?

The value aspect is a different argument, if I was a big club I would be wary purely based on his expected cost. He would certainly add something to the vast majority of teams.

[Dreams of 1995]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Its just the side of the game that I think that prevents him from being right up there with anyone in the world, his use of the ball. Seen it with England and West Ham including the other night. Even the likes of Makelele, Keane, Rodri etc were much better on the ball. I still think he is a very good player. I don't think he is good at breaking up play, he is excellent at it.

There is nothing wrong with being a water carrier and indeed I was just speculating as to which top club he would fit into and how would be best to use him. I don't think he would get into the City side for example. If say he went to Real Madrid, they have players like Modric and Kroos who usually play ahead of a sitter. Would he be better sat behind where I do think deeper, it allows him to use his excellent ability to snuff out danger and read the game? Or would his limitations on the ball (that is relative, he is not terrible on it, just not really the type to control a game) cause issues moving the ball on, receiving it on the half turn? On the flip side, have a Modric sitting and have him as a box to box midfielder, runs all day but would he do enough going forward, and would it somewhat waste his defensive ability to read danger?

The value aspect is a different argument, if I was a big club I would be wary purely based on his expected cost. He would certainly add something to the vast majority of teams.

Makelele was never as good on the ball as Rice is now

He's nowhere near as limited on the ball as you are making out in my opinion. It did get me thinking though, where does he sit in the PL? The Prem do a good stats table for players tbf..

He had the 10th most successful passes, 12th for touches, 9th most successful tackles and 1st in interceptions. Despite that amount of defensive play he only picked up 5 yellows. He was in the top 10 for most minutes played too. And he won a trophy. I know you don't think stats are a real measure of a player, but they look pretty damn good for a defensive midfielder imo

You have kind of reversed a bit from your discussion with Chaddy - maybe when you two talk you are both prone to taking the extreme side of the argument? - where you called Rice average on the ball, and said he struggles to control possession

I just don't think that adds up. It certainly doesn't when in an England shirt. He beats players on occasion and keeps the ball ticking nicely. He isn't the player who will break defences consistently but he's the type of player you so desperately miss when he isn't there

I don't think you are comparing apples with apples. The idea he can't be "right up there" because he doesn't pull up stats like Rodri, whilst playing for West Ham. I don't think it is a fair assessment. I remember Bellingham saying that it was Rice who allowed him to play the way he did in the WC, specifically the Senegal game. Some players just make others better

 

[roverandout]

2 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

For me, it's less about the role itself but the price tag attached to Rice because he's English. As it stands he lacks that little bit extra that someone like Casemiro has, but it's difficult to develop this side of his game in a side which doesn't look to dominate the ball. He may reach that level. 

The issue is that a 'water carrier' can demand a big fee, but typically not at the same level of an attacking player who can change a game all by themselves. The English premium and the price West Ham are looking for is in this category. As a result I think Rice gets judged a little harshly and I don't think he's quite worth the money which is being touted. As a 'water carrier' though, he is superb.

Casemiro was fortunate to play alongside kroos and mordric for years.  They made his job easier.  We won't know just how good rice can be at club level until he plays alongside elite midfielders.  He plays alongside Bellingham and its elevated him even more for England playing alongside an elite midfielder at international level.  As u say though as an Industrious midfielder he is superb

[roverandout]

28 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Makelele was never as good on the ball as Rice is now

He's nowhere near as limited on the ball as you are making out in my opinion. It did get me thinking though, where does he sit in the PL? The Prem do a good stats table for players tbf..

He had the 10th most successful passes, 12th for touches, 9th most successful tackles and 1st in interceptions. Despite that amount of defensive play he only picked up 5 yellows. He was in the top 10 for most minutes played too. And he won a trophy. I know you don't think stats are a real measure of a player, but they look pretty damn good for a defensive midfielder imo

You have kind of reversed a bit from your discussion with Chaddy - maybe when you two talk you are both prone to taking the extreme side of the argument? - where you called Rice average on the ball, and said he struggles to control possession

I just don't think that adds up. It certainly doesn't when in an England shirt. He beats players on occasion and keeps the ball ticking nicely. He isn't the player who will break defences consistently but he's the type of player you so desperately miss when he isn't there

I don't think you are comparing apples with apples. The idea he can't be "right up there" because he doesn't pull up stats like Rodri, whilst playing for West Ham. I don't think it is a fair assessment. I remember Bellingham saying that it was Rice who allowed him to play the way he did in the WC, specifically the Senegal game. Some players just make others better

 

True.  His transition play from winning possession and playing a forward accurate pass is statistically one of the best in the epl

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Makelele was never as good on the ball as Rice is now

He's nowhere near as limited on the ball as you are making out in my opinion. It did get me thinking though, where does he sit in the PL? The Prem do a good stats table for players tbf..

He had the 10th most successful passes, 12th for touches, 9th most successful tackles and 1st in interceptions. Despite that amount of defensive play he only picked up 5 yellows. He was in the top 10 for most minutes played too. And he won a trophy. I know you don't think stats are a real measure of a player, but they look pretty damn good for a defensive midfielder imo

You have kind of reversed a bit from your discussion with Chaddy - maybe when you two talk you are both prone to taking the extreme side of the argument? - where you called Rice average on the ball, and said he struggles to control possession

I just don't think that adds up. It certainly doesn't when in an England shirt. He beats players on occasion and keeps the ball ticking nicely. He isn't the player who will break defences consistently but he's the type of player you so desperately miss when he isn't there

I don't think you are comparing apples with apples. The idea he can't be "right up there" because he doesn't pull up stats like Rodri, whilst playing for West Ham. I don't think it is a fair assessment. I remember Bellingham saying that it was Rice who allowed him to play the way he did in the WC, specifically the Senegal game. Some players just make others better

 

No I stand by that he is average (relative to better players of course) on the ball and struggles to control a game. But he is still a very good player and excellent physically and at reading the play to win the ball back. He would also be missed in a side if he was missing.

It isn't based on stats either. I just feel like being unable to control a game compares unfavourably to players who play the same position at the top level and would mean in the very few elite teams he wouldnt necessarily be a starter. But of course he can do some things extremely well and would get in the vast, vast majority of teams.

[Dreams of 1995]

56 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

No I stand by that he is average (relative to better players of course) on the ball and struggles to control a game. But he is still a very good player and excellent physically and at reading the play to win the ball back. He would also be missed in a side if he was missing.

It isn't based on stats either. I just feel like being unable to control a game compares unfavourably to players who play the same position at the top level and would mean in the very few elite teams he wouldnt necessarily be a starter. But of course he can do some things extremely well and would get in the vast, vast majority of teams.

Well we are at an impasse 

There’s nothing to suggest he struggles to control a game: his defensive work is amongst the best in the league and his successful passes / touches are in the top 10 too. These are all stats that suggest he is in control of the game 

You obviously watch a lot more of West Ham than me to be able to ignore all of that 

I will wager he will go to a top club, start every week, and continue to be a starting CM for England for the next 5 years though. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Well we are at an impasse 

There’s nothing to suggest he struggles to control a game: his defensive work is amongst the best in the league and his successful passes / touches are in the top 10 too. These are all stats that suggest he is in control of the game 

You obviously watch a lot more of West Ham than me to be able to ignore all of that 

I will wager he will go to a top club, start every week, and continue to be a starting CM for England for the next 5 years though. 

I agree with your last comment.

[chaddyrovers]

12 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

I think the could but they won't. Liverpool need multiple additions in centre midfield and therefore need to split their budget accordingly. If their squad was near perfect and they only needed 1, maybe 2 summer signings I think they'd be in for him. 

They've already brought in MacAllister for 35-45 million and will need at least two more. It makes a fee of almost 100m for Rice unaffordable. 

I think McAllister is a fantastic signing and wasn't the fee at £55 mil which I think it is a bargain actually

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Well we are at an impasse 

There’s nothing to suggest he struggles to control a game: his defensive work is amongst the best in the league and his successful passes / touches are in the top 10 too. These are all stats that suggest he is in control of the game 

You obviously watch a lot more of West Ham than me to be able to ignore all of that 

I will wager he will go to a top club, start every week, and continue to be a starting CM for England for the next 5 years though. 

totally agree and that why some of biggest clubs in football want him Like Bayern, Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea. 

 

[roverandout]

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

No I stand by that he is average (relative to better players of course) on the ball and struggles to control a game. But he is still a very good player and excellent physically and at reading the play to win the ball back. He would also be missed in a side if he was missing.

It isn't based on stats either. I just feel like being unable to control a game compares unfavourably to players who play the same position at the top level and would mean in the very few elite teams he wouldnt necessarily be a starter. But of course he can do some things extremely well and would get in the vast, vast majority of teams.

Rice's stats are In the top 10 midfielders in every department in the epl