Championship - 22-23

[longsiders1882]

3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It is abundantly clear that the parachute money from the Premier League allows teams to be very competitive after relegation

And you received parachute payments didn't you? And they were at a level commensurate with average wages etc at the time.

We've been relegated, are carrying some salaries at a level we wouldn't have at this level had it not been for the PL TV money. We've also had to pay off debt, not football debt but debt as a result of a leveraged buyout. In a strange way we were helped by the club allowing so many contracts to expire, made the wage bill manageable.

But if the mood is to stop paying them then they should do so - and probably stop the solidarity payments at the same time. But clubs will forward forecast based upon what revenues hey are expecting. You would simply need to pick a season and say any team relegated from this point will not receive payments. I suspect you'd need to give a 3 years window for existing clubs but could start for newly promoted teams almost immediately. Solidarity payments could also be phased out over the same timeframe. The downside, it would make it even more challenging for smaller clubs going up to compete as any players they want to sign would be restricted in both quantity and quality as they might have to meet their obligations with compartively tiny incomes the following seasons

7 minutes ago, Silas said:

Read this as a physical threat first time round.

Thought you'd maybe been on the New Year buckfast. 🤣

😁Haha, I'm not big enough to threaten anyone 

[Silas]

4 hours ago, Blue blood said:

One positive of late is that we have beaten weaker/out of form teams. So with the fixtures we have over the next few games (Rotherham and Blackpool I think?) we could really give ourselves a boost and ease the pressure for later on in the season. 

On the 5 match form table on Google, our opponents in the next 4 league matches have won 1 solitary game. 

1 win out of 20, a 5% win ratio. 

And that was Bristol City beating Rotherham. 

I know the Championship doesn't work out like that, but if we can't kick on during the next month with that fixture list, we don't deserve to be in the playoff picture. 

Even a few draws to keep the points tally ticking over will help. 

We have to eliminate the soft losses where heads drop and we get turned over too easily. 

By the time we come up against a resurgent Watford and West Brom around Valentine's week we'll know if JDT and this squad are contenders or not. 

[Dreams of 1995]

33 minutes ago, longsiders1882 said:

And you received parachute payments didn't you? And they were at a level commensurate with average wages etc at the time.

We've been relegated, are carrying some salaries at a level we wouldn't have at this level had it not been for the PL TV money. We've also had to pay off debt, not football debt but debt as a result of a leveraged buyout. In a strange way we were helped by the club allowing so many contracts to expire, made the wage bill manageable.

But if the mood is to stop paying them then they should do so - and probably stop the solidarity payments at the same time. But clubs will forward forecast based upon what revenues hey are expecting. You would simply need to pick a season and say any team relegated from this point will not receive payments. I suspect you'd need to give a 3 years window for existing clubs but could start for newly promoted teams almost immediately. Solidarity payments could also be phased out over the same timeframe. The downside, it would make it even more challenging for smaller clubs going up to compete as any players they want to sign would be restricted in both quantity and quality as they might have to meet their obligations with compartively tiny incomes the following seasons

 

We did. Prior to the latest TV pay deal that is. It was not commensurate with the average wages. It is as a % of the broadcast revenue deal at the time.

When we were relegated in 2012 the TV deal was worth £1.2bn

The TV deal is now +£5bn

Since 2013 it has been above £3bn

And since 2015 the winners of the Championship have all been relegated clubs from the PL (except Leeds in 2019). That is because the parachute money, determined by PL broadcast revenue, has consistently outstripped growth in Championship clubs' finances. Our deal was incomparable with the deal relegated Clubs get now. Which is unfortunate, but that's the way of the world

It has always happened in reality - WBA used to be the yoyo club. In part because they bring down quality players. But anybody denying the trend since 2015 is lying to themselves: it almost at the point of a middle league between the Prem and the Championship in which clubs like Watford, Norwich, Fulham, Bournemouth and WBA now operate in financially. It will also include Sheff Utd, Burnley, Leeds, Forest soon

This "PL2" is by design. Absolutely it is. The trick is for clubs to get into it ASAP because the chances for clubs like Barnsley or Luton etc are all becoming less and less thanks to big money awarded for failure

 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Silas said:

On the 5 match form table on Google, our opponents in the next 4 league matches have won 1 solitary game. 

1 win out of 20, a 5% win ratio.

Putting those wrongs to right is our speciality. 😆

[longsiders1882]

22 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We did. Prior to the latest TV pay deal that is. It was not commensurate with the average wages. It is as a % of the broadcast revenue deal at the time.

When we were relegated in 2012 the TV deal was worth £1.2bn

The TV deal is now +£5bn

Since 2013 it has been above £3bn

But the size of the deal has always dictated the salary expectations. Not disputing it has improved but the payments have always skewed things but less so than wealthy benefactors like Jack Walker and todays sovereign wealth funds.

25 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

This "PL2" is by design. Absolutely it is. The trick is for clubs to get into it ASAP because the chances for clubs like Barnsley or Luton etc are all becoming less and less thanks to big money awarded for failure

You think this is going to raise its ugly head again? I see it from the money mans point of view but as a fan I like the EFL structure. It isn't perfect but it's blooming entertaining. That said I do agree, if it is happening (and I can easily buy into your reasoning) we need to make sure we are part of it.

 

38 minutes ago, Silas said:

By the time we come up against a resurgent Watford and West Brom around Valentine's week we'll know if JDT and this squad are contenders or not. 

Your Feb looks especially difficult.

[roversfan99]

Watching the last round of Championship highlights and the pitches elsewhere are far better than here. Even at Blackpool it is 100x better. Crazy the lengths some go to when defending our underfunded cabbage patch.

[Dreams of 1995]

20 minutes ago, longsiders1882 said:

But the size of the deal has always dictated the salary expectations. Not disputing it has improved but the payments have always skewed things but less so than wealthy benefactors like Jack Walker and todays sovereign wealth funds.

You think this is going to raise its ugly head again? I see it from the money mans point of view but as a fan I like the EFL structure. It isn't perfect but it's blooming entertaining. That said I do agree, if it is happening (and I can easily buy into your reasoning) we need to make sure we are part of it.

I don't think the first point is true. Championship wages have grown, but nowhere near to the level the PL revenue deals and therefore PL wages have. I believe you were paying players upwards of 80k p/w. You are still paying players 40k+this season

https://www.capology.com/uk/championship/salaries/

Take a look at the link above, you'll see relegated clubs are still paying double, if not triple, what long-standing clubs in the Championship are. It is uncompetitive

Was throwing in Jack there just to bait? Benefactors still hugely distort competition in the PL. Man City being the prime example. Bournemouth only got promoted because of their benefactor - they then paid the fine for breaking the rules. So did Leicester. In the PL almost all clubs have wealthy benefactors - Aston Villa managed to spend £100m when in the Championship. Newcastle is the next one.

The problem is that this wealth is now distorting competition in the league below, and not just due to quality of players coming down but in sustained financial benefits for just entering the 'promised' land

There's far more influence on the owners' wealth in modern day football than there has ever been. I'm sorry but that's just fact. I know it doesn't go with the Burnley/PNE rhetoric of Uncle Jack bought the league but the numbers say differently

In no other business do we reward failure with such huge levels of cash: it flies in the face of our free market economy. At the moment Burnley are benefitting from it, so I suspect no matter your reasoned approach you won't see it that way, but at the moment you are operating in the 'middle league' that has a significant advantage over everybody else. If you didn't come in the top 2 this season you would have been an outlier when comparing relegated clubs' final league position since the 2013 TV pay deal

Let's put it this way: we could be promoted this season, and make absolutely no attempt to survive, and still be rewarded with a whopper pay deal spread over 4 years (1 in PL, 3 in parachute payments) and all of a sudden we would enter the next 3 seasons in the Championship with a huge advantage over others. Norwich have been doing it for years, as have Watford.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[longsiders1882]

18 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Was throwing in Jack there just to bait? Benefactors still hugely distort competition in the PL. Man City being the prime example. Bournemouth only got promoted because of their benefactor - they then paid the fine for breaking the rules. So did Leicester. In the PL almost all clubs have wealthy benefactors - Aston Villa managed to spend £100m when in the Championship. Newcastle is the next one.

I mentioned the Soverign Wealth Funds as well - but Jack was also part of the distortion, perhaps the first one to invest so much so quickly. No reason he shouldn't but it sure distorted the competition in your favour - including to get you promoted.

19 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

In no other business do we reward failure with such huge levels of cash: it flies in the face of our free market economy. At the moment Burnley are benefitting from it, so I suspect no matter your reasoned approach you won't see it that way, but at the moment you are operating in the 'middle league' that has a significant advantage over everybody else. If you didn't come in the top 2 this season you would have been an outlier when comparing relegated clubs' final league position

Following your logic Watford and Norwich should be top 2 as well - both receive parachutes and both have more money than us and both kept the majority of their PL squads intact. Money is undoubtedly a big factor - so is management, of the team and club.  We signed players in the main no one else in this league wanted or had heard of like Benson, Zaroury, Vitinho, Churlinov. All signed for about what we sold McNeill for. It isn't about me accepting it - we all knew the rules of the competition when we entered it, we earned our promotions and the financial rewards of a sustainmed stay in the top flight

19 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Let's put it this way: we could be promoted this season, and make absolutely no attempt to survive, and still be rewarded with a whopper pay deal spread over 4 years (1 in PL, 3 in parachute payments) and all of a sudden we would enter the next 3 seasons in the Championship with a huge advantage over others. Norwich have been doing it for years, as have Watford.

Actually you couldn't - it would be 3 years as teams relegated after 1 season now only get 2 years parachute payments 😁

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, longsiders1882 said:

I mentioned the Soverign Wealth Funds as well - but Jack was also part of the distortion, perhaps the first one to invest so much so quickly. No reason he shouldn't but it sure distorted the competition in your favour - including to get you promoted.

Following your logic Watford and Norwich should be top 2 as well - both receive parachutes and both have more money than us and both kept the majority of their PL squads intact. Money is undoubtedly a big factor - so is management, of the team and club.  We signed players in the main no one else in this league wanted or had heard of like Benson, Zaroury, Vitinho, Churlinov. All signed for about what we sold McNeill for. It isn't about me accepting it - we all knew the rules of the competition when we entered it, we earned our promotions and the financial rewards of a sustainmed stay in the top flight

Actually you couldn't - it would be 3 years as teams relegated after 1 season now only get 2 years parachute payments 😁

He did invest a lot, but that's been happening ever since. And it's not really what we are talking about here, although it is a cause of why English football is in the state it is. The point is that clubs are now rewarded for failure, and whilst benefactors are still distorting the top of the Premier League, the current rules are now distorting competition in the second league. Of which you are benefitting

The facts remain that relegated clubs now have an overwhelming advantage in the pursuit of promotion. The standings of the league through the last decade show that. It has always been this way, but the gap is widening significantly due to financial payouts

Your payroll is 3x our and is only beaten by the clubs you mention: Watford and Norwich

Nobody is denying that management is a factor - put a dummy in charge and the money is insignificant but this started with you saying it was salty for saying you bought the league. Yet, by your own fans' definition of Rovers "buying" the league in 95, you are doing. It isn't being salty, it is just reality

It is likely that one of Norwich or Watford will get promoted as well. They will do so by spending in January while other clubs can't. There will always be exceptions to the rule but that isn't what we are talking about. Burnley, along with Norwich, Watford and Sheffield United all have an advantage over other clubs. It doesn't always work out (Huddersfield, Stoke) but that doesn't mean the advantage isnt real

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[longsiders1882]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Yet, by your own fans' definition of Rovers "buying" the league in 95

Not sure this is right - the definition of buying the league for me comes from spending money your were gifted rather than earned - so City for example. I have no issue with teams outspending us because they earn more then we do, twas ever thus.

 

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Your payroll is 3x our and is only beaten by the clubs you mention: Watford and Norwich

That site you quoted is guessing at best - and is clearly wrong on many wages. For example Cork signed a new contract in summer and his wage will have dropped. Same with Rodriguez. They show Sander Berge as earning less than Brownhill - they paid 22 million for him, he's earning more than any Burnley player. Rhian Brewster is another, we looked at him when he went to Sheff Utd, we were in the PL but couldn't afford his wage demands. So whilst I accept we will have a higher wage bill than you, largely because of those PL wages we couldn't shift off the books, I don't accept it is what that site claims. But regardless, it is funded by our trading activities. Our owners take money out of the club not put it in.

[longsiders1882]

Wagner to Norwich. His first spell at Huddersfield aside - and even that went South - what else has he achieved? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64161503

Wouldn't have been top of my list - then again I doubt I'd have sacked Farke.

[Dreams of 1995]

8 minutes ago, longsiders1882 said:

Not sure this is right - the definition of buying the league for me comes from spending money your were gifted rather than earned - so City for example. I have no issue with teams outspending us because they earn more then we do, twas ever thus.

 

That site you quoted is guessing at best - and is clearly wrong on many wages. For example Cork signed a new contract in summer and his wage will have dropped. Same with Rodriguez. They show Sander Berge as earning less than Brownhill - they paid 22 million for him, he's earning more than any Burnley player. Rhian Brewster is another, we looked at him when he went to Sheff Utd, we were in the PL but couldn't afford his wage demands. So whilst I accept we will have a higher wage bill than you, largely because of those PL wages we couldn't shift off the books, I don't accept it is what that site claims. But regardless, it is funded by our trading activities. Our owners take money out of the club not put it in.

 

It doesn't matter where the money has come from. The rules at the time allowed that. Anybody could have done it, and in the ensuing seasons they did without success

Newcastle broke the spending record for 3 years in a row and never won the PL

And you didn't earn it - you got relegated. It's a financial system that hamstrings other clubs' competitiveness. Everybody else is restricted by FFP on their spending, whilst relegated clubs are given huge pay days because without it there wouldn't be a lot of clubs who could afford to compete with the financial firepower of the "Top 6"

So your buying of the league is even more grotesque. We won the big boy league thanks a homegrown gazillionaire - you are buying the second division thanks to a system that will allow you to nibble at the crumbs the big lads leave you

Fair play though, at least you'll win it but there will be an almighty * against it and that goes for every club in receipt of parachute money whilst FFP is in operation in the lower leagues

[longsiders1882]

13 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

And you didn't earn it - you got relegated.

But we did. It is a business contract we entered into that comes with agreed payments based upon certain outcomes. We earned it by virtue of reaching the PL - and that option remains available to all 24 Championship Clubs. It doesn't stop other clubs doing what they want to do - indeed Our promotion in 13/14 was achieved without parachute payments. You benefited in exactly the same way for years in PL and post relegation. I am willing to bet you never returned a penny of the money you got from the PL or complained about it at the time. 

It galls you now because it is us getting it - and using it well. Fair enough, I absolutely felt the same back in the day before we benefited. No issue admitting to being an absolute hypocrite.  It won't stop me enjoying this season immensely whether we get promoted or not. If we are Champions there will be no "*" in the record books - just as there isn't if I look up the 94/95 season - and I will celebrate it like I did our more recent Championship promotions.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, longsiders1882 said:

But we did. It is a business contract we entered into that comes with agreed payments based upon certain outcomes. We earned it by virtue of reaching the PL - and that option remains available to all 24 Championship Clubs. It doesn't stop other clubs doing what they want to do - indeed Our promotion in 13/14 was achieved without parachute payments. You benefited in exactly the same way for years in PL and post relegation. I am willing to bet you never returned a penny of the money you got from the PL or complained about it at the time. 

It galls you now because it is us getting it - and using it well. Fair enough, I absolutely felt the same back in the day before we benefited. No issue admitting to being an absolute hypocrite.  It won't stop me enjoying this season immensely whether we get promoted or not. If we are Champions there will be no "*" in the record books - just as there isn't if I look up the 94/95 season - and I will celebrate it like I did our more recent Championship promotions.

No you didn’t. You were relegated from that league 

And the rules were very different back then. 
Financial Fair Play was introduced in 2011. This also coincided with the 2013 TV pay deal. As a result it has meant the competition has been hamstrung: FFP has restricted Championship clubs from being able to compete with any club in receipt of parachute payments. That’s just a fact. And this issue is now coming to light by looking at the disparity in league standings 

Last year a typical championship club would be in receipt of about £8m in solidarity payments. Whilst a newly relegated club would receive about £40m, followed by £35m and then followed by £20m. That’s on the old deals money - there’s been a new one late 22

You will make over 5 times what a typical Championship club will make. This system is arrived so “small” clubs can produce a Competitive team at premier league level if promoted. In effect, this financial system is created to allow the Big 6 to spend big and be ultra competitive 

And you are benefitting from it 

It has never been as unequal as it has been in the last 5/6 years, and the results are showing. You can either accept it or just lie to yourself 

Our two situations are not comparable. But you are right, we did not spend ours so wise, but the disparity in wealth between relegated clubs then and relegated clubs now was smaller. The double whammy is the FFP - clubs can’t spend like you even if they wanted to, simply because you are in receipt of money you “earned” through failing in the last league you were in 

I wouldn’t have as big an issue with parachute money if they removed FFP. Currently there’s about 18/19 teams playing by different rules to the rest. The spending power is heavily restricted, and as a result there’s been a pretty consistent churn of the same teams in and out of the Championship / Prem, and ultimately it all comes down to FFP/Parachute payments  

My issue isn’t solely with Burnley - but you are where you are because you can spend £25m (through sales) but also because you can afford a salary over three times the typical championship club. They are the facts. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[longsiders1882]

The first 15 years of the PL they didn’t share a penny of the TV money with the football league - prior to this tv money was split 50% for the 1st division, 25% for division 2 and 12.5 for each of 3 and 4.

This dried up over night, league teams had to survive with significantly reduced incomes. None of the PL clubs at the time - you included - gave a toss about those you were ‘leaving behind’. Now we’ve managed to claw our way from near extinction to the top division (briefly) and have completely rebuilt the club you think we should feel bad about it or feel it’s unfair? 

Creating the PL has brought great things to our football. It has also poisoned it but please don’t try to convince me that if you were still in it you would believe it was unfair or be crying out for Burnley to be given a bigger slice of the pie. As for me, we won’t be around it forever, we are not a big city club so I’ll just have to enjoy it whilst we can.

[1874]

The parachute payments were introduced to allow clubs to offset the cost of being relegated. FFP was introduced to stop teams spending beyond their means. Both systems have failed. Numerous clubs that have been promoted would have failed FFP had they not been promoted. Parachute payments should be restricted to one year to stop clubs using it as a springboard. It's not Burnley's fault for taking advantage of the current system

[Dreams of 1995]

28 minutes ago, longsiders1882 said:

The first 15 years of the PL they didn’t share a penny of the TV money with the football league - prior to this tv money was split 50% for the 1st division, 25% for division 2 and 12.5 for each of 3 and 4.

This dried up over night, league teams had to survive with significantly reduced incomes. None of the PL clubs at the time - you included - gave a toss about those you were ‘leaving behind’. Now we’ve managed to claw our way from near extinction to the top division (briefly) and have completely rebuilt the club you think we should feel bad about it or feel it’s unfair? 

Creating the PL has brought great things to our football. It has also poisoned it but please don’t try to convince me that if you were still in it you would believe it was unfair or be crying out for Burnley to be given a bigger slice of the pie. As for me, we won’t be around it forever, we are not a big city club so I’ll just have to enjoy it whilst we can.

Not once have I said you should feel bad 

But you are here saying it is salty to say you have brought the league. In fact you are denying it. When clearly there are huge financial disparities between you and about 21 other teams 

In this current financial system you are a club that has a massive advantage over others, and you are out spending others, and so the reality is you are doing what we did and taking advantage of the rules of the time and “buying” the league
Except we bought the league that counts 

I’m not asking for a bigger slice of the pie or asking you to feel sorry for us. I’m simply asking you to admit you are part of a few contingent of clubs who are currently reaping the financial rewards of a rigged system and are using it to buy success in this league 

You said we did it with Jacks millions and now you are doing it with Liverpools, Utds, Chelsea’s, Tottenham’s and City’s millions 

As football fans we should all feel it is unfair but if it is working for you so be it. But, and I think this is a difference between us, I would have the balls to admit the advantage we had

But congratulations on buying the second best league in England. If the shoe fits and all that 🤷‍♂️ 

[Dreams of 1995]

25 minutes ago, 1874 said:

The parachute payments were introduced to allow clubs to offset the cost of being relegated. FFP was introduced to stop teams spending beyond their means. Both systems have failed. Numerous clubs that have been promoted would have failed FFP had they not been promoted. Parachute payments should be restricted to one year to stop clubs using it as a springboard. It's not Burnley's fault for taking advantage of the current system

And when working in conjunction with each other it has given relegated teams an advantage not known in sports before 

That is: your competitors must spend what their revenue allows, but we will offset your losses for failure to the tune of +FIVE times the average revenue of other clubs in this league

Therefore clubs are given three years of inflated revenues to spend and gamble on promotion back to the PL and so the cycle begins again

And history is telling us that’s what is happening. A merry go round of a handful of clubs 

People will look back at this period of football and laugh. It’s a ridiculous set of rules 

[Upside Down]

11 hours ago, longsiders1882 said:

 

Lol, it isn’t a routine. It’s a mix of self preservation as it is always the hope that kills you and being respectful that this is a Rovers not a Clarets forum. If I saw you in the street and you pushed me I’d say it would take a catastrophic turn in fortunes for us not to finish top 2 and our race now should really be for the title. The caveat always the same, what are the January player and managerial movements.

I agree that for Burnley not to get promoted at this stage would take some absolute madness to occur. You should be expecting promotion, you've paid enough for it after all 😉

[DavidBrent]

Also this vitriol over Burnley and their wages.

You must have been fuming at the side who spent £8 million on Jordan Rhodes and gave £40k a week deals to Danny Murphy and Etuhu a few years ago now.

Remind me again who that was?

[sympatheticclaret]

7 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

This "PL2" is by design. Absolutely it is. The trick is for clubs to get into it ASAP because the chances for clubs like Barnsley or Luton etc are all becoming less and less thanks to big money awarded for failure

 

I for one, can have little sympathy for Luton, as they were one of the original signatories to the formation of the Premier League, and have yet to kick a ball in said division, as they were relegated at the end of the 1991-92 season, and have never returned to the top flight ....

Your starter for 10 - Who is the other Club for whom this is also the case ? 

[Dreams of 1995]

The cavalry has arrived 

 

1 minute ago, DavidBrent said:

Also this vitriol over Burnley and their wages.

You must have been fuming at the side who spent £8 million on Jordan Rhodes and gave £40k a week deals to Danny Murphy and Etuhu a few years ago now.

Remind me again who that was?

Mismanagement. You won’t find any of us denying it 

But again, the differences in parachute payments between then and now compared to the finances of the championship are huge 

And we admit it. It wasn’t a few years ago, it was 12 years 

1 minute ago, sympatheticclaret said:

I for one, can have little sympathy for Luton, as they were one of the original signatories to the formation of the Premier League, and have yet to kick a ball in said division, as they were relegated at the end of the 1991-92 season, and have never returned to the top flight ....

Your starter for 10 - Who is the other Club for whom this is also the case ? 

I’m gonna say Oldham 

[1874]

The same Jordon Rhodes who was sold to Boro for 10.5 million

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

31 minutes ago, DavidBrent said:

Also this vitriol over Burnley and their wages.

You must have been fuming at the side who spent £8 million on Jordan Rhodes and gave £40k a week deals to Danny Murphy and Etuhu a few years ago now.

Remind me again who that was?

Bringing a knife to a gunfight as usual.

[Mattyblue]

Notts County.