v Bristol City (h) - 3/9/22

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

How would you have set up and who would have gone left?  

I was happy at the start of the game at the lineup. But in the second half when we were 2-0 down I’d have either gone 3 at the back and pushed Edun / Dolan as left and right midfielders.  Or I’d have put Edun left and chanced BB centrally. Anything but the status quo we had watched.

If the day after the transfer window ends, and with 4 of our summer signings in the team or on the bench, we can’t change something system-wise then we’ve got problems,

Edited September 4, 2022 by Hasta

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I was happy at the start of the game at the lineup. But in the second half when we were 2-0 down I’d have either gone 3 at the back and pushed Eden / Dolan as left and right midfielders.  Or I’d have put Eden left and chanced BB centrally. Anything but the status quo we had watched.

If the day after the transfer window ends, and with 4 of our summer signings in the team or on the bench, we can’t change something system-wise then we’ve got problems,

Dolan isn't wing back for started and they would have got in more than they did. 

So you would take Hirst off then? 

at half time when Buckley and Dolan were going through their warmup, I thought that Adam Wharton and Dack would go off. That the 2 players I would taken off at half time. Move Buckley to right back and Travis back into Midfield with Dolan on the right and Hedges into the 10 role. When Vale came on, I said I would took off Adam Wharton and gone front 2 with BBD and Dolan wide. Given their back 5 more problems and press higher. 

For me, the 4-2-3-1 formation wasn't the problem but defensively we could live with their front 3 or their wing backs going forward. Plenty of movement by their front 3. I would go with the same formation at Wigan

I think it would be very different game had we scored first tho

[roversfan99]

27 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I hope they do get time and patience from all sections of fans. Fans need to understand what the project is and how we want to move forward on the subject. 

I would think that valuations are done by our footballing staff and our CEO/Pasha. If you listened to JDT, he thought he was worth much more 20 million pounds. I would imagine that GB, JDT, SP and SW all speak to Venkys and give their opinions. I think some clubs who actually bid for BBD don't understand how our owners operate tbh. 

Would you have sold for the offers we received from Nice or Sevilla that was low as 8.4 million? 

Would you have sold him on the day with very little for a replacement and teams coming in so late even after scouting him for weeks? 

Cos it's work in progress with this period being a transition season to new tactics, new players being part and new head coach who hasn't managed here before. As GB and JDT this is project, and the same message has come from our head coach every time whether we won or lose. 

I think we will finish in top 10 this season which I would be happy with in JDT's first season

 

Yes the tempo was too slow in our play, and I made that point last night in my summary. 

Brereton's strength is playing from the left and using movement inside from left to right or shooting after coming inside. 

How would you have set up and who would have gone left?  

You can keep banging on about patience and of course things will take time but it cannot be a line trotted out to dismiss all criticism. People will expect to see signs of development and asking for patience will not see people overlook when mistakes are made by the manager. 

Take next weekend, many Rovers fans will go to Wigan and spend good money, many with a few beers inside them too. If we play shit again and lose a 5th game in 6, I suspect there will be some boos. Obviously there won't be calls for his head or anything silly, but people spend good money and time to follow Rovers so I am sure you agree that people expect at least to see signs of progression.

On Brereton, I refuse to accept that we couldn't get more than £8.4m but even so, we wouldn't loan Brereton for a season for that amount.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

was launch it going to work against 3 big centre back? the way was getting between the lines and between their centre backs with clever runs and movement. 

You don’t know till you try it. If I had a quid for every time I’ve seen good centre halves misjudge an ale house ball down the middle I’d be rich. 

[Hasta]

44 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Dolan isn't wing back for started and they would have got in more than they did. 

 

44 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

That the 2 players I would taken off at half time. Move Buckley to right back

Buckley isn't a right back. They'd have got more than they did.

Which is obviously subjective but that's what you just threw at my changes. 

Either way, the whole performance was abject and didn't improve at all. The fact we still scored twice makes me wonder what would have happened had we been able to have a spell of sustained pressure.

 

 

[TimmyJimmy]

Really disgruntled by yesterday's performance so have waited 24 hours to be a little cooler and more reflective.

As we knew way back our squad is too thin, not necessarily numbers wise, though I guess it is, but more experience wise and physical stature wise.

A couple of injuries to key players and we're done. Great for the future these 'prospects' but in the here and now not so much.

We need other attacking ideas than long diagonal balls from right back to BBD on the left wing.

Travis I like but as evidenced yesterday he's not a right back, didn't play well there.

We need to start completing some passes,  right now we defend, play out, lose the ball  defend again.

We're earmarked to face the high press every week, its obviously the way to beat us. Sure it leaves space in behind but if you can't pass into that space (see above point) then you're going to have a bad time.

I saw Hedges do his ankle in the warm up so personally I'd have played Vale. Hedges struggled  which is a shame as I think he's becoming a real asset.

Agree with comments about Wharton going into his shell after the booking (it was a soft one ref) but at that age you worry about letting the team down by being sent off I guess.

Bristol play exactly like JDT says he wants us to play. In that case from what I saw we're miles off, yet we managed to squeeze 2 goals out the game, so go figure, some glimmer of hope I suppose.

That game told me there's tons of growing and work to be done but I don't think we're relegation fodder but then again we don't have a snowballs of being in the top six.

It will be fun watching the team develop but probably best to park any aspirations of great things this year.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

You can keep banging on about patience and of course things will take time but it cannot be a line trotted out to dismiss all criticism. People will expect to see signs of development and asking for patience will not see people overlook when mistakes are made by the manager. 

Take next weekend, many Rovers fans will go to Wigan and spend good money, many with a few beers inside them too. If we play shit again and lose a 5th game in 6, I suspect there will be some boos. Obviously there won't be calls for his head or anything silly, but people spend good money and time to follow Rovers so I am sure you agree that people expect at least to see signs of progression.

I will continue to post about patience and time for JDT, especially when fans aren't given that and some unwarranted criticism. 

I can see signs of progression under JDT(if you can't then that down to yourself) but its work in progress and has JDT has said what it will be until the team fully understand how he wants to play, and we keep learn and developing under him 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

On Brereton, I refuse to accept that we couldn't get more than £8.4m but even so, we wouldn't loan Brereton for a season for that amount.

We had 3 offers for BBD and 2 bids of 8.4 mil and one from Fulham which was 6 mil plus 4 mil in add on, so I don't see why you won't accept that considering you have no other info to dispute this. No one was paying anymore for him, so Rovers was right to keep him considering the 4 factors I posted to yourself last week

50 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You don’t know till you try it. If I had a quid for every time I’ve seen good centre halves misjudge an ale house ball down the middle I’d be rich. 

You don't try time after time when you don't have the team for that tactic. You play to your strengths. 

 

45 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Buckley isn't a right back. They'd have got more than they did.

Which is obviously subjective but that's what you just threw at my changes. 

Either way, the whole performance was abject and didn't improve at all. The fact we still scored twice makes me wonder what would have happened had we been able to have a spell of sustained pressure.

Buckley can play right back and I would have put him there instead of Travis at half time. 

I disagree that the whole performance was abject, and we didn't improve at all. We look better in the second half and we have a couple good moments in the first half. Had we taken those 3 chances the game and result might have been very different. 

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I will continue to post about patience and time for JDT, especially when fans aren't given that and some unwarranted criticism. 

I can see signs of progression under JDT(if you can't then that down to yourself) but its work in progress and has JDT has said what it will be until the team fully understand how he wants to play, and we keep learn and developing under him 

We had 3 offers for BBD and 2 bids of 8.4 mil and one from Fulham which was 6 mil plus 4 mil in add on, so I don't see why you won't accept that considering you have no other info to dispute this. No one was paying anymore for him, so Rovers was right to keep him considering the 4 factors I posted to yourself last week

You don't try time after time when you don't have the team for that tactic. You play to your strengths. 

 

Buckley can play right back and I would have put him there instead of Travis at half time. 

I disagree that the whole performance was abject, and we didn't improve at all. We look better in the second half and we have a couple good moments in the first half. Had we taken those 3 chances the game and result might have been very different. 

Are any of the below criticisms valid?

Travis shouldn't have played at right back.

Travis should have been moved at the latest by half time.

The subs at half time were wrong.

The midfield 2 were so weak and easily beaten, and it wasn't changed.

Having Vale involved over Markanday was wrong, the former couldn't score in non league last season.

Mola should have featured considering that he could have freed Carter to go at right back. Or even Phillips.

You can keep trotting out the cliches, for what its worth 12 points in 8 games is IMO a reasonable return. But I have not seen any big signs of his supposed style of play and I would argue that our points haul slightly flatters us as our general performance level has been poor.

There is occasional pressing but certainly nothing sustained.

The front 4 is NOT at all fluid.

We don't create many good chances.

We have issues defensively.

I haven't got a clue what his favourite 11 would be.

Subs have often been needed earlier than would be ideal if the original gameplan had worked, and have certainly not always helped us.

Set piece routines have been terrible.

I don't see which of the above is unwarranted, but calls for patience aside, supporters will want to see signs of progression. If they don't and if our poor recent form persists, then patience will deplete.

[Atko's Engine]

On 03/09/2022 at 19:22, glen9mullan said:

Can have no complaints today, tactically out mastered by Pearson and Bristol out played us in every department.

Scoreline flattered us.

I'm still quite concerned about us tactically. We were good mid-week, but today were put right in our place.

I agree with the first two lines. 

However isn't the the last line just entirely indicative of the Championship? Reading got stuffed by Rotherham, but despite that are sitting pretty in 3rd.  Norwich lost their first 3 or something but are now 2nd.

I'm not saying everything is hunky dory or that Tomasson is a tactical genius; imo he got the subs wrong at HT, he should've removed Morton & moved Travis into midfield with Buckley going to RB, as we missed Travis' bite in midfield, and got Dack playing further forward as he was too deep 1st half.

But as I've said before, there's too much overreaction to each defeat. We're weeks into his 3 year tenure, we've won 4 of 8, won 2 cup games, & most of that was with a very thin squad. We'd all have taken this on the day of his appointment, yes?

He's got a lot to learn about the Championship, about the club, the players, support staff. I'm sure he knows that more than anyone & imo he shows the attitude, aptitude & intelligence to develop & adapt.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

49 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I will continue to post about patience and time for JDT, especially when fans aren't given that and some unwarranted criticism. 

I can see signs of progression under JDT(if you can't then that down to yourself) but its work in progress and has JDT has said what it will be until the team fully understand how he wants to play, and we keep learn and developing under him 

We had 3 offers for BBD and 2 bids of 8.4 mil and one from Fulham which was 6 mil plus 4 mil in add on, so I don't see why you won't accept that considering you have no other info to dispute this. No one was paying anymore for him, so Rovers was right to keep him considering the 4 factors I posted to yourself last week

You don't try time after time when you don't have the team for that tactic. You play to your strengths. 

 

Buckley can play right back and I would have put him there instead of Travis at half time. 

I disagree that the whole performance was abject, and we didn't improve at all. We look better in the second half and we have a couple good moments in the first half. Had we taken those 3 chances the game and result might have been very different. 

Nobody is saying we should long ball it all the time. The odd one can catch out even the best centres halves. I’ve seen it happen with Rovers centre halves often enough. Glencirbigli away anybody ?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Boroblue]

I’ve waited to post after yesterday but we appear tactically inept. That midfield should have been shored up after 20 mins without that we can’t grab hold of the game defensively or going foward. Travis is in midfield this right back nonsense needs to stop.

It was overall poor and to a degree worse than Sheff which I’d thought I’d never say. Defending well in this league is a first priority more than press more than possession and we aren’t doing that.

Monday when Thomason arrives at the ground he needs to think how do I stop teams scoring after that we have a chance. Don’t deal with that and we have problems 

 

[chaddyrovers]

48 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Are any of the below criticisms valid?

Travis shouldn't have played at right back.

Travis should have been moved at the latest by half time.

He had a very good game at Blackpool, I wouldn't have moved him before yesterday based on performance of that game, 

Yes I would have moved Travis in midfield at Half time cos of Adam Wharton been booked so early on meant that he couldn't make a tackle during the game or would be taking a huge risk if he miss time one. Moving Buckley to right back. 

48 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The subs at half time were wrong.

The midfield 2 were so weak and easily beaten, and it wasn't changed.

Having Vale involved over Markanday was wrong, the former couldn't score in non league last season.

Mola should have featured considering that he could have freed Carter to go at right back. Or even Phillips.

Taking Dack was the right decision. 

I have already explained about the midfield in a previous post. 

Having Vale involved wasn't wrong and Why you are so obsessed with beating Jack Vale with his 10-game spell at Halifax when he has shown in performances this season why he should be part of this first team squad! 

I wouldn't brought Mola on in this game at that time. 

48 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You can keep trotting out the cliches, for what its worth 12 points in 8 games is IMO a reasonable return. But I have not seen any big signs of his supposed style of play and I would argue that our points haul slightly flatters us as our general performance level has been poor.

There is occasional pressing but certainly nothing sustained.

The front 4 is NOT at all fluid.

We don't create many good chances.

We have issues defensively.

I haven't got a clue what his favourite 11 would be.

Subs have often been needed earlier than would be ideal if the original gameplan had worked, and have certainly not always helped us.

Set piece routines have been terrible.

I don't see which of the above is unwarranted, but calls for patience aside, supporters will want to see signs of progression. If they don't and if our poor recent form persists, then patience will deplete.

I will continue to keep trotting out the cliches and if you have a problem then you are more than free to move on from the post. 

If you haven't seen any big signs of the style of play then that's down to yourself I would say. 

We created 5 or 6 good chances on Saturday, Dack and Hedges with good chances in the first few minutes, Hirst later that first half, Dolan and BBD goals and Jack Vale had a chance he should have done miles better with. 

I wouldn't say that you don't often have a favourite 11 these days cos it's a squad game and you need a squad especially at this level. 

We have kept 3 clean sheets in 8 games, but our biggest problem is when a team either press us high against us or has lots of movements in my opinion. 

Agreed on the set pieces. 

As I have said more than one to yourself, some fans can see signs of progression if you can't fine but plenty of us can. 

[chaddyrovers]

39 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Nobody is saying we should long ball it all the time. The odd one can catch out even the best centres halves. I’ve seen it happen with Rovers centre halves often enough. Glencirbigli away anybody ?

Look at the point we were talking about. When we upped our tempo, we played much better. Higher tempo and we causes problems. 

Like I said, playing a long ball down the side is ok and Hirst has a couple of good moment when the ball when played down the sides like the first few minutes and just before he was subbed. Playing a long ball near their centre backs is a waste in my opinion

[booth]

23 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

I’ve waited to post after yesterday but we appear tactically inept. That midfield should have been shored up after 20 mins without that we can’t grab hold of the game defensively or going foward. Travis is in midfield this right back nonsense needs to stop.

It was overall poor and to a degree worse than Sheff which I’d thought I’d never say. Defending well in this league is a first priority more than press more than possession and we aren’t doing that.

Monday when Thomason arrives at the ground he needs to think how do I stop teams scoring after that we have a chance. Don’t deal with that and we have problems 

 

It does but it's driven by necessity not design isn't it?

[Hasta]

9 minutes ago, booth said:

It does but it's driven by necessity not design isn't it?

Not really.

Carter has already played there under JDT. I guarantee he knows how to defend that situation as a full back better for the first goal than Travis did

Despite what Chaddy says, there were enough warning signs at Blackpool about Travis. The Match Centre ratings from Bloomfield Rd showed that.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Hasta

[roversfan99]

There were definitely options aside from Travis playing there. Mola was on the bench, a centre back that we signed under Tomasson which could have allowed Carter to move to right back. I get that perhaps it isnt ideal so soon after signing to play him but he trained from the same point as Hirst so it doesnt really wash with me that he couldnt and had Mowbray mentioned the settling in rhetoric he would have been lynched.

Even beyond that, Phillips was on the bench too.

[booth]

Philips and Carter would have still struggled. Travis would have been better in the middle yes but we've three top centre halves in this league out. Find me a team in any league that wouldn't concede goals if they lost three of their first team defenders and had Pickering at fullback.

The one thing I'd question is why isn't Pike featuring when we're struggling for a fullback, is he on loan?

And why the **** didn't we get a replacement for Pickering who has been targetted by every oppo manager who we've played against.

[booth]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There were definitely options aside from Travis playing there. Mola was on the bench, a centre back that we signed under Tomasson which could have allowed Carter to move to right back. I get that perhaps it isnt ideal so soon after signing to play him but he trained from the same point as Hirst so it doesnt really wash with me that he couldnt and had Mowbray mentioned the settling in rhetoric he would have been lynched.

Even beyond that, Phillips was on the bench too.

I don't think we've any hope till Wharton and Brittain are back, whenever that will be. I think Wharton is back soon, hopefully against Wigan, but last I read there's no timescale given on Brittain's recovery.

[Hasta]

8 minutes ago, booth said:

Philips and Carter would have still struggled. 

Maybe. Maybe not.

But with 3 defenders available who could have tried full back (including 1 that has already covered there previously), Travis wasn’t picked there out of necessity. That’s the point. 
 

It happened. It doesn’t bother me. We’ve learnt he can seriously struggle defensively. If we now ended up with him playing more games there, instead of exploring other options,  that would annoy me,

Edited September 4, 2022 by Hasta

[joey_big_nose]

Missed the game yesterday so watched the full game back for my sins.

We weren't that bad, but always looked like losing. We cut them open a few times early and late in the game. Scored a couple. Could have easily taken the lead in the first 10 mins. Yet I'd never say we looked like even getting a draw.

Once Bristol City settled they were always comfortable. Always had an extra man in midfield, always had an overlap. That we were systemically not able to cope was obvious from around the 20th minute. Really City should have scored two or three first half. They were totally in charge.

People have called out the passing around the back as being frustrating. But I don't think we intended to play that way, there just wasn't a pass on. City would regularly have five or six players strung across midfield with little we could do to find a man through them.

That we didn't either start with three at the back or change to it later in the game I am going to put down to Scott Wharton still not being fit and Mola being totally new so we hadn't had time to bed in the approach. If that's not the case really unacceptable in my view as we are getting systemically done by teams in 343/352 is very clear and to just soldier on is ridiculous.

That said once you take that we were tactically crowded out out of the equation I think there are some reasons for optimism. Hirst looks lively and technically solid, didn't get too much of a sense about how good he is in the air though. I like Hyam a lot. Carter I am not so sure about but did well. Dolan had a much better game, scored and an assist.

Lots of negatives obviously but the one thing I would pick out is Travis is not a positionally disciplined player and asking him to play right back / right wing back is asking for trouble, especially when he has zero cover.  Also generally across the side when we did create openings our final ball even when quite simple was really poor until the last third of the match.

We have a talented squad which I think can push on and be a force in the league but we need to get the tactics right.

I'm going to Wigan and I'm really hoping to see us setup in a way that addresses our challenges.

Edited September 4, 2022 by joey_big_nose

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Hasta said:

Despite what Chaddy says, there were enough warning signs at Blackpool about Travis. The Match Centre ratings from Bloomfield Rd showed that.

We will did have agree to disagree cos we aren't going to agree 

Edited September 4, 2022 by chaddyrovers

[47er]

10 hours ago, J*B said:

Armstrong was absolutely nothing to do with GB, to be fair. 

Although to be fair, we got 15M for him and that helped covered the cost of a global pandemic. As far as Waggott’s leadership, Armstrong is a major success point. 

We got £15M for him but never saw any of it. If Brereton hadn't come good we would have ben in real strife. No guarantee at all that money for Brereton would be used to strengthen the squad  let alone a hypothetical £20M for Philips.

Its all at the whim of the owners.

[47er]

9 hours ago, BankEnd Rover said:

Next week I worry because Wigan have experience and toughness in their team.

I worry because we always seem to lose to Wigan, whatever their team contains.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Surprised that more hasn’t been made of Dack getting the hook at half time. 

I remain convinced there is a battle of wills going on that will only have one winner. Before the game I watched Dacky say he’d never been fitter; after the game I heard the manager say he’s trying to get fit.

Personally I think he got hooked for coming too deep looking to get a touch. That’s Dack First, not Team First. Under JDT, if you aren’t getting enough touches then I suspect the answer is you aren’t making enough good runs to make yourself a passing option. Coming deep to tip tap around with the centre halves just makes things worse.

As a new manager, he has to bend Dack to his will and be seen to do so. Question is, is Dacky for bending?

[briansol]

23 hours ago, Boroblue said:

I’ve waited to post after yesterday but we appear tactically inept. That midfield should have been shored up after 20 mins without that we can’t grab hold of the game defensively or going foward. Travis is in midfield this right back nonsense needs to stop.

It was overall poor and to a degree worse than Sheff which I’d thought I’d never say. Defending well in this league is a first priority more than press more than possession and we aren’t doing that.

Monday when Thomason arrives at the ground he needs to think how do I stop teams scoring after that we have a chance. Don’t deal with that and we have problems 

 

Totally agree. It was a tactical failure. I think the formation with fluent 4, is a bit hit or miss. It left huge gaps against a Bristol City that overloaded centrally against Wharton and Morton who was outnumbered. The fluency requires a huge tactical understanding which the players were not able to implement. We were both too narrow and too wide at times which Bristol City were able to utilize. 

I'll give credit to Dolan, who showed end product with his goal and assist. Got his eyes up from the ball and made the right decisions, something he has been lacking, but maybe are improving?