v Luton Town (a) - 17/9/22

[Atko's Engine]

3 hours ago, M_B said:

I don't know for a fact that Szmodics was 100% fit, but surely that isn't the point. He was fit enough to turn out for the under 21's, if the squad is decimated, then he would have played for the first team. Same goes for Wharton, Tomasson wouldn't have had the luxury of making the choice. 

Injuries don't come into it, they're part and parcel of getting through the season, we're now talking about loaning Phillips out to give him games. 

I just don't subscribe to the theory that Tomasson inherited a decimated squad. 

Young, light on numbers maybe, but when he signs 6 new players and only 2 are starting games, then it doesn't really add up does it? 

That's a bit sneaky, as Brittain has been injured for the last few matches & would clearly have started yesterday but for that. Likewise Szmodics would've had more game time but for his concussion.  Hyam & Morton have been trusted (admittedly with varying degrees of success in Morton's case), there's only really Mola who has failed to figure yet & Hirst, both of whom were very late window signings.

Clearly the squad is stronger now than it was on July 30th, but surely there can be no argument that the lost of 12 squad players (inc 5 of the preferred first 11) equates to its decimation??

Phillips can't be loaned out until Jan; I'm sure that won't happen without us being numerically secure if he does, and clearly there's a strong argument for it to be in his & the club's best interests, given the successes of Scott W & Carter.

[Gav]

3 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

That's a bit sneaky, as Brittain has been injured for the last few matches & would clearly have started yesterday but for that. Likewise Szmodics would've had more game time but for his concussion.  Hyam & Morton have been trusted (admittedly with varying degrees of success in Morton's case), there's only really Mola who has failed to figure yet & Hirst, both of whom were very late window signings.

Clearly the squad is stronger now than it was on July 30th, but surely there can be no argument that the lost of 12 squad players (inc 5 of the preferred first 11) equates to its decimation??

Phillips can't be loaned out until Jan; I'm sure that won't happen without us being numerically secure if he does, and clearly there's a strong argument for it to be in his & the club's best interests, given the successes of Scott W & Carter.

Spot on.

[Sweaty Gussets]

5 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

Clearly the squad is stronger now than it was on July 30th, but surely there can be no argument that the lost of 12 squad players (inc 5 of the preferred first 11) equates to its decimation??

Decimation? Good grief!! Only Nyambe, Lenihan, Rothwell, JPVH and Khadra contributed much of anything. The rest of the 11 hardly played. And a turnover of 5 first teamers is a pretty standard summer in the Championship. lots of teams will have a had a similar turnover of 1st teamers, and some teams a few more. 

And we've replaced every one of the '5' who actually contributed last season.  Player-for-player the squad is no weaker than last year, with more options in various positions. 

Let's bring a modicum of context and even-handedness to the debate, and not resort to wildly exaggerated terms like 'decimation'  😉

[Atko's Engine]

2 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

If you think that's contradictory and/or in any way a comparable situation, then we really are going to have to agree to disagree!

Well 4 others liked my post so I'm not alone, but I'm happy to agree with all them & disagree with you! 

😁

Seriously, I'm all for good, rational debate and can accept others have opinions & won't agree with me, that's life right? It doesn't mean I won't try to persuade them to see the error of their ways though!

Who knows what the future holds? I hope it's bright but it's never black & white.

Football, & Rovers in particular, is my escapism so I want it to be as positive an experience as possible. If that means preferring a glass to be half full than half empty, as 5 league wins & 5 defeats alluded to, then so be it.

And that's from a card-carrying Riversider of 35+ years!!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

18 minutes ago, den said:

I was there too. What year would that have been? 
 

edit, they were promoted to the top division in 1962. It was either that season or the next. My guess is ‘62. Wasn’t Jimmy Melia in that game?

Their first game at Ewood was early in the 62-63. We won that one 1-0 courtesy of a Bryan Douglas goal.

The next season, 63-64, it was the opening game and it was chaos all around the ground with lots of shops getting raided and robbed. They won 2-1. Mike Harrison scoring our goal.

The game I was referring to was early in the 64-65 season. We won 3-2 after being 2-0 down with goals from Byrom, Harrison pen, McEvoy.

Rovers

Else

Newton, Joyce.

Clayton, England, McGrath

Ferguson, McEvoy, Byrom, Douglas, Harrison.

Att 26, 865.

[Sweaty Gussets]

2 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

Football, & Rovers in particular, is my escapism so I want it to be as positive an experience as possible. If that means preferring a glass to be half full than half empty, as 5 league wins & 5 defeats alluded to, then so be it.

And that's from a card-carrying Riversider of 35+ years!!

If you've spent 35 years in the Riverside and you can still remain positive then you probably actually are fun at parties! 

You and your mates on the Riverside with your guitars! 🙂 

[Guest]

I hadn't clocked Dacky having had a TV career in addition to the reality bollux.

 

[Atko's Engine]

51 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

If you've spent 35 years in the Riverside and you can still remain positive then you probably actually are fun at parties! 

You and your mates on the Riverside with your guitars! 🙂 

🤣 I try not to let the buggers get me down!

(You could probably develop a Brereton-ton-ton song from that clip...)

[booth]

4 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Yes, he said that Hirst was GB's and JDT's first choice. You're welcome. 

Or he was first choice and you're just wrong? 🤷‍♂️

 

If you can't see that you're being sold hyperbole then good luck to you.

[booth]

2 hours ago, SuperBrfc said:

Absolutely. Broughton can say whatever he likes.

But there's no way a manager, who was a top striker in his day, who wanted Colak, who wanted Berget, who may have been interested in Birmancevic, would have looked at a non entity of a striker like Hirst and gone "yeah, that's the signing for me".

It's a signing that reflects the person behind it.

It reflects that some people on here are either not the full shilling, or just enjoying JDT's failings even if they aren't completely his. Especially when it was widely reported that we did want other players but couldn't get them over the line. Szmodics certainly wasn't his first choice.

[chaddyrovers]

7 hours ago, Hasta said:

So why put him on the bench? What circumstance is he going to come on? 

Dack showed against Blackpool he still is very effective and yet he played 45 more minutes and then has not featured since. JDT is expressing stubbornness here. 

 

JDT explained that if he changes formation to 4-2-3-1 then Dack might have come on unless he was going to come on for Hedges and play on the right. 

6 hours ago, booth said:

Hirst doesn't look anywhere near the standard right now. Maybe it is a case of match fitness but for me there doesn't seem to be much there, not that that's helped by the rest of the team.

Ross Stewart could be a good signing. Mowbray hates strikers so could happen.

He only played about 96 minutes of football since joining us and before joining us he barely features for Leicester. I think there is plenty to work with from what I have seen so far. 

Stewart is out of contract this summer so might be cheap signing come January or even next summer on a free transfer

3 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

The obvious move for me would have been to take one of Dolan or Hedges off and gone 352. We were getting nothing out of the wide forwards and getting nothing out of midfield, so changing that balance seemed the right thing to try.

                     Kaminski 

         Hyam.   Ayala.  Wharton

Brittain.  Travis.   Morton.   Pickering 

                         Dack

                Hirst.         Brereton

Still think we would have had a problem with Ayala making us sit too deep as well though....

Dolan had already gone off by that time. 

[booth]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

He only played about 96 minutes of football since joining us and before joining us he barely features for Leicester. I think there is plenty to work with from what I have seen so far.

That's why I said right now. If the January transfer window taught us anything it was that we need more goals. We don't have the luxury of waiting for someone to get good, we need as close to the finished article as possible.

I like the idea of bringing in young players and developing them but Hirst should have been signed alongside someone with more experience/goals under his belt at this level. Big risk to rely on BBD's goals.

[Sparks Rover]

16 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

He only played about 96 minutes of football since joining us and before joining us he barely features for Leicester. I think there is plenty to work with from what I have seen so far. 

You said the very same thing about Vale😩  is he not part of your plans anymore a few games in?

[jim mk2]

Hirst is 23 ....... he's not a promising youngster. If he'd been a real prospect, he'd have been a first team regular somewhere a few years ago. He could be a late developer of course, but that's unlikely, and the likelihood he just isn't very good at all. I don't know why we've been signed him - watching him at Luton yesterday he just doesn't have the strength or technique to play as a Championship striker

[SuperBrfc]

7 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

You said the very same thing about Vale😩  is he not part of your plans anymore a few games in?

Exactly. It was the same with Butterworth and McBride too.

Butterworth, McBride, Vale, Hirst. The fact that this four were or are being talked about as being good enough for this fantastic Football Club...it's ridiculous, it really is. The standards are gone, Sparks.

[bazza]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Their first game at Ewood was early in the 62-63. We won that one 1-0 courtesy of a Bryan Douglas goal.

The next season, 63-64, it was the opening game and it was chaos all around the ground with lots of shops getting raided and robbed. They won 2-1. Mike Harrison scoring our goal.

The game I was referring to was early in the 64-65 season. We won 3-2 after being 2-0 down with goals from Byrom, Harrison pen, McEvoy.

Rovers

Else

Newton, Joyce.

Clayton, England, McGrath

Ferguson, McEvoy, Byrom, Douglas, Harrison.

Att 26, 865.

Since we are talking nostalgia and not Luton away, here's my bit. That team was very good apart from the weak link, Joyce. We would have been better with a better left back.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

9 minutes ago, bazza said:

Since we are talking nostalgia and not Luton away, here's my bit. That team was very good apart from the weak link, Joyce. We would have been better with a better left back.

He was all we could afford. It’s just a shame Jack wasn’t around then, we could have won a trophy with a bit of investment. We had maybe 9 really good players and then that was it. Any injuries and we were struggling.

It makes me smile when we’re talking about transfer windows today. Back then a close season would go by and we wouldn’t sign anybody, not one single player !

I think we’ve said all that needs to be said about the Luton game. We didn’t turn up, is there anything else to be said?

Edited September 18, 2022 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

JDT explained that if he changes formation to 4-2-3-1 then Dack might have come on unless he was going to come on for Hedges and play on the right. 

if we aren’t going to change formation after 70 minutes of that shite when are we going to change formation?  Therefore, why put him on the bench?

 

 

[roverstdt]

I truly think it is a sad time when you read some of the comments on this board around expectation and demands based off our history and where we perceive ourselves deserving to be in the premier league. 
 

perosnally I do not give a dam about the EPL because I actually enjoy the championship and the competitiveness it present compare fo other leagues in the world. Do I want us to go up of course I but comparing JDT comment and attitude to Mowbray is absolutely ridiculous. First of all these are two completely different projects. Yes I used the word project something we shouldn’t be afraid of using. Mowbray job was to rebuild and stabilise and like or not he did exactly that. JDT job develop young players and aim for the top end of the championship. From an average age perspective we have the youngest squad in the league. Not a rocket scientist but what has traditionally transpired with young squads is inconsistency. Furthermore to say he wasn’t backed is also rubbish as we are one of the few clubs thst have a positive net spend. Is JDT expected to be first and win every single game this season no. I myself totally understand the frustration I was at the Reading game and the Luton it is a horror, but it isn’t something that cannot be fixed. The team to me looks strong, the issue is the space between midfield and defence and lack of protection the midfield offer to the defence and control to slow it down. 
 

give the lad some time to say they are worrying signs there Is normal in any dam season, i would actually be worried if I was Boro! But hey ho we are 7th I would take that right now given the games we have a played. 
 

Last comment I read was about JDT not setting expectation, this is of course to protect the young team and remove pressure off them. Of course the club has targets imagine telling a 17 year old Philips bro it is first or nothing now go have a good game. We need to protect these young players and give them time. Diaz is an example, Arma another Buckley another we are on to something with these academy players let’s give them a shot and see where it takes us 

[Sparks Rover]

4 minutes ago, roverstdt said:

Of course the club has targets imagine telling a 17 year old Philips bro it is first or nothing now go have a good game. 

17 year olds shouldn't be so integral to our side.  The others on the other hand should be looking to win every game.  Stop making excuses.

[roverstdt]

4 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

17 year olds shouldn't be so integral to our side.  The others on the other hand should be looking to win every game.  Stop making excuses.

What excuses?! I just said the squad needs protecting and you are saying that is an excuse. There could be an eclipse tomorrow and if the moon didn’t cover whole sun I am sure you would spend the day arguing it should have done better 🤣. You picked one sentence from my whole text? Do I need to go through the squad age as to each player who has played? You are acting like we have a mature team filled of mid 20’s players. 
Not excuse but mentally You are dealing with humans they are going to make errors and they are going to develop, are we going to be the finished product after 3 months with a new manager no. Not excuse just basic logical thinking that I imagine most people with common sense would relatively agree with 

[Sparks Rover]

25 minutes ago, roverstdt said:

What excuses?! I just said the squad needs protecting and you are saying that is an excuse. There could be an eclipse tomorrow and if the moon didn’t cover whole sun I am sure you would spend the day arguing it should have done better 🤣. You picked one sentence from my whole text? Do I need to go through the squad age as to each player who has played? You are acting like we have a mature team filled of mid 20’s players. 
Not excuse but mentally You are dealing with humans they are going to make errors and they are going to develop, are we going to be the finished product after 3 months with a new manager no. Not excuse just basic logical thinking that I imagine most people with common sense would relatively agree with 

 

You said we shouldn't be saying to 17 year olds it's win at all costs...(first or nothing)  that's an academy attitude.   I say anyone starting a Championship game it is definitely win at all costs.

I think the way we got bullied over at Luton against a bang average team suggests we need some different characters for that type of game

Edited September 18, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[Atko's Engine]

5 hours ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Decimation? Good grief!! Only Nyambe, Lenihan, Rothwell, JPVH and Khadra contributed much of anything. The rest of the 11 hardly played. And a turnover of 5 first teamers is a pretty standard summer in the Championship. lots of teams will have a had a similar turnover of 1st teamers, and some teams a few more. 

5 hours ago, Gav said:

Spot on.

Haha, this message board in a nutshell!!

JPVH was player of the year, Lenihan club captain, Nyambe our only RB. Rothwell was subject to a £3m bid with 5 months left on his contract, would walk into most teams at this level. Khadra now on loan at the division's leaders. That's quite a quintet to lose & replace, especially for no income received from them.

When you consider that when he arrived we had what, 15 players leftover in the first team squad that finished 8th the previous season, JDT has done as well as could be expected to have us in 7th 10 games in. He knows there are improvements to make, let's give him the time, patience & support to do so.

[SuperBrfc]

1 hour ago, roverstdt said:

I truly think it is a sad time when you read some of the comments on this board around expectation and demands based off our history and where we perceive ourselves deserving to be in the premier league. 
 

perosnally I do not give a dam about the EPL because I actually enjoy the championship and the competitiveness it present compare fo other leagues in the world.
 

Hang on a minute. Wanting the club to get back to what it was is sad now, is it?

The bit in bold says enough for me. You're not alone, as those at the club seemingly don't give a damn about the Premier League either.

There has to be some sort of weird comfort in mediocrity and playing the victim. Poor Rovers, can't compete with the giants in the Championship, poor young lambs, can't put pressure on them, give 'em a chance. These nasty fans wanting to win are just bullies.

Remember what Mowbray said upon leaving? He hoped that the next manager wasn't a bully who just wants to win all the time. Since when is wanting to win a form of bullying? Is that what football has become these days?

This shit project we have isn't conducive to winning football matches and promotion. It's all about player development, giving minutes to Academy players. That's why there's anger from a few of us on here. This isn't a case of 'first or nothing bro', that's not the demand. They need to show us they are serious about going up, and at the moment they aren't and are about to waste a good few years more of our time.

I'm just sick of the attitude of writing seasons off, going on journeys that lead to nowhere and it just being brushed off as "oh well, young lads, they need time".

[M_B]

12 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

That's a bit sneaky, as Brittain has been injured for the last few matches & would clearly have started yesterday but for that. Likewise Szmodics would've had more game time but for his concussion.  Hyam & Morton have been trusted (admittedly with varying degrees of success in Morton's case), there's only really Mola who has failed to figure yet & Hirst, both of whom were very late window signings.

Clearly the squad is stronger now than it was on July 30th, but surely there can be no argument that the lost of 12 squad players (inc 5 of the preferred first 11) equates to its decimation??

Phillips can't be loaned out until Jan; I'm sure that won't happen without us being numerically secure if he does, and clearly there's a strong argument for it to be in his & the club's best interests, given the successes of Scott W & Carter.

I'm quite happy how it's going, when it's gone well,  there have been some really good signs and we've played some exciting football. 

I'm just not having "decimated" when players who are clearly able to play, are being overlooked for ones who were originally here. 

You're giving excuses for the new signings not playing, Brittain is valid although he did come on against Luton. 

Szmodics played on Saturday for the under 21's. 

Mola is a new recruit, but came on against Watford. 

Hirst likewise on Saturday. 

Wharton was left out, as was Markanday,as was Dack. 

I'm not unhappy with Tomasson, I just don't agree that a manager with a "decimated" squad would have the luxury of voluntarily leaving out the above players, especially his main signing. Then, whilst leaving out the above players, managed to play each one of the starting 11 in his preferred position (Carter is arguable). 

That isn't evidence of a decimated squad. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by M_B