v The Dingles (a) - 13/11/2022

[speedies gonna get ya.]

If you'd have offered me 3rd place in table now I'd have snapped your hand off. The jury is very much still out on JDT though. Some bizarre tactics and selections at times but I will go along for now and see how it unfolds.

What I can't forgive is the total bottle job capitulation to our bitter rivals. Forgetting selection, shape and tactics, it was the whole tone, before during and after that has infuriated me. Where was the passion. It appears he has taken the calm heads just another game approach. Kompany on the other hand had then well up for it. They were hungrier and more aggressive than us. They wanted it more. That is nothing to do with ability, experience or parachute payments. And that is unforgivable.

[Miller11]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I agree with @rog of the rovers that we need to keep some perspective and we need to look at the season so far in a 21 games block. I think we have overachieved this season and no way did I think we would be 3rd in the league after 21 games and going into the world cup break. I think Jon Dahl Tomasson has been a breath of fresh air since his appointment, He understand the club and wants to take this club back to the PL and keep us there and not be yo-yo club like some other clubs have been. He has been very good with bringing young players through. He is clearly happy with the coaching staff he has here despite what people think on here. His and Gregg Broughton appointments is a new era for the club, and they have explained what the plan is and how they will implement the plan. I think people having a go for JDT for not understanding the importance of the game or he needs to be sack or replace is unwarranted and unnecessary in my opinion.  

I am not angry or mad about yesterday performance (I am disappointed but that's it). I am proud and passionate Rovers fan and I have some great memories from supporting this great club over the last 32 years and those memories will always been there and they will always outweigh days like yesterday.  

 

I would say that defensive wise in the first half we were good and limited them to 2 chances all first half. In the attacking sense we were poor apart from one moment that Brittain were he had simple ball through to Gallagher who would have been one on one with keeper, and I think he would score. 

Well, some people like myself haven't taken this one game in isolation but have taken the spell of 21 games together as I think we should do. Yes I know and fully aware of how important this rivalry before someone says I don't understand it. 

Those days have gone, and football has moved on now from these types of players. 

It was foul anywhere on the pitch sadly the ref bottled like a number of other decisions yesterday. 

At the start of the season you predicted Burnley would finish 24th in the table. You made this extraordinary prediction based on blind hatred for them, you were completely unable and unwilling to give them the remotest bit of credit or apply any logical analysis.

All of a sudden our first game against them in 5 years is just another game? You aren’t really bothered we have lost by the biggest margin against them since 1963? Or that they have won their last 5 games against us for the first time in a hundred years?

I know you understand the importance of the Derby, which makes your current (predictable) stance seem really disingenuous. 

We know exactly how you feel about Tomasson. I’d go as far to say that the vast majority of fans are really pleased with his tenure so far overall. The difference is nobody else thinks he’s infallible.

You’d have been bigging up a 3-0 win against Burnley as one of the clubs greatest ever results, gloating like mad and revelling in it. You can’t have it both ways.

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Miller11 said:

At the start of the season you predicted Burnley would finish 24th in the table. You made this extraordinary prediction based on blind hatred for them, you were completely unable and unwilling to give them the remotest bit of credit or apply any logical analysis.

All of a sudden our first game against them in 5 years is just another game? You aren’t really bothered we have lost by the biggest margin against them since 1963? Or that they have won their last 5 games against us for the first time in a hundred years?

I know you understand the importance of the Derby, which makes your current (predictable) stance seem really disingenuous. 

We know exactly how you feel about Tomasson. I’d go as far to say that the vast majority of fans are really pleased with his tenure so far overall. The difference is nobody else thinks he’s infallible.

You’d have been bigging up a 3-0 win against Burnley as one of the clubs greatest ever results, gloating like mad and revelling in it. You can’t have it both ways.

Especially when even if you try and get past the raw emotion a day on. There are a number of terrible decisions that Tomasson made which directly led to the defeat. 

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, USABlue said:

I hope GB calls JDT in his office to explain that shit show.  Very Mowbrayesque.  He said we would defend from the front, head towards goal when we get the balland harry them when they havg>

I imagine they're singing from the same hymn sheet - they know the squad is drastically lacking quality and depth.

They've both inherited the mess that Mowbray left and have only had half a transfer window (and no PL parachute payments!) to fix it. 

[Mercer]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Those days have gone, and football has moved on now from these types of players. 

 

Don't think you are quite right there.  Agree we don't see players like a rampaging Souness, Keane or Batty etc but it is still not a game for the fairies!  All successful teams have players who can make a hard tackle and play with a  physicality and aggression - they can 'mix it' when necessary and other teams are aware of it. We have no one of that ilk - the only thing we can offer is petulance from Travis who would have been eaten alive by the likes of Batty and Aaron Mokoena (remember him!?).  

Bottom line is we need some feckin aggression.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

39 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Although I remember listening on the radio and the bitter disappointment in my house, I was a little too young to understand the significance of it. 

For me losing the penalties at Bramall Lane in 93 was the worst I've felt coming off a ground. I genuinely believed we were going to Wembley one way or another that year. I think that taught me a lot about disappointment.

The difference yesterday was I knew exactly how it would pan out. I posted it on page 2 here. I knew full well JDT would play that way and fully expected what we got. I went in hope rather than anticipation, hope that JDT would actually try and avoid is playing out as it did.  As @jim mk2says, it's hardly a shock based on  many of our away performances this season.

I think those who believed we would win are the most disappointed. Nothing wrong with that. I think I'd braced myself for it.

 

I’m like you, I didn’t expect a win. However I expected us to make a game of it and I expected us to have more than one shot at goal !

[chaddyrovers]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You are specifically in the Burnley thread within the following hours of a quite frankly embarrassing battering at the home of our local rivals, when it is still raw, not as much as the place to eulogise over the project.

People aren't saying that the defeat was bad enough that it means that 3rd isn't good enough, but as ever and as posted, elsewhere, there is no accountability. The manager messed up and if you are keen to avoid such criticism then is this the thread for you?

We didn't lay a glove on them, 3 nil flattered us. Blame the ref all you want, we had one shot and they were sadly far better.

Cos, I look the entire situation and not to just isolated to one specific game and the entire 21 games block which has us 3rd in the league, and great position to kick on to get promotion. JDT will get the players on the training field and working on them, improving the players understand what he wants and how he wants to play even more. 

The ref was weak for a ref of PL standards and what a big job Howard Webb has got to improve the standards and quality of them. 

I have said it is disappointed to see that performance, but it is one game and shouldn't overruled what has been a very good season so far in terms of performance. 

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Garrett isn't up to it at this present moment. 

Garrett is up to it and was our best midfielder out of the 4 that played yesterday. I will say I am not surprised by your comment on him or any young player we play cos it always the same story will you. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Bravery comes in several forms out on the pitch. Berkovic wasn’t a tackler but you could give him the ball in any situation and he’d make good use of it. Two players up his backside, he’d still show for the ball. That sort of bravery is sadly lacking in this team.

[Hasta]

13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Well, some people like myself haven't taken this one game in isolation but have taken the spell of 21 games together as I think we should do. Yes I know and fully aware of how important this rivalry before someone says I don't understand it. 

 

It was foul anywhere on the pitch sadly the ref bottled like a number of other decisions yesterday. 

I'm not taking the game in isolation either Chaddy. I'm looking at the performances over the whole season, especially games such as Wigan and Luton away, and asking "Why do we play it out from the back when it isn't working". If that was a one-off event I'd just shrug my shoulders, but it has happened it loads of games and yet JDT doesn't learn. The worry is it will happen again, and again, and again. In some games, especially when not getting closed down, it works for us. But when it clearly isn't working like in the first half why not play a different way. You even said it yourself after the game there was too much of it. And yet you and I know if we are a goal down against Preston and are getting outplayed it will be more of the same.

I've just braved the highlights for the first time during my lunch. Our 1 shot in the whole match comes from the centre half launching it 50 yard up field and then we win the second ball. If our only shot is created that way, and we only did it about 3 times in the whole game, what does that tell you? 

As for the foul, the ball is already in the back of the net long before he makes contact with Kaminsky. 

 

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Garrett was better than Travis and Morton yesterday, Buckley did nothing, Dack similar. 

Garrett made a couple of tackles and did play a good ball to BBD in the second half. what did the rest do? nothing at all

Was Adam Wharton injury? 

Garrett was shite on the ball, especially first half. The one exception was the ball out to Brereton. I wouldn't put him better or worse than the other two in midfield, but Wharton or Buckley would surely have been better on the ball.

[Miller11]

20 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Those days have gone, and football has moved on now from these types of players. 

Burnley haven’t. One of “these types of players” bullied our entire back line, left half our team frightened to death of going near him, scored two goals, won man of the match, and generally took the piss all afternoon.

[Hasta]

6 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I imagine they're singing from the same hymn sheet - they know the squad is drastically lacking quality and depth.

They've both inherited the mess that Mowbray left and have only had half a transfer window (and no PL parachute payments!) to fix it. 

If that hymn sheet is continue to pass it around pointlessly at the back, even when we are getting outplayed and our only chance has come from our solitary long ball, then GB is a stubborn idiot as well.

Unless you can offer any explanation why this tactic is persevered with all season when it has consistently led to us being unable to create chances, let alone a single goal, whenever we have gone behind in a league game away from home?

Edited November 14, 2022 by Hasta

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Cos, I look the entire situation and not to just isolated to one specific game and the entire 21 games block which has us 3rd in the league, and great position to kick on to get promotion. JDT will get the players on the training field and working on them, improving the players understand what he wants and how he wants to play even more. 

The ref was weak for a ref of PL standards and what a big job Howard Webb has got to improve the standards and quality of them. 

I have said it is disappointed to see that performance, but it is one game and shouldn't overruled what has been a very good season so far in terms of performance. 

Garrett is up to it and was our best midfielder out of the 4 that played yesterday. I will say I am not surprised by your comment on him or any young player we play cos it always the same story will you. 

But this thread IS about the bloody match in isolation! Do you agree/disagree with my comments regarding the mistakes that Tomasson made, or are you simply choosing to ignore them?

Your last comment is a particularly petulant one, even for you. Are you implying that I have no faith in youth graduates/younger players? In which case, someone must have misinformed me as to where Adam Wharton is from, who is a class above Garrett and who I do very highly rate.

[chaddyrovers]

6 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

At the start of the season you predicted Burnley would finish 24th in the table. You made this extraordinary prediction based on blind hatred for them, you were completely unable and unwilling to give them the remotest bit of credit or apply any logical analysis.

Yes I thought they would be chance of relegation given a number of problems there in terms of ownership, financial problems and massive change over in staff and players. Similar to Sunderland 5 years ago. 

6 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

All of a sudden our first game against them in 5 years is just another game? You aren’t really bothered we have lost by the biggest margin against them since 1963? Or that they have won their last 5 games against us for the first time in a hundred years?

I know you understand the importance of the Derby, which makes your current (predictable) stance seem really disingenuous. 

We know exactly how you feel about Tomasson. I’d go as far to say that the vast majority of fans are really pleased with his tenure so far overall. The difference is nobody else thinks he’s infallible.

You’d have been bigging up a 3-0 win against Burnley as one of the clubs greatest ever results, gloating like mad and revelling in it. You can’t have it both ways.

Miller, I not a big record fan of these sort of things to be honest. 

I did outlined yesterday where I felt that JDT did go wrong yesterday in terms of team selection and formation wise

3 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Don't think you are quite right there.  Agree we don't see players like a rampaging Souness, Keane or Batty etc but it is still not a game for the fairies!  All successful teams have players who can make a hard tackle and play with a  physicality and aggression - they can 'mix it' when necessary and other teams are aware of it. We have no one of that ilk - the only thing we can offer is petulance from Travis who would have been eaten alive by the likes of Batty and Aaron Mokoena (remember him!?).  

Bottom line is we need some feckin aggression.

I do remember Aaron Mokenna and he was decent enough defensive midfielder. 

[Boroblue]

Play to your strength that is the mantra of any winner. We have Diaz get it to him. We are organised in defence but we can’t play the ball out from there because in the words of cantona our defenders are water carriers. 
Let’s call a halt to that nonsense it’s absolutely undoing any good work we do.

In relation to yesterday my anger has subsided in embarrassment. If you can win with the skill game  then win the determination one. No matter what slant you put on it yesterday was shameful.

The after match manager comments seem to show a complete lack of understanding the gravity of that debacle. I think it was Tyrone that said if it was snakes and ladders he just gone down the biggest snake. 
Respect is hard to earn and easy to lose and yesterday is hard to stomach it was a nightmare and our leader shoulders a lot of that responsibility no matter how he paints it

[funny-old-game]

Chaddy is just argumentative and thinks he's the fount of all knowledge.

For you own sanity skip past his posts 😉

[J*B]

It's the day after but not much has changed.

I still think Mola starting off the back of one good game against West Ham was a huge error of judgement, whether he is fast or not. I suspect the beating he took will end his career here, unlikely to recover from that.

I still think Garrett starting in central midfield was a huge error of judgement. He's nowhere near ready for that sort of game.

I still think Morton playing in the Szmodics role was disastrous and ultimately cost us the game. Neither Travis or Garrett could hold on to the ball and that played right into their strong central midfields hands.

I still think inverted fullbacks is far too clever for the Championship. I can see the logic when you have Kyle Walker and Cancelo, but not where we are. 

I still think Hedges is absolutely wasted at left wing back. 

I still think Pickering was very hard done to. 

I still think playing out from the back doesn't suit any of our central defenders apart from Wharton.

I still think not having a reasonable option off the bench when Gallagher got injured changed the game. Hirst clearly isn't trusted and Vale has no future here. 

 

Despite a decent set of results in the first half of the season, I'm now looking down at the table rather than up for after the World Cup. We're yet to get any sort of result after conceding first. We're still making the same mistakes we where at the start of the season. We're only 5 points above 7th place. I suspect a classic Mowbray-style breakdown in the New Year, unless we can address all of the below issues in January.

1) Dack has to go. I love him, but if he isn't trusted ahead of Vale then his time here is done and its best for all parties we remember the memories and wish him well. 

2) Hirst must be returned to Leicester. There's perhaps a player in there best of the performances for Pompy, but as yet we haven't seen anything in him and he's being the awful Vale in the pecking order.

3) Vale must be loaned out. He isn't even putting the basic levels of performance in if you ask me. Needs a rocket up his arse, I wonder if he think's he's better than he is. 

4) We must sign a fearsome central midfielder. What happening to Belik(?) at Barnsley? He would be a start. Doesn't have to be a fantastic footballer, an Aaron Mokoena equivalent would be perfect. Minimum 6 ft 2.

5) We must sign a replacement for Hirst and Vale that is a viable option immediately.

6) We must sign a deputy right-wing back and a quick (Khadra-type) winger either on loan with the option to buy or permanently. 

Over to you, Gregg...

[arbitro]

Does anybody think that Burnley weren't hugely better than us in every outfield position? That was the level we were at, second best everywhere including the technical areas. They were quicker, more aggressive, better on the ball, better off the ball, passed better with purpose and had far more intensity. We had our usual pedantic, too many touches style.

[lraC]

24 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Burnley haven’t. One of “these types of players” bullied our entire back line, left half our team frightened to death of going near him, scored two goals, won man of the match, and generally took the piss all afternoon.

If a player comes off the pitch in the derby, who has rattled the supporters, let alone the team, as much as he did, so much so that a mild-mannered supporter would gladly lump him, then he has performed that role.

Burnley had one and we didn't and that tells a story. Furthermore, if that is the case in March, they will pummel us again.

Edited November 14, 2022 by lraC

[chaddyrovers]

16 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I'm not taking the game in isolation either Chaddy. I'm looking at the performances over the whole season, especially games such as Wigan and Luton away, and asking "Why do we play it out from the back when it isn't working". If that was a one-off event I'd just shrug my shoulders, but it has happened it loads of games and yet JDT doesn't learn. The worry is it will happen again, and again, and again. In some games, especially when not getting closed down, it works for us. But when it clearly isn't working like in the first half why not play a different way. You even said it yourself after the game there was too much of it. And yet you and I know if we are a goal down against Preston and are getting outplayed it will be more of the same.

I've just braved the highlights for the first time during my lunch. Our 1 shot in the whole match comes from the centre half launching it 50 yard up field and then we win the second ball. If our only shot is created that way, and we only did it about 3 times in the whole game, what does that tell you? 

As for the foul, the ball is already in the back of the net long before he makes contact with Kaminsky. 

 

Garrett was shite on the ball, especially first half. The one exception was the ball out to Brereton. I wouldn't put him better or worse than the other two in midfield, but Wharton or Buckley would surely have been better on the ball.

The players have to take some responsibly for the decisions to play out from the back cos sometimes yesterday Kaminski didn't, so maybe the questions that need to be asked to the players is why the players decided to play out when they did. That will be done today by JDT and the players in a team meeting over the game. 

It's still a foul for me whether the ball is in the net or not. It was clearly push that didn't need to happen. 

What did Buckley actually do yesterday? I'm a big fan of his but he hasn't been good enough this season. 

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

But this thread IS about the bloody match in isolation! Do you agree/disagree with my comments regarding the mistakes that Tomasson made, or are you simply choosing to ignore them?

Your last comment is a particularly petulant one, even for you. Are you implying that I have no faith in youth graduates/younger players? In which case, someone must have misinformed me as to where Adam Wharton is from, who is a class above Garrett and who I do very highly rate.

I made a number of points yesterday as to where I said I thought JDT went wrong whether it formation selected or team selection. I have replied to your points in JDT, and I even agree with you on some points. 

I think your attitude towards young players in general the same apart from Adam Wharton.  Adam Wharton has been decent/good in some games but also poor in some like Stoke. Garrett was very good against Sunderland for example which you didn't agree with. 

[J*B]

5 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Does anybody think that Burnley weren't hugely better than us in every outfield position? That was the level we were at, second best everywhere including the technical areas. They were quicker, more aggressive, better on the ball, better off the ball, passed better with purpose and had far more intensity. We had our usual pedantic, too many touches style.

Which, to be fair, is to be expected when their team has either been signed for ~25m or last season was playing in the Premier League. The biggest issue for me yesterday was we didn't seemingly show any intent to win the match and certainly didn't do any of our own things well. 

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, J*B said:

Which, to be fair, is to be expected when their team has either been signed for ~25m or last season was playing in the Premier League. The biggest issue for me yesterday was we didn't seemingly show any intent to win the match and certainly didn't do any of our own things well. 

Rotherham gave them a game recently and they have dropped points to teams much lower than us. And we beat Watford recently who were in the Premier League last season. 

[Exiled_Rover]

34 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Burnley haven’t. One of “these types of players” bullied our entire back line, left half our team frightened to death of going near him, scored two goals, won man of the match, and generally took the piss all afternoon.

Barnes should have been red carded, if we're honest. He committed three bookable offences. 

Anyone can 'bully' a team if the referee gives them free license - sadly we never get that, as evidenced by Travis being booked for... I'm not actually sure what. Handing off a player?

[AllRoverAsia]

16 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Does anybody think that Burnley weren't hugely better than us in every outfield position? That was the level we were at, second best everywhere including the technical areas. They were quicker, more aggressive, better on the ball, better off the ball, passed better with purpose and had far more intensity. We had our usual pedantic, too many touches style.

I have just endured watching a full replay.

Burnley were above us in every facet of the game and by some distance.

Not the reason we lost so convincingly but I thought the Ref was appalling. How did he not book Barnes at least once?

There is an interesting passage of play from about the 71 minute. It starts with us having  the ball wide left near the half way line. We then go on to create 2 good chances for Burnley over the next couple of minutes, one resulting in their 2nd goal.

Mola is heavily involved in that fiasco as he was in their 3rd.

It's a bit mean to pick Mola out when many others had poor performance but that lad had a nightmare second half.

Vale may as well have stayed on the bench and we could have played with 10 for all the use he was.

That must rank as one of our worst derby performances in my 70 years.

Edited November 14, 2022 by AllRoverAsia

[Exiled_Rover]

4 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Rotherham gave them a game recently and they have dropped points to teams much lower than us. And we beat Watford recently who were in the Premier League last season. 

Watford were a shambles when we played them - man for man they've got a FAR better squad that we do. Burnley are currently flying with... a far better squad than we have.

Rotherham are equipped to attack Burnley's weaknesses. There's no way Gallagher and Brereton are winning enough headers to make that an option for us - it's just not in their game. 

[CheshireRover]

Nice to see that Dom Hyam has taken yesterday's defeat well enough to piss off to Dubai for some winter sun.