v The Dingles (a) - 13/11/2022

[oneandycrawford]

7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

But, look in the record books. Leeds have never won the Premier League. To pretend otherwise is really re-writing history.

Fair enough Tyrone - I take your point 🙂 

At least no-one is suggesting Hornets winning the Challenge Cup in 22 didn't happen 😉

Maybe I didn't express it in the way I meant - I was trying to say how the name of a competition doesn't make it any more or less valid, at least until the nature of that competition starts to change significantly. Between 91/92 and 92/93 only the name of the competition had changed in any meaningful way as far as I can remember. Once clubs could start spending the money we can see the effect in the numbers a few posts back.

The way the money is distributed at the top levels now, does mean that the Premiership is harder for a non-establishment (i.e. not rich!!) club to break through - only Leicester have managed it since we did. And, as the stats above show, the financial aspect of our achievement has been somewhat overstated to suit other people's narrative (agendas?). Jason Wilcox, Mark Atkins, Tony Gale, Ian Pearce, Robbie Slater, etc. - hardly millionaire players. What Kenny did was target the key areas needed to supply Shearer - and bloody hell did it work!!

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

It wouldn't be a fluke, but it would be a very good achievement. Our revenue may (partially self inflicted) not be top 3 or top 6 in the league but it isn't lower than the "majority" of the league though.

A project in which specific targets are put on playing academy graduates does not really scream an underlying desperation to go up.

Our revenue was 15th in the league last time I checked. 

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Or for us to use our limited resources really wisely… LOL!

Even if we use ours really wisely, it takes those with more to misuse theirs sadly. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 minute ago, J*B said:

Our revenue was 15th in the league last time I checked. 

But I thought Venky's were.......oh, ....

[roversfan99]

But it wouldn't be a fluke in that no team uses its resources totally efficiently. It wouldn't in anyway reduce the scope of the achievement if it meant that for example teams with parachute payments missed out.

[Silas]

10 minutes ago, J*B said:

Money wins in football in 95% of cases. For us to go up it takes clubs with more resources to not use them wisely. 

Was Leicester's title an achievement or a fluke? 

[Oldgregg86]

3 hours ago, booth said:

Let’s count how many things Burnley fans won’t experience in this photo 🫣

Squatting for a photo with there uncles no where to be seen

[J*B]

17 minutes ago, Silas said:

Was Leicester's title an achievement or a fluke? 

A fluke based on a combination of a well organised club taking advantage of a weak league that year. It’s exactly how we will get promoted. 

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

It wouldn't be a fluke, but it would be a very good achievement. Our revenue may (partially self inflicted) not be top 3 or top 6 in the league but it isn't lower than the "majority" of the league though.

A project in which specific targets are put on playing academy graduates does not really scream an underlying desperation to go up.

We pump £3m a year into the Academy, it'd be foolish not to use it.

[AllRoverAsia]

Newcastle spent £24.5 million in just the 95/6 season and finished 2nd, this is more than the total Rovers spent in the 3 seasons 92/3, 93/4 and 94/5 culminating in actually succeeding and getting the title.

It is a superb example of how a real project can be successful in a short period with good people owning and managing and have a target they are really going for and not just passing wind.

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

We pump £3m a year into the Academy, it'd be foolish not to use it.

Of course, but I don't think that requires targets that guarantee graduates x minutes.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, oneandycrawford said:

Fair enough Tyrone - I take your point 🙂 

At least no-one is suggesting Hornets winning the Challenge Cup in 22 didn't happen 😉

Maybe I didn't express it in the way I meant - I was trying to say how the name of a competition doesn't make it any more or less valid, at least until the nature of that competition starts to change significantly. Between 91/92 and 92/93 only the name of the competition had changed in any meaningful way as far as I can remember. Once clubs could start spending the money we can see the effect in the numbers a few posts back.

The way the money is distributed at the top levels now, does mean that the Premiership is harder for a non-establishment (i.e. not rich!!) club to break through - only Leicester have managed it since we did. And, as the stats above show, the financial aspect of our achievement has been somewhat overstated to suit other people's narrative (agendas?). Jason Wilcox, Mark Atkins, Tony Gale, Ian Pearce, Robbie Slater, etc. - hardly millionaire players. What Kenny did was target the key areas needed to supply Shearer - and bloody hell did it work!!

A pedant writes - The Rugby League Challenge Cup that Hornets won a century ago is the exact same trophy as the one that teams play for today. That doesn’t apply to the cups top level football teams play for today. The Premier League winners trophy is a stand alone trophy and only 7 teams have won it. Rovers being one. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[sympatheticclaret]

2 hours ago, oneandycrawford said:

As to who won what and when - you can only beat what's in front of you - any trophy at any time deserves respect. Burnley won the league a year before a great Spurs side won the double - seems like a fair achievement to me. We won 5 of our 6 FA Cups at a time when there wasn't much competition but I was furious to hear that there were moves to remove them from the record because 'it wasn't really a valid competition at the time' 

Crikey, I hope you're not referring to this post from May 2019 ... which was my attempt at a " wind up ", in my early days posting on here ...

" The Football Association and the Football League have backed a proposal from The National Association of Football Statisticians to downgrade the first 22 years of the FA Cup, to the equivilant of the FA Amateur Cup which commenced in 1893-94, and ran until the 1973-74 season.

The years affected run from 1872 to 1893, and the winners of the Cup for those years will not be permitted to claim these successes as FA Cup wins on their official Club websites or publications. Explaining the reasoning, N.A.F.S. Secretary, Dr John Hickson said " Any objective analysis of the early years of the " FA Cup " reveals a large number of " byes ", " walkovers " and hugely one-sided results, and in the modern age, we no longer feel it appropriate that these early incarnations of the greatest Club knockout Cup should be classed as true F.A. Cup Competitions ". He added, " The dominance of Public School Old Boys and Military Clubs in the early years, as well as mis-matches with the early Professional Clubs coming up against "true amateur " sides, does not sit well in the modern professional age ".

An FA spokesman endorsed the decision, which is expected to be passed unopposed at next month's FA Council meeting, where the renaming of the Football Association, as the " English Football Association " is also expected to gain approval .

Some of the affected downgrading concern Clubs no longer in existance, such as Wanderers, Royal Engineers and Clapton Rovers. David Singleton, West Bromwich Albion's head of media relations said, " We accept this decision with some reluctance, but understand the reasoning behind it " . West Bromwich Albion will no longer be able to claim their 1888 & 1892 victories on their official " Roll of Honour" .

Aston Villa, Wolverhampton Wanderers and Preston North End are also affected losing one victory each, but the Club most affected is Championship side Blackburn Rovers who will have 5 of their FA Cup wins effectively deleted from the history books. No one at Blackburn Rovers was available for comment, although a source inside the Club said " they were studying the implications of the decision closely, and a statement is expected to be issued in due course "

 

[DeeCee]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

We pump £3m a year into the Academy, it'd be foolish not to use it.

Or 60k a week, what a prem reserve footballer earns  🥱

[booth]

5 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

As a matter of fact they did experience that in 1921 and 1960.

They won the Premier League, Alan Shearer as their centre forward and Kenny Dalglish as manager in 1921 and 1960?

[DavidBrent]

On 14/11/2022 at 22:08, booth said:

Alan Pace spent any of his own money yet?

Our Chairman spends their own money

You’ll never sing that

[DavidBrent]

15 hours ago, Upside Down said:

I can understand the dingles having the chip on their shoulder as the only reason they have become more dominant than us is because we had the club ripped apart from the inside. 

 

Well ……. Not sure that’s true.

The Venky’s ownership had nothing to do with Sean Dyche’s tenure and six years in the top flight.

In that time we’ve won at Old Trafford, Anfield, Chelsea and Arsenal and beat City and Spurs at home.

Not inconceivable we’d have beaten you and overtaken you during that period even if you had different owners.

[DavidBrent]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That’s the Premier League trophy. We’ve won it once and you haven’t won it at all. The old First Division trophy is a different kettle of fish. I would maintain they were both hard to win but the Premier League trophy was harder. Look at the teams that won the First Division back in the day Ipswich, Forest, Villa, Everton, Leeds etc. Nobody dominated the old First Division as Utd did in the early days of the Premier League.

 

[booth]

5 hours ago, sympatheticclaret said:

I'm sorry, but that's tosh ....

At the time of the " April Fools day " massacre, we were virtually broke, having suffered the ITV digital fiasco, whilst Rovers had both parachute payments and Walker Trust funding ... Rovers had their metaphorical foot on Burnley necks and never let up, nor would we have expected them to.

 I'm sure when Craig Hignett slammed the 5th goal past Nik Michopoulos on 1st April 2001, you were sitting there shaking your head muttering, " Sorry lads, I cannot join in with this jubilation, it's like beating up a cancer patient " ! 🙄

 

If we're being absolutely fair SC, whatever happened to Burnley FC they weren't ran by a football agent and his client. One of the best ran clubs in the country was quickly taken apart for reasons I'll allow you to imagine. Our downfall was an absolute travesty and proof that no one really cares about town clubs, and fit and proper doesn't exist. It says a lot that 10 years on we're still suffering from Venkys takeover and the events that happened soon after.

When we went down in 1999 mistakes were made but they were exactly that, mistakes, nothing nefarious. Rovers were still a very well ran club, it wasn't just about money. There's a big difference between a few dodgy managerial appointments taking you down, and pure unopposed corruption. Even before Jack Walker was allowed to invest in the club it was ran for footballing reasons. Honest people were running the club and the team would have given you a game. I've been inside the club pre JW, during the Dalglish era, and seen it when it became a husk of its former self in 2012. Although there does seem to be some signs of recovery there are still problems that the current league position wallpapers over. I still think we're in massive trouble and wonder when the time will come when Venkys turn the taps off.

With all Burnley's historical misfortune you've experienced nothing like it, you should hope that you never will.

If Pace does eventually take you for a ride no one will care but the fans, you can be sure of that. Even then I doubt it would be quite as self serving as what Kean and co did.

As a sidenote I saw a PNE fan writing some drivel about how Venkys bankroll Rovers to the tune of so many million a year. Although that's true they've lost us far far more and it's the very least they can do.

[booth]

11 minutes ago, DavidBrent said:

Our Chairman spends their own money

You’ll never sing that

No because he doesn't have any.

[booth]

14 minutes ago, DavidBrent said:

In that time we’ve won at Old Trafford, Anfield, Chelsea and Arsenal and beat City and Spurs at home.

[sympatheticclaret]

4 minutes ago, booth said:

If we're being absolutely fair SC, whatever happened to Burnley FC they weren't ran by a football agent and his client. One of the best ran clubs in the country was quickly taken apart for reasons I'll allow you to imagine. Our downfall was an absolute travesty and proof that no one really cares about town clubs, and fit and proper doesn't exist. It says a lot that 10 years on we're still suffering from Venkys takeover and the events that happened soon after.

When we went down in 1999 mistakes were made but they were exactly that, mistakes, nothing nefarious. Rovers were still a very well ran club, it wasn't just about money. There's a big difference between a few dodgy managerial appointments taking you down, and pure unopposed corruption. Even before Jack Walker was allowed to invest in the club it was ran for footballing reasons. Honest people were running the club and the team would have given you a game. I've been inside the club pre JW, during the Dalglish era, and seen it when it became a husk of its former self in 2012. Although there does seem to be some signs of recovery there are still problems that the current league position wallpapers over. I still think we're in massive trouble and wonder when the time will come when Venkys turn the taps off.

With all Burnley's historical misfortune you've experienced nothing like it, you should hope that you never will.

If Pace does eventually take you for a ride no one will care but the fans, you can be sure of that. Even then I doubt it would be quite as self serving as what Kean and co did.

As a sidenote I saw a PNE fan writing some drivel about how Venkys bankroll Rovers to the tune of so many million a year. Although that's true they've lost us far far more and it's the very least they can do.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that ... 

When my Dad did his National Service between 1954-56, he was fortunate to gain a commission, and was a 19 year old 2nd Lieutenant serving in Egypt and Cyprus, commanding a Royal Signals section. He said the best advice he got was from the Regimental Colonel, " your Sergeant and his Corporal are both WW2 veterans, they know more about the job than you ever will, use the phrase " Carry on Sergeant " often, and things will run fine ".

If only the Venkys had heeded that advice, taken a back seat, let John Williams and Allardyce crack on with things, and write the occasional large cheque, then how different things could have been. They could have become legends in the town, be lauded as " model owners " and enjoy popping over from India to be feted at every turn ...

It would probably have cost them considerably less in financial terms as well ...

[DavidBrent]

27 minutes ago, booth said:

No because he doesn't have any.

Would you swap him for your owners?

[booth]

1 minute ago, sympatheticclaret said:

I wouldn't disagree with any of that ... 

When my Dad did his National Service between 1954-56, he was fortunate to gain a commission, and was a 19 year old 2nd Lieutenant serving in Egypt and Cyprus, commanding a Royal Signals section. He said the best advice he got was from the Regimental Colonel, " your Sergeant and his Corporal are both WW2 veterans, they know more about the job than you ever will, use the phrase " Carry on Sergeant " often, and things will run fine ".

If only the Venkys had heeded that advice, taken a back seat, let John Williams and Allardyce crack on with things, and write the occasional large cheque, then how different things could have been. They could have become legends in the town, be lauded as " model owners " and enjoy popping over from India to be feted at every turn ...

It would probably have cost them considerably less in financial terms as well ...

Keeping John Williams was the main one along with Tom Finn and the rest of them. Allardyce had already said he was eventually going to move on, but whatever you do, you don't just sack him and appoint a random coach who's only been at the club for a few minutes.

When Agent Anderson was working "unpaid" in an office at Brockhole, as he said in his Sky interview JW was sending letters politely saying... What is going on?! I imagine it's pretty unprecendent but as it's little old Blackburn Rovers it doesn't get taken into account.

Yes you are correct it would cost them a lot less if they'd just carried the club on as it was going, but they had Wormtongue in their ears saying that the club could do better with different people running it.

[booth]

8 minutes ago, DavidBrent said:

Would you swap him for your owners?

You could have Himmler in charge and I'd still think he's preferable to Venkys, but we're comparing a disasterous 12 year reign to a disasterous 2(ish) years reign.

At the moment Pace has overseen the sacking of the best manager you've had in modern times, and a relegation so he's not spotless.

In other words we may be comparing different shades of shite here.

Venkys are probably richer than Pace could ever dream of but what's the point if they don't know a thing about football? For some reason they are hung up on making money from developing players rather than getting a share of the Premier League spoils, even though it leads to them losing more money than they get back year after year.