v Middlesbrough (h) - 29/12/22

[TheWeasel]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

In all the talk of the red nobody has really mentioned this. But the reason we looked so much better is because we’d mix it up and go long and turn their defence. It seems you don’t actually need a 6ft4 target man who can hold the ball up if you want to play a different way than tippy tappy.

 

I think Dack getting more match fit (looking sharper by the game) and Hedges playing further up the pitch also helped out massively along with the mixing it up. Our two most intelligent forward thinking players, quick with the ball and always looking to push forward. 

[arbitro]

4 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I completely accept Buckley was ultra-numb to put himself in that potential situation. 

I accept that. What I don’t like is the fact that in practically any game you watch there will be pushing and a square up. That also is violent conduct and the referee would be correct to show a red card there. When Kaminsky held the ball at Norwich and the incident with the ball boy happened, there were players two handed pushing each other there. That should be a red every time. Remember the Kevin Ball tackle on Dunny? Flitcrofts response is a red card every day of the week. 

If the ref had spoken to, or booked Buckley, nobody would have raised an eyebrow at his leniency. Not even the referees adjudicator or whatever they are called. The ref had an option and he has chosen to give a red. In doing so he ruined the game as a spectacle for thousands of paying fans. 

“But it’s in the rule book” will be the response.
Well yes it probably is, although not sure whether is falls under “excessive force” which the twitterati are saying it needs to in order to be a straight red ( @arbitro is that the rule?).  But all those holds and grapples which happen at every corner should be penalties according to the rule book. When a defender is letting the ball run out of play, and steps 6 feet away from the ball and barges the striker away is a foul in the rule book. . Every throw which is taken 10 yards from the correct place is against the rules. But in those situation refs decide that’s not really the done thing and ignore it.

 

On the day the officials will decide the outcome and on another day Buckley might not have been sent off. Simply down to interpretation and your wider point about inconsistency is an issue in the game. What irks me more though is that Buckley put himself in a position whereby he gave the officials a decision to make.

If VAR had been used last night I don't believe the red card would have been overturned because it wasn't a clear and obvious error by the officials. Whilst it's really subjective and open to interpretation I don't believe that in law the referee was wrong. It will be interesting to see if Rovers agree or not and lodge an appeal. 

[Paul Mani]

26 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I watched Norwich a few times late in Smith's time there. It looked like he had lost the players so the forthcoming improvement will be due to changing manager.

They will finish top 6. We will not.

Just being realistic.

I’m not saying the manager appointment is irrelevant. My point was that the sacking of Smith is not the ONLY reason they’re likely to finish above us and that the extra £50m p/a spend probably contributes the most to the situation.

Smith still had them in the playoffs too and based on his managerial career it probably would’ve turned for him there.

So JDT’s Rovers are currently sat in 3rd with a mid to lower table budget, a squad full of u23’s and he’s what, four months into his tenure?

In my opinion, there’s only one reason he should be sacked and that is if GB, the players and SW are seeing something massively wrong in his character. There’s not a single one of us who can know that.

Other than the above they MUST back him to overhaul what is ultimately a pretty poor squad. 

[Hasta]

10 minutes ago, arbitro said:

On the day the officials will decide the outcome and on another day Buckley might not have been sent off. Simply down to interpretation and your wider point about inconsistency is an issue in the game. What irks me more though is that Buckley put himself in a position whereby he gave the officials a decision to make.

If VAR had been used last night I don't believe the red card would have been overturned because it wasn't a clear and obvious error by the officials. Whilst it's really subjective and open to interpretation I don't believe that in law the referee was wrong. It will be interesting to see if Rovers agree or not and lodge an appeal. 

I don’t disagree with any of that but.  You see and read a lot of top referees talking lots about “trying to keep 22 men on the pitch”, which is not what happened last night. You’ve said yourself “on another day”” which tells us that it’s not a black and white incident. The referee has a choice.

The difference is you look from a different perspective as me. What irks me most is that I looked forward to a game over Christmas and paid money to attend it, and it was ruined as a spectacle because the officials decided that Buckley threw the ball at the opposition player with excessive force and decided that was the one law they were going to interpret exactly as the rule book rather than show common sense, whist ignoring many other blatant rule breaches.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Hasta

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

13 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I don’t disagree with any of that but.  You see and read a lot of top referees talking lots about “trying to keep 22 men on the pitch”, which is not what happened last night. You’ve said yourself “on another day”” which tells us that it’s not a black and white incident. The referee has a choice.

The difference is you look from a different perspective as me. What irks me most is that I looked forward to a game over Christmas and paid money to attend it, and it was ruined as a spectacle because the officials decided that Buckley threw the ball at the opposition player with excessive force and decided that was the one law they were going to interpret exactly as the rule book rather than show common sense, whist ignoring many other blatant rule breaches.

The World Cup showed how to referee games. Thinking back to the final the referee did a great job keeping 22 on the pitch. If that had have been a Premier League game half of the players would have had cards. Our guys don’t see it in the same light. They just referee with the rule book in hand.

Having said that it’s obvious that opposition players now  know Buckley is a petulant moron and are going to do their best to let him prove it.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[tomphil]

He needs a couple of soldiers in his squad it's as simple as that, not foot soldiers but dogs of war.

English football neither produces nor allows for those types anymore though sadly but maybe they could dig one from abroad somewhere. Van Hecke certainly had it in his locker so a midfield version of him would be nice.

[Miller11]

16 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I don’t disagree with any of that but.  You see and read a lot of top referees talking lots about “trying to keep 22 men on the pitch”, which is not what happened last night. You’ve said yourself “on another day”” which tells us that it’s not a black and white incident. The referee has a choice.

The difference is you look from a different perspective as me. What irks me most is that I looked forward to a game over Christmas and paid money to attend it, and it was ruined as a spectacle because the officials decided that Buckley threw the ball at the opposition player with excessive force and decided that was the one law they were going to interpret exactly as the rule book rather than show common sense, whist ignoring many other blatant rule breaches.

I think the excessive force is more around throwing the ball TO a player, Buckley threw the ball AT a player. He wasn’t giving him the ball back to restart the game, he was bouncing it off his head in an act of petulance. There was absolutely no need for him to be doing it, so it’s automatically an excessive use force.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I'd like to think it's Buckley's lack of discipline which won't go down well with the players.

What makes you think they care one way or another ?  Most of them are equally petulant at times. There’s hardly a real man amongst them.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

6 minutes ago, tomphil said:

He needs a couple of soldiers in his squad it's as simple as that, not foot soldiers but dogs of war.

English football neither produces nor allows for those types anymore though sadly but maybe they could dig one from abroad somewhere. Van Hecke certainly had it in his locker so a midfield version of him would be nice.

💯 We need a real midfield general, but lt like you say they're few and far between these days and it sadly seems, we also need a proper little goal poaching striker 

[Crozzy]

7 hours ago, lraC said:

I am sure Josh can defend himself on this, but I’m certain he hasn’t made it up. Expanding on it and maybe quoting the source (if that doesn’t compromise someone) will no doubt clear this up.

We are being robbed of seeing an exciting talent, who is one of our own, at the minute, so it needs sorting and fast. 

I was at the Forest game sat lower Jack Walker and when Wharton was subbed he didn’t look happy/didn’t exactly embrace JDT warmly like we saw pre Burnley game. Nor does he seem as happy when you see him walking up, looks like he’s got a bit of a face on him so I wouldn’t be surprised if some or all of what’s been said is true. 

[ElTwis]

My thoughts on the game:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As others have pointed out, a decent first half. We doubled up othe right to combat Giles - Hedges was key here and took a lot away from JRC so I thought an odd decision to give motm the other way.

Gallery never stopped working but that first half miss when he skewed it 10 yards wide was criminal 

Dack ran a lot and switched with BBD which worked well to give us space but neither seemed to be able to get much creativity going on

Hyam is superb, calm, solid, just excellent

Ayala worries me in possession and too slow out of it.

Pickering reads the game well and I thought was decent when keeping things simple.

Buckley played some gorgeous passes but if we want him as a deep lying playmaker he needs to be alongside someone strong to break up play. This is where we lost the game for me, Buckley and Morton don't work well together. The red card was onviously ridiculous all round but i have a feeling last season Buckley kept getting bookings through silliness?

Should Kaminski have done better for Boros first?

I can see the benefits of drawing the press and then beating it with longer passes, that worked for the first goal and could have led to more but we have to have another option, especially when behind with 5 mins to go.

Finally, when did we get a drum in the jack walker? First time I've heard it last night although i dont get to go as much as I'd like

 

[J*B]

27 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I don’t disagree with any of that but.  You see and read a lot of top referees talking lots about “trying to keep 22 men on the pitch”, which is not what happened last night. You’ve said yourself “on another day”” which tells us that it’s not a black and white incident. The referee has a choice.

The difference is you look from a different perspective as me. What irks me most is that I looked forward to a game over Christmas and paid money to attend it, and it was ruined as a spectacle because the officials decided that Buckley threw the ball at the opposition player with excessive force and decided that was the one law they were going to interpret exactly as the rule book rather than show common sense, whist ignoring many other blatant rule breaches.

I don’t think there ref had any choice, I’m not sure if you saw the Sky Sports News pundits explaining it but it’s clear as day. 

If you throw a ball at a player recklessly (recklessly is defined pretty much as accidentally) then it’s a yellow card.

If you throw a ball at a player with excessive force (ie at someone’s head, on purpose) then it’s a red card. 

Nobody at Rovers has made any mention of appealing the decision… because it’s the right one. As a rule it’s a stupid one, it obviously didn’t hurt the player, it was meaningless, but they’re the rules. 

The person responsible for your (our) ruined evening at Rovers and waste of money is John Buckley, who gave the referee a decision to make. He was elbowed prior, which everyone missed but was a yellow card and reacted by throwing the ball at the opposition. It’s petulance and childish and from where I was sitting cost us the game. 

[Paul Mani]

15 minutes ago, tomphil said:

He needs a couple of soldiers in his squad it's as simple as that, not foot soldiers but dogs of war.

English football neither produces nor allows for those types anymore though sadly but maybe they could dig one from abroad somewhere. Van Hecke certainly had it in his locker so a midfield version of him would be nice.

He needs loads mate…I accept the ones you’ve mentioned and I’d get those as a minimum in Jan, but for my my money, excluding loans and current form we need to overhaul the midfield and forward line as well as fullback cover.

Its a big job for any manager.

[RV Blue]

The manager got it badly wrong after Buckley got sent off. Travis should have been on the pitch straight away at 1-1, instead he inexplicably waited until we went 2-1 down to make the change. Also Garrett should be nowhere near Championship football, you can have all the passion in the world but the fact is that if you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough.

There will be one weekend very soon where we’ll drop like a stone to our rightful place in the bottom half. If I were Broughton I’d be having serious words with the manager today.

[J*B]

1 minute ago, RV Blue said:

The manager got it badly wrong after Buckley got sent off. Travis should have been on the pitch straight away at 1-1, instead he inexplicably waited until we went 2-1 down to make the change. Also Garrett should be nowhere near Championship football, you can have all the passion in the world but the fact is that if you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough.

There will be one weekend very soon where we’ll drop like a stone to our rightful place in the bottom half. If I were Broughton I’d be having serious words with the manager today.

Who would you replace to bring Travis on? We needed a goal, may as well go for broke. 

Hedges was marking Giles out the game. 
Dack is capable of a goal. 
Gallagher does so much for this team unnoticed - and I’m not sure how taking a striker off for a midfielder would have gone done. 
BBD is the big goal threat. 

[RV Blue]

5 minutes ago, J*B said:

If you throw a ball at a player with excessive force (ie at someone’s head, on purpose) then it’s a red card. 

That’s not the definition of excessive force JB. Excessive means more than necessary, force means strength or energy.
 

Buckley did not throw that ball with excessive force. Although he did give an incompetent officiating team a decision to make, which was stupid.

[Mashed Potatoes]

4 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

The manager got it badly wrong after Buckley got sent off. Travis should have been on the pitch straight away at 1-1, instead he inexplicably waited until we went 2-1 down to make the change. Also Garrett should be nowhere near Championship football, you can have all the passion in the world but the fact is that if you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough.

There will be one weekend very soon where we’ll drop like a stone to our rightful place in the bottom half. If I were Broughton I’d be having serious words with the manager today.

What would those "serious words" actually be ?

[RV Blue]

1 minute ago, J*B said:

Who would you replace to bring Travis on? We needed a goal, may as well go for broke. 

Hedges was marking Giles out the game. 
Dack is capable of a goal. 
Gallagher does so much for this team unnoticed - and I’m not sure how taking a striker off for a midfielder would have gone done. 
BBD is the big goal threat. 

Dack for Travis as soon as Buckley went off, and I mean as soon as. At that point we still had something to defend.

[RV Blue]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

What would those "serious words" actually be ?

Improve or get out, I’d be running out of patience quickly.

[Hasta]

I refer @J*Band @Miller11back to my original post here.

Of course Buckey is to blame, but I expect those officials now to send off any time two players square up and push each other. I also expect them to give fouls in the penalty areas for holding, to blow for free kicks when defenders ‘Shepard’ the ball out by obstructing a striker. Rovers took a throw about 15 yards forward last night and the ref waved play on to the Boro complaints. I expect them to pull them back for those.

If someone does a deliberate hand ball on the line, scythes the last man down, a reckless two footed lunge and the referee ignores it then it would be highlighted as a missed red card. If that ref had spoken to, or booked, Buckley last night then nobody would have even mentioned it as a red card avoided post match.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by Hasta

[J*B]

3 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

That’s not the definition of excessive force JB. Excessive means more than necessary, force means strength or energy.
 

Buckley did not throw that ball with excessive force. Although he did give an incompetent officiating team a decision to make, which was stupid.

That’s not what the pundits on Sky said. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

4 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

Improve or get out, I’d be running out of patience quickly.

Sounds to me like you want a miracle worker, not a manager.

[Miller11]

5 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I refer @J*Band @Miller11back to my original post here.

Of course Buckey is to blame, but I expect those officials now to send off any time two players square up and push each other. I also expect them to give fouls in the penalty areas for holding, to blow for free kicks when defenders ‘Shepard’ the ball out by obstructing a striker. Rovers took a throw about 15 yards forward last night and the ref waved play on to the Boro complaints. I expect them to pull them back for those.

If someone does a deliberate hand ball on the line, scythes the last man down, a reckless two footed lunge and the referee ignores it then it would be highlighted as a missed red card. If that ref had spoken to, or booked, Buckley last night then nobody would have even mentioned it as a red card avoided post match.  

There is plenty wrong with refereeing standards. Personally I wish they would book players for exaggerating injuries, like they are supposed to. We’d see half a dozen a game. The inconsistencies and failings elsewhere don’t mean the officials got it wrong last night.

7 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

That’s not the definition of excessive force JB. Excessive means more than necessary, force means strength or energy.
 

Buckley did not throw that ball with excessive force. Although he did give an incompetent officiating team a decision to make, which was stupid.

As it was completely unnecessary to throw the ball at the back of his head, any force is excessive.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Miller11

[Hasta]

A lot of people arguing about the rule here, rather than the fact the referee doesn’t have to give it. Just like in they don’t have to give one every time two players square up. Common sense. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Hasta

[Paul Mani]

The Buckley debate is a nonsense. His act sits in a grey area of interpretation, which was interpreted by the officials as a red card.

I’m sure Bucko has done exactly as he should do and accepted responsibility for honestly, a thoroughly stupid act that has cost his team.

The more worrying thing for me is that we never lay a fucking glove on anyone in these situations. No one snaps into any tackles, we don’t EVER bang at the door….I literally would’ve put my house on us not scoring once we went 2-1 down, with or without the sending off. Which pisses me off even more because you see this type of drive and hunger in loads of teams.

Us getting a last minute equaliser last night having been down to 10 men would’ve felt like a big win! But it was never on the cards, it was the same with Mowbray which is why we need this overhaul.