v Middlesbrough (h) - 29/12/22

[frosty]

6 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

Improve or get out, I’d be running out of patience quickly.

If he identified the likes of Hirst, Mola and Szmodics in summer he also needs to take a look at himself.

[den]

Buckley shouldn’t have done what he did. That’s not the discussion.

But honestly, do we want games ruined for spectators for something as trivial as that? - no.

was it really violent conduct? - no.

Did the referee have any other option? - Of course he did.

[Herbie6590]

https://www.brfcs.com/magazine/articles/top-10-stupid-red-cards/330 

[Paul Mani]

2 minutes ago, den said:

Buckley shouldn’t have done what he did. That’s not the discussion.

But honestly, do we want games ruined for spectators for something as trivial as that? - no.

was it really violent conduct? - no.

Did the referee have any other option? - Of course he did.

What Buckley did does form a part of the discussion though. Because it was he who set the chain of events off. If he doesn’t have a brain fart then there’s no decision to make.

That decision won’t set off a chain reaction of ‘similar’ decisions, will it? No chance…we see weird, wonderful and terrible decisions every week. It’ll be forgotten tomorrow, most will have already forgotten it!! It’s a game run by human beings who are flawed and bound to see situations differently.

The clamour to focus on third parties in this situation is, in my opinion an insight to modern day culture. Focus only on what we can control. The rest will happen in spite of this, sometimes it will fall on your side and other times it won’t. 

 

[Miller11]

2 minutes ago, den said:

Buckley shouldn’t have done what he did. That’s not the discussion.

But honestly, do we want games ruined for spectators for something as trivial as that? - no.

was it really violent conduct? - no.

Did the referee have any other option? - Of course he did.

You have a point here, but on the flip side, do we want players committing acts of petulance on the pitch all the time?

Should bouncing the ball off the back of an opponents head whenever they are feeling a bit sulky become as commonplace as moaning about every decision? Does spitting on someone really do any damage? That time Joey Barton punched Pedersen in the stomach, it wasn’t really a hard punch.

From acts like Buckley’s to the fact players dive and feign injury all the time, the scrutiny is always on the referee. Buckley and most other players need to grow up and be held accountable.

[blondie]

30 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

,

 If I were Broughton I’d be having serious words with the manager today.

Broughton is as responsible as Tomasson for the situation, the recruitment has been very poor.

[Herbie6590]

13 minutes ago, den said:

Buckley shouldn’t have done what he did. That’s not the discussion.

But honestly, do we want games ruined for spectators for something as trivial as that? - no.

was it really violent conduct? - no.

Did the referee have any other option? - Of course he did.

The referees are subject to assessment. The decision was clearly made by the officials collectively who believed it to be the best interpretation of the laws (bearing in mind no VAR & who in their right mind wants VAR BTW…)

Rovers clearly aren’t appealing it which speaks volumes about what’s they think of the officials interpretation. 

Buckley threw it at the back of the head of a player not expecting it…we should be expecting a claim for whiplash now if anything…😆

[garnersfags]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

 We can moan about it until the cows come home but in law the referee was absolutely correct. The villain here is Buckley.

The important point here is that regardless of the law, no other referee has (ever?) applied the law in this way, so the ref was wrong to interpret in this way, as he has seen the ball thrown at an oppponent many times over the years and never given a red for it. 

I also agree that it was the Boro bench, who complained to the 4th official, who then alerted the ref, who had to make a decision whilst not knowing what force the ball had been thrown with. 

Therefore, he assumed the ball may have been thrown with the same force as Kounde against Barca, and covered himself by taking the same action. 

A chain and catalogue of small errors and misunderstandings.

Very sad, and an overreaction by both JB and the Preston-schooled ref....

[garnersfags]

https://www.google.com/search?q=kounde+red+card+vs+barcelona&oq=koundexred+card&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i13i512j0i13i30l2j0i5i13i30l2j0i390l5.6536j0j9&client=ms-android-samsung-ga-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:4799e4f1,vid:J30Ot05K7yo

[tomphil]

7 minutes ago, blondie said:

Broughton is as responsible as Tomasson for the situation, the recruitment has been very poor.

When the first thought in recruitment is get young cheap potential gems to get games into and increase in value then sadly it'll throw up many more like Hirst and Mola.

 

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, garnersfags said:

The important point here is that regardless of the law, no other referee has (ever?) applied the law in this way, so the ref was wrong to interpret in this way, as he has seen the ball thrown at an oppponent many times over the years and never given a red for it. 

I also agree that it was the Boro bench, who complained to the 4th official, who then alerted the ref, who had to make a decision whilst not knowing what force the ball had been thrown with. 

Therefore, he assumed the ball may have been thrown with the same force as Kounde against Barca, and covered himself by taking the same action. 

A chain and catalogue of small errors and misunderstandings.

Very sad, and an overreaction by both JB and the Preston-schooled ref....

In October against Swansea Callum Robinson of Cardiff was sent off in the 7th minute for throwing the ball at an opponents head. There are many others too. And according to Tomasson it was the assistant referee who told the referee what had happened. He will have advised the referee to show red card as in his judgement it was thrown with excessive force.

[tugayislegend]

The reason we cannot come back from going behind is because we dont CHANGE our way of playing. When going behind we HAVE to go aggressive, takes risks, gamble with extra men in box, play long balls into box! This has to come from the manager, but surely even the players need to take some responsibility!

 

 

 

 

[DaveyB]

I think a few different things can all be true here:

Was it a stupid thing for Buckley to do? Yes

Should he have done it? No

Was it worthy of a red card? No

Did the referee have to send him off? No

Personally, I tend to go off the reaction of players, managers etc. The fact that, even when it happened, not one of their players complained to the ref about it tells me that it was a nothing incident and, when the red card was produced, their players were just as shocked as ours were. 
 

But, as others have said, I don’t think that incident on its own cost us the game. We were far too slow to react to losing a man and had no shape and were chasing shadows. As soon as the red card came out we needed to shut up shop and try and hold the point. Personally I would have brought Travis and S. Wharton on for Dack & Gallagher, gone 5-3-1 and tried to frustrate them, which might just have meant they left space for us to hit on the break. Instead, we kept 4 attacking players on the pitch, got overrun in the midfield and conceded a second too easily, which then meant we had an uphill battle to get back into the game - how many times does a team with 10 come from behind? I’d wager it is not very often. 

[lraC]

50 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I refer @J*Band @Miller11back to my original post here.

Of course Buckey is to blame, but I expect those officials now to send off any time two players square up and push each other. I also expect them to give fouls in the penalty areas for holding, to blow for free kicks when defenders ‘Shepard’ the ball out by obstructing a striker. Rovers took a throw about 15 yards forward last night and the ref waved play on to the Boro complaints. I expect them to pull them back for those.

If someone does a deliberate hand ball on the line, scythes the last man down, a reckless two footed lunge and the referee ignores it then it would be highlighted as a missed red card. If that ref had spoken to, or booked, Buckley last night then nobody would have even mentioned it as a red card avoided post match.  

That’s exactly it. Would Carrick have mentioned it after the game, had we done on to win. Would we as fans have been moaning about a blatant sending off, if one of their players had done it?

I also do not think the role of the fourth official is to make decisions like that. Imagine if the fourth official had ruled our goal out for offside. 

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

I’m not saying the manager appointment is irrelevant. My point was that the sacking of Smith is not the ONLY reason they’re likely to finish above us and that the extra £50m p/a spend probably contributes the most to the situation.

Smith still had them in the playoffs too and based on his managerial career it probably would’ve turned for him there.

So JDT’s Rovers are currently sat in 3rd with a mid to lower table budget, a squad full of u23’s and he’s what, four months into his tenure?

In my opinion, there’s only one reason he should be sacked and that is if GB, the players and SW are seeing something massively wrong in his character. There’s not a single one of us who can know that.

Other than the above they MUST back him to overhaul what is ultimately a pretty poor squad. 

I doubt that those mentioned have turned against JDT.

It's apparent that there are some issues with some players and that is an early test of the managers man management skills.

Wharton being denied a match ticket! There is something fundamentally wrong if that actually happened.

There are aspects of his management that worry me, mainly around what seems to be his preferred style of play.

I'm not calling for his head after such a short time, he deserves at least this season and next to prove himself. I think he will see out his full 3 year contract unless he decides otherwise.

Same goes for GB.

We are still 3rd and that's down to the manager and players but also due to the underperformance of quite a few other teams. That appears to be largely correcting itself.

It will be a hell of an achievement if we finish this season in the playoff positions.

[BlackburnEnd75]

6 minutes ago, tugayislegend said:

The reason we cannot come back from going behind is because we dont CHANGE our way of playing. When going behind we HAVE to go aggressive, takes risks, gamble with extra men in box, play long balls into box! This has to come from the manager, but surely even the players need to take some responsibility!

 

 

 

 

We played with 10 men for nearly a half against a good side. Think criticism of JDT has been over the top. 

Doesn't mean we can't ask questions. Like why garrett? Why not use the bench more.

The introduction of Travis and garrett was aimed at getting us to be more aggressive. If we'd taken risks we'd have got picked off, that's the reality of playing with 10 men. 

I know JDT has lost a lot of faith with some really poor insipid performances but reality is we lost last night due to a combination of Buckley and the officials.

We are 3rd (somehow), we've got a run of winnable games coming up, let's not sharpen the knives too prematurely. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

5 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I doubt that those mentioned have turned against JDT.

It's apparent that there are some issues with some players and that is an early test of the managers man management skills.

Wharton being denied a match ticket! There is something fundamentally wrong if that actually happened.

There are aspects of his management that worry me, mainly around what seems to be his preferred style of play.

I'm not calling for his head after such a short time, he deserves at least this season and next to prove himself. I think he will see out his full 3 year contract unless he decides otherwise.

Same goes for GB.

We are still 3rd and that's down to the manager and players but also due to the underperformance of quite a few other teams. That appears to be largely correcting itself.

It will be a hell of an achievement if we finish this season in the playoff positions.

I get the feeling all is not well behind the scenes. Are the players not happy with JDT ?

[den]

I’d much prefer referees and the authorities that help interpret the laws of the game to begin to put the fans first in everything they do.
 

You guys pay a fortune to watch Rovers. You’re being cheated out of the entertainment of the game. The only people who lose out with these trivial red cards is you - the fans. 
 

red cards should be given when the referee really has no other option.

Edited December 30, 2022 by den

[DE.]

I don't think it's an either/or situation. Buckley was stupid for doing it, the "rules" are stupid for allowing it to be a red card. It was only a few weeks ago in the WC, broadcast all over the world, that Paredes booted the ball into the Dutch dugout with force on purpose and Van Dijk came steaming in to barge Paredes to the ground. Yellow card for both. Meanwhile Buckley bounces a ball of somebody's head and gets sent off 😂 I don't like the idea of using "interpretation" as a cop out for making a ridiculous decision. Even if in some silly way you can justify it using the existing rules, it's still nonsense. By applying rules in such a rigid, senseless way it sucks all the fun and personality out of the game and robs people of a fair game. A dense decision by Buckley? Sure, but the "rules" and referee's decision are just as stupid if not more so.

Edited December 30, 2022 by DE.

[Ossydave]

8 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I get the feeling all is not well behind the scenes. Are the players not happy with JDT ?

If they're not, then why not?

It's pretty obvious that the place was a holiday camp under Mowbray, has JDT tried to change that and upset some? If so then tough shit, it needed to happen and it says more about the players than the manager. Listening to Szmodics on the commentary last night though it doesn't appear that the players are rebelling against the new regime on that front. He could of course be talking shit, OR he views things differently because he wasn't part of the lemon drizzle revolution. 

Do they disagree with the tactics? Quite possible, but it's been mentioned that he values their input, talk of presentations after a defeat to receive feedback on what went wrong etc. Or is he just blindly ignoring the feedback and insisting he knows best?

When a manager loses the dressing room you usually see a few things. Suspicious 'injuries' when players can't really be arsed. We have a few injuries at present but they do seem legit. You tend to see petulant behaviour too, much like we saw from Buckley last night. You'd expect him to be happy about being recalled to the team and not acting like a child. The jury is out I guess on the players interpretation of the manager.....

 

[SK49er]

Went last night having watched the last 4 EFL games on TV.  Thought the 1st half was much better overall than what I'd seen in those last 4.  Yes, the passing across the back 4 can get a bit tedious but I could see a method to it.  The long passes were hit with some success - even more so when we managed to work the ball in to the midfield.  I thought Morton and Buckley worked hard to make themselves available to the defenders and had some good combinations.  My main disappointment was with the continued lack of end product from the forwards - Hedges' goal notwithstanding.

I am a card carrying Buckley fan and, having stalked on here for years, the stick he gets at times is way OTT for me.  That said, despite me enjoying his first half performance I can't help but be disappointed at his stupidity throwing the ball at McGree.  Sure I thought it was, at best, a harsh decision but agree with the previous poster who said you look at yourself first and he needs to do that.  I know we conceded early in the second half but still would have backed us to get something based on the first.

Though I was happy we didn't capitulate after conceding the second I did think we should have made a change immediately when Buckley got sent off, would much rather have seen A Wharton rather than Garrett and wonder what Markanday has to do to get 10 mins given that BBD and Gallagher pulled up no trees last night and haven't done for a few games.  In the end hugely frustrating given the half time situation.

Looking thin on the ground for Sunday.  Need everyone available to step up and, perhaps, a couple of bold selection decisions from JDT.

Hello, btw.

[lraC]

Interesting.

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/cfa/global/files/referees/fourth-official-guidance.ashx

[Herbie6590]

13 minutes ago, lraC said:

Interesting.

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/cfa/global/files/referees/fourth-official-guidance.ashx

Just deleted a post linking to this - the key is the Red card provision 😆

[dingles staying down 4ever]

3 hours ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

A quick question - were the tactics last night, mixing short passes with long balls, typical of what had gone before ? Last night was different - and at times effective. The only time we went a bit suicidal at the back was when down to 10 men - prior to that we was playing it through the lines well.

Still nearly got caught several times passing across our own box and contrary to what you say it happened several times in the first half. It was better but by no means cured , it was still one pass from disaster.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

On the day the officials will decide the outcome and on another day Buckley might not have been sent off. Simply down to interpretation and your wider point about inconsistency is an issue in the game. What irks me more though is that Buckley put himself in a position whereby he gave the officials a decision to make.

If VAR had been used last night I don't believe the red card would have been overturned because it wasn't a clear and obvious error by the officials. Whilst it's really subjective and open to interpretation I don't believe that in law the referee was wrong. It will be interesting to see if Rovers agree or not and lodge an appeal. 

Although with VAR as the ref missed the original incident he would have been asked to review the incident on a monitor and not go of the fourth official view