Appeal to EFL

[roverandout]

3 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

But...how do you know?

Who knows?

[chaddyrovers]

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You are assuming that there must a hidden reason why Adam Wharton doesnt play. It hasnt crossed your mind that Tomasson may not always judge selections correctly as it is obviously subjective. Whereas when people say that we may get financial penalties for not including Morton in squads, that is a "conspiracy."

JB posted some info why he wasn't being picked. Then he been injured. On the way back now. 

Morton hasn't started last 2 games so much for the financial penalties 

 

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Morton or Adam Wharton for the squad?

Maybe both depending on squad injuries. If I had to pick right now just 1 probably Morton cos he is fit and been playing. If we sign O'Brien then he starts for me 

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Buckley's performances have dropped this season and IMO he isnt suited to playing so deep. Adam Wharton has not played that often but more often than not has stood out.

Buckley's performances have dropped and why he wasn't selected for the squad just like Travis, etc. He is readjusting to playing in the role again. He was good on Wednesday controlling the game and his dictate our tempo. 

[wilsdenrover]

5 hours ago, bluebruce said:

But...how do you know?

I just do, or do I…

[Ricky]

See Forest have their own appeal lodged after they left Steve Cook out of their 25 man squad and then got injuries to centre half’s so asked the league to add him back in. 

Not sure it works like that tbf.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

55 minutes ago, Ricky said:

See Forest have their own appeal lodged after they left Steve Cook out of their 25 man squad and then got injuries to centre half’s so asked the league to add him back in. 

Not sure it works like that tbf.

Would that be Premier League rather than EFL - be interesting to see what they do. I thought the only potential exception was goal keeper ?

[wilsdenrover]

1 hour ago, Ricky said:

See Forest have their own appeal lodged after they left Steve Cook out of their 25 man squad and then got injuries to centre half’s so asked the league to add him back in. 

Not sure it works like that tbf.

The rules do allow for changes to the squad list at other times (outside of the transfer windows) but only with the approval of the Premier League board.

I doubt 2 injuries is a sufficient reason to give this approval, and so far the Premier League seems to agree.

Edited February 24, 2023 by wilsdenrover

[Guest]

13 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld
 

Nope - no such thing as unknown knowns

What? You think you know everything? There is lots of stuff that you don't know, that others do - these are the known unknowns Rumsfeld was (allegedly) alluding to. Anyway, it is a mindset - we see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear, feel what we want to feel, taste what we want to taste and smell bloody awful.

[wilsdenrover]

44 minutes ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

Would that be Premier League rather than EFL - be interesting to see what they do. I thought the only potential exception was goal keeper ?

Transfers outside of the windows are at the discretion of the Premier League board - I guess it’s just far more likely they’ll approve one for a goalkeeper.

Squad lists changes outside of the windows require the permission of the Premier League board

I’ve just been reading up on the rules! 😀

[superniko]

Disregarding any actual use of our eyes

Wharton 1G and 1A in 498 minutes in the league (6 starts and 1 full match)

Morton 2A in 2209 minutes in the league (24 starts and 18 full matches)

Buckley 1A in 1227 minutes in the league (14 starts and 9 full matches)

This is just Chaddy being Chaddy.

Morton and Buckley have been absolutely horrendous all season, it's not even up for debate. 3 assists between the two of them and 0 goals across a combined 3,436 minutes (equivalent of 38 matches)

Adam Wharton should be the first centre midfielder on our team sheet when fit until performances state otherwise.

[wilsdenrover]

2 minutes ago, superniko said:

Disregarding any actual use of our eyes

Wharton 1G and 1A in 498 minutes in the league (6 starts and 1 full match)

Morton 2A in 2209 minutes in the league (24 starts and 18 full matches)

Buckley 1A in 1227 minutes in the league (14 starts and 9 full matches)

This is just Chaddy being Chaddy.

Morton and Buckley have been absolutely horrendous all season, it's not even up for debate. 3 assists between the two of them and 0 goals across a combined 3,436 minutes (equivalent of 38 matches)

Adam Wharton should be the first centre midfielder on our team sheet when fit until performances state otherwise.

Given the quality of our strikers, is there anyway of finding out how many chances each of those players has created?

I don’t disagree with your thinking, It would just be interesting to know.

[Blue blood]

4 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Given the quality of our strikers, is there anyway of finding out how many chances each of those players has created?

I don’t disagree with your thinking, It would just be interesting to know.

Indeed. Likewise I feel Morton in particular is poor but Xavi and Iniesta in their prime would struggle to get assists with our strikers 

[superniko]

6 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Given the quality of our strikers, is there anyway of finding out how many chances each of those players has created?

I don’t disagree with your thinking, It would just be interesting to know.

Suppose you could look at xG I guess as one way of doing that but I wouldn't have the data to see who assisted each chance, not sure if that's even available anywhere. 

I guess top level, we rank towards the bottom of the table (maybe even bottom) for xG and chances created overall as a team and Morton / Buckley / Travis are the 3 CMs who have played the most minutes (not creating much).

We're scoring more goals than what our play and chances created suggests we should....so not sure the blame is on the strikers finishing (though I agree you also add in movement and involvement themselves).  

Edited February 24, 2023 by superniko

[47er]

7 minutes ago, superniko said:

Disregarding any actual use of our eyes

Wharton 1G and 1A in 498 minutes in the league (6 starts and 1 full match)

Morton 2A in 2209 minutes in the league (24 starts and 18 full matches)

Buckley 1A in 1227 minutes in the league (14 starts and 9 full matches)

This is just Chaddy being Chaddy.

Morton and Buckley have been absolutely horrendous all season, it's not even up for debate. 3 assists between the two of them and 0 goals across a combined 3,436 minutes (equivalent of 38 matches)

Adam Wharton should be the first centre midfielder on our team sheet when fit until performances state otherwise.

At his age, he probably needs resting from time to time, but I absolutely agree he should have had much more time on the pitch.

[Guest]

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that A. Wharton and Tomasson had a bit of an after-training bust up when A. Wharton went home early one day. If it wasn't, then there you go!

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

28 minutes ago, superniko said:

Disregarding any actual use of our eyes

Wharton 1G and 1A in 498 minutes in the league (6 starts and 1 full match)

Morton 2A in 2209 minutes in the league (24 starts and 18 full matches)

Buckley 1A in 1227 minutes in the league (14 starts and 9 full matches)

This is just Chaddy being Chaddy.

Morton and Buckley have been absolutely horrendous all season, it's not even up for debate. 3 assists between the two of them and 0 goals across a combined 3,436 minutes (equivalent of 38 matches)

Adam Wharton should be the first centre midfielder on our team sheet when fit until performances state otherwise.

I always think of equal interest is play leading to an assist - i.e. indirect assist. e.g. the cross field ball from JRC to Thomas opened up the Blackpool defence - but the assist would go to Thomas. Both Buckley and Morton play the deep lying midfield player, whereas Wharton played further forward. In no way is it an opinion on any of the players - but stats only tell part of the story - e.g. on our expected goal ration we would be bottom of the table :-)

[smiller14]

Assists is a flawed measure when looking at centre midfield performance. As DMTP says above, often they 'assist' the player who is credited with the assist. Tugay probably ranked pretty little in assists for us, but how often did he control a game? The best example I can think of is the goal vs Liverpool on Boxing Day - Tugay made Gerrard look silly, played a wonderful pass to MGP who set up McCarthy. 

Now, I'm not even remotely insinuating our centre midfields have 'ran games' or even played well, as that hasn't been true. I think they've been poor at times, and Morton has regressed considerably since Christmas. Buckley and Travis seem to be coming to, at least. 

[wilsdenrover]

5 minutes ago, smiller14 said:

Assists is a flawed measure when looking at centre midfield performance. As DMTP says above, often they 'assist' the player who is credited with the assist. Tugay probably ranked pretty little in assists for us, but how often did he control a game? The best example I can think of is the goal vs Liverpool on Boxing Day - Tugay made Gerrard look silly, played a wonderful pass to MGP who set up McCarthy. 

Now, I'm not even remotely insinuating our centre midfields have 'ran games' or even played well, as that hasn't been true. I think they've been poor at times, and Morton has regressed considerably since Christmas. Buckley and Travis seem to be coming to, at least. 

According to the Premier League, Tugay had 14 assists in 233 games. 

[superniko]

That is why I started the post with 'ignoring our eyes'. As anyone with eyes would not start either Buckley or Morton based on this season.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, superniko said:

That is why I started the post with 'ignoring our eyes'. As anyone with eyes would not start either Buckley or Morton based on this season.

This is the long and short of it, sometimes the most important test of a CM is the eye test.

Morton and Buckley fail that test this season.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mellor Rover

[smiller14]

7 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

According to the Premier League, Tugay had 14 assists in 233 games. 

Exactly! 1 in every 16-17 games, and he's one of the greatest to lace up his boots.

Ultimately though, our centre midfielders haven't been up to scratch. We've too often been overrun, and we've been far too soft in the centre of the park. Buckley is showing some green shoots lately, so hopefully the penny is starting to drop. 

On the flipside, Wharton has bene much easier on the eyes. He's a rough diamond, but he's got an assertiveness and confidence about him. That performance at Blackpool was one of the best centre midfield performances we've seen in many a year. Funnily enough, he also eclipses the others on goals/assists too, so he's winning in every department. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by smiller14

[superniko]

21 minutes ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

I always think of equal interest is play leading to an assist - i.e. indirect assist. e.g. the cross field ball from JRC to Thomas opened up the Blackpool defence - but the assist would go to Thomas. Both Buckley and Morton play the deep lying midfield player, whereas Wharton played further forward. In no way is it an opinion on any of the players - but stats only tell part of the story - e.g. on our expected goal ration we would be bottom of the table 🙂

Agree 100% - almost impossible to find that information, but we can see it ourselves. We're talking about the example of the JRC ball but I don't remember doing that for Morton all season.

Regarding your point about xG meaning we should be being bottom, we're talking about xGF here (xG For) i.e. chances created ignoring the defensive side of things. We average 0.94 goals per match and we're scoring 1.06 goals per match so fairly accurate (only 6 teams have scored less). 35 goals in 33 games. 0.94 is 2nd bottom (Rotherham 0.93) - so as we can all see week to week, we are creating very little (this is the front 4s fault too).

Where we're getting the 'rub of the green' in actual position vs xG is xGAgainst (which suggests we should have conceded 48 goals rather than 37). I can't be bothered unpicking that on a Friday 🙂 Kaminski started the season very well? We take the lead and go defensive and solid? Lots of stuff can skew it in reality as we know.

[superniko]

7 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

This is the long and short of it, sometimes the most important test of a CM is the eye test.

Morton and Buckley fail that test this season.

It's not to say Wharton would come in and play much better either, he might not. We've struggled a bit with injuries in fairness so JDT has had his hands tied, but it did feel like it took a long time to 'drop' Morton whereas he was quicker (rightly so) with Travis earlier in the season.

I've gone well off topic here to be fair. I guess what we're all saying is it's a bloody shame we didn't get O'Brien in!

[rigger]

11 hours ago, roverandout said:

Who knows?

Is that Doctor Who ?

 

18 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

This is the long and short of it, sometimes the most important test of a CM is the eye test.

Morton and Buckley fail that test this season.

Aye Aye captain

[wilsdenrover]

12 minutes ago, superniko said:

It's not to say Wharton would come in and play much better either, he might not. We've struggled a bit with injuries in fairness so JDT has had his hands tied, but it did feel like it took a long time to 'drop' Morton whereas he was quicker (rightly so) with Travis earlier in the season.

I've gone well off topic here to be fair. I guess what we're all saying is it’s a bloody shame we didn’t get O’Brien in!

Is it* - 3 assists in 43 appearances last season says otherwise 😁

 

*of course it is!

[Guest]

What do us stakeholders know anyway?