Season tickets 2023-24 - what could/should be offered ?

[wilsdenrover]

4 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Morning Glen

 

Many thanks for your email.

 

As previously discussed at one of our previous meetings when setting ticket prices we balance the needs of all club stakeholders to ensure reasonable prices are offered, with multiple payment options to spread the cost and ease cash flow for individuals.

After consultation with representatives of the Supporters Trust and the Fans Forum it was agreed that we would get the 23/24 season tickets on sale as soon as possible. Following discussions with the Owners the super-saver period was announced on the afternoon of Friday 24^th March 2023 the earliest we have gone out on sale for many years.

This first phase included a reduction of £50 from the adult standard price in 22/23 and a £20 saving for those who purchased in the early-bird period of that season. Most clubs across the EFL have chosen to freeze or increase prices from the outset to manage the rising operational costs that they are incurring, thanks to our Owners we were able to resist this approach and did not.

Whilst the club fully appreciates the cost of living increase felt by most across the UK, a reduction by any more would fail to cover rising operational costs and see us suffer a Year On Year reduction in revenue.

We have worked behind the scenes with the Owners to get them to approve a £50 discounted price on the adult standard price £429 of last 22/23 season especially working within the backdrop of rapidly rising costs across all aspects of the Club and the three main sites.

We have seen that the suggestion of reducing costs by half would see the volume of tickets sold double does not correlate; this has been tested throughout the season to allow us to base our decision on data.

The rate of purchase is above that of the previous 5 years, showing a positive response to the super-saver period. This period was designed to span two pay-days (March and April) allowing for supporters to save in two instalments. There is also the V12 finance option for those who are eligible. Whilst some have raised the issue of not being eligible, it would not be ethical of us to argue their eligibility and plunge supporters who cannot afford credit, into debt.

The rationale for the phased approach allows the Club to meet its financial targets whilst giving supporters the opportunity to make an initial saving followed by a price freeze versus 22/23 prices which, we believe, is another magnanimous gesture from our Owners who have taking on board the financial pressure placed on some of our supporter base.

Obviously, those who need longer to save will unfortunately pay a slightly higher price but reversing the order would make no sense to anyone and we were also looking to reward early purchases ahead of the deciding match in the 46-game Championship season.

Supporters could have therefore locked in a price of £379 (adults) for a potential Premier League season, which would be one of, if not the cheapest Premier League season ticket. £379 also makes us very competitive amongst our peers who are in and around the top 8 of the Championship.

We have seen an increase in attendances, season ticket purchases and engagement in the past season. This is some of the best growth that the club has seen in recent years. We’re on course to attract more season ticket holders than we have in the past 5 seasons and have a growing database to market to for individual match tickets. We anticipate a 90% renewal rate and a 10% churn followed by an uplift of around 1500-2000 supporters.

Other Clubs may have lower prices or longer periods, but they also won’t generate the same revenue we do therefore limiting their ability to invest in other areas of the Club like we do. 

We have currently exceeded 7000 sales with a cohort of circa 300 not being able to take advantage of the Super Saver and who have paid the £429 with further sales still steadily coming in.

Ultimately the club’s commercial goal is to generate funds that allows us to put a competitive senior team on the pitch along with operating a successful Category One Academy and a support structure to meet the many operational demands across the Club.

 

Naturally we welcome as many fans as possible at all matches as can be seen by ongoing investment in to our outstanding community integration work and match day standards gaining a Gold Standard in family excellence awards.

 

Can I conclude by thanking you for your valued support and happy to meet up over the summer should you wish to do so.

 

Kind Regards

 

Steve

My response.

Thank you Steve,

I fully appreciate your detailed response at the weekend in your free time.

A couple of points to raise.

1. Early bird - Does indeed cover two pay days, but given the timing,  the first pay day in many instances is a wash out. Many people budget at the beginning of a month and not in the final week leading up to pay day. This creates an impulsive purchase rather than a measured one. I strongly believe the end of May given the season starts on the 5th August is more representative and realistic when considering the demographic/target audience.

2. The V12 has never been a good arrangement for a number of fans, i fully understand why rovers use them due to the working capital being released earlier than other providers like premium credit, but do not agree that this is a mechanism to prevent people dropping further in debt. Its no different than buying up front and potentially jeopardising other commitments that supporters may have.
Is there not a potential arrangement of using both providers?

3. Our owners investment each season is very much appreciated, we are very reliant on them given our revenues do not balance the books. I also appreciate club employees are also feeling the pinch and no doubt the club has given rises to these too, as any other employers have too.  Interest rates rised to 4.5%this week, causing further pain to many whose mortgages are rising by the hundreds.

4. Premier League, Championship, Division 1 etc its fair to say has very little baring on the majority of loyal season ticket holders. We are in this together and our support is unconditional. We were born into the Rovers family and although success is what everyone seeks, we dont wander away when he dont get it. There is certainly no sense of entitlement for the majority of supporters in terms of where we should or should not be in terms of league position.

5. I dont think I've asked for season tickets to be reduced by half,  this is not realistic. However what I am asking for is realism. The 9th May however served up was an unrealistic expectation. I will check with the Trust and Fans Forum, as i cannot believe either entity would of subscribed to an increase as soon as the last ball is kicked.

6. You dont answer the question regarding a further increase, can you please advise if there will be one?.


It's nice to know we have sold nearly 7000, although hitting last seasons sales is still some way off.
I will be interested to know how many new season ticket holders we attract, but also how many we lose.
If we gain 1500 new ones, but lose 1500 old ones this cannot be deemed a success. I would go as far as stating it be a disaster as the baton is passed from one generation to another within families. Losing that succession is something a family club should be avoiding at all costs.

I will be happy to meet up at your convenience to discuss this, but also how we avoid this in the future.  There are longer term options which I feel the club could adopt which would bring about a more positive conclusion in future ticketing strategies.

As we discussed last time we met, increasing our support should be paramount, our club needs its supporter base and we cannot continue to lose supporters season upon season as they are the very fabric to the long term success of our club, or indeed any club who values their importance.

Best wishes
Glen

Taking my bits in bold in order (I only skim read your reply so apologies if you’ve brought these points up already):

Jim won’t like this 😁

Is he able to prove this?

Would he be willing to share this data?

It’s also a regulated industry so there’s no argument to be made.

I disagree that it’s a slightly higher price - but if people couldn’t take advantage of the early bird (aka couldn’t afford it) - what makes him think they’ll be able to pay the higher price??

 

[K-Hod]

9 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Thanks for this - what were these recommendations? (apologies if these have already been mentioned elsewhere)

The obvious one of dropping the price (more than the £50!), mentioning what other clubs were doing.

(This is what I recommended personally, I’d have to try and find the minutes of the meeting, for anyone else’s input).

[wilsdenrover]

14 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

From a Trust point of view I’d say there were discussions rather than consultations. They key recommendations we put to them included

1. Entry level pricing

2. Focus on ST retention after earlier start of ST sales

3. Flexible ST offers

4. Market more effectively in the wider east lancs area and beyond

5. Improve the match day experience

 

So I’d say they listened to point 2, but then negated any benefit by increasing the price a few weeks later. There’s quite a bit more detail about the discussions we’ve been involved with back across this and the Trust thread. Glen’s 5th point is where we face difficulty - we have to prove there is enough appetite in the non-attending fanbase and persuade them to risk a price cut. It’s a battle.

Thank you for this 😀

I was going to comment on the use of ‘consultation’…

All your suggestions sound very sensible - which is probably why they’ve mainly been ignored.

Regarding the bit in bold - you can’t persuade someone who doesn’t want persuading 

As I just commented (in response to SWs reply to Glen) - has the club offered any ‘proof’ that cheaper prices won’t increase sales - or do they just fall back on ‘our data says…?

Edited May 13, 2023 by wilsdenrover

[glen9mullan]

13 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Thank you for this 😀

I was going to comment on the use of ‘consultation’…

All your suggestions sound very sensible - which is probably why they’ve mainly been ignored.

Regarding the bit in bold - you can’t persuade someone who doesn’t want persuading 

As I just commented (in response to SWs reply to Glen) - has the club offered any ‘proof’ that cheaper prices won’t increase sales - or so they just fall back on ‘our data says…?

Its just laziness.

They dont get from behind their desk and see no further than the end of their noses.

They are reliant on the good faith of the remaining season ticket holders to renew regardless, and those they lose that others replace them.

The strategy if they want to call it that, is purely putting a price to it, stick it on website, email and tweet out.

How many recieved a renewal pack? Do we even send these?

How many marketing research letters have we recieved or canvassing?

Bar through an email, I dont recall any.

Certain supporters still dont do online/emails etc. They've handicapped one demographic right there by not considering this fact.

I couldn't imagine my mum or dad even knowing how to send an email let alone login to a portal.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by glen9mullan

[Upside Down]

1 hour ago, glen9mullan said:

Morning all,

 

I've recieved quite a long detailed response from Steve this morning.

I will digest it further and put the response on here later.

Main points.

1. He consulted with the Rovers Trust and Fans Forum over the strategy.

2. The early bird gave 2 pay days which was generous.

3. Owners have been generous allowing the early bird discount given rising operational cost.

4. Best sales in 5 years.

5. Pricing was based on data, i.e reducing them there was nothing to suggest that it would increase sales.

6. Would of been one of cheapest premier league tickets had we been promoted.

7. Club expecting 90% renewal rate and 1500 to 2000 new season ticket holders.

8. Club gained Gold award for engagement and family excellence 

 

I will post full response tomorrow .

Literally speechless. 

[Sweaty Gussets]

36 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

After consultation with representatives of the Supporters Trust and the Fans Forum it was agreed that we would get the 23/24 season tickets on sale as soon as possible. Following discussions with the Owners the super-saver period was announced on the afternoon of Friday 24^th March 2023 the earliest we have gone out on sale for many years.

Bolton had theirs on sale from 3rd Feb 2023....nearly two months prior to ours. 

So just because we are a bit less shit than last year doesn't make it good. It's a low bar that Waggott is happy to fall over and then claim a victory. 

36 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

We have seen that the suggestion of reducing costs by half would see the volume of tickets sold double does not correlate; this has been tested throughout the season to allow us to base our decision on data.

Is he really basing projected season ticket sales on irregular match day offers or 5-match bundles. It's like comparing relative pricing for a weekend away in a B&B with the mortgage costs of buying a house. Plus most of those games were on TV. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Sweaty Gussets

[wilsdenrover]

1 minute ago, glen9mullan said:

Its just laziness.

They dont get from behind their desk and see no further than the end of their noses.

They are reliant on the good faith of the remaining season ticket holders to renew regardless, and those they lose that others replace them.

The strategy if they want to call it that, is purely price putting a price to it, stick it on website, email and tweet out.

How many recieved a renewal pack? Do we even send these?

How many marketing research letters have we recieved or canvassing?

Bar through an email, I dont recall any.

Certain supporters still dont do online/emails etc. They've handicapped one demographic right there by not considering this fact.

I couldn't imagine my mum or dad even knowing how to send an email let alone login to a portal.

 

I think they’re also reliant on fans taking them at their word - which seems ludicrous  given the last 12 and a half years.

I get emails from the club re tickets, including season tickets - but no follow up to find out why I’m not purchasing or what, if anything would make me do so.

Maybe they’ll claim GDPR prevents them from doing so, but I don’t believe this is the case.

 

[Hasta]

35 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Supporters could have therefore locked in a price of £379 (adults) for a potential Premier League season, which would be one of, if not the cheapest Premier League season ticket.

If he had done any research on our local competitors pricing at all he would know that Burnley’s prices start from £335, and they knew they were in the Premier league months ago. So clearly he should know we would not be THE cheapest in the premier league.

[wilsdenrover]

21 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Bolton had theirs on sale from 3rd Feb 2023....nearly two months prior to ours. 

So just because we are a bit less shit than last year doesn't make it good. It's a low bar that Waggott is happy to fall over and then claim a victory. 

Is he really basing projected season ticket sales on irregular match day offers or 5-match bundles. It's like comparing relative pricing for a weekend away in a B&B with the mortgage costs of buying a house. Plus most of those games were on TV.

Maybe I’m giving him too much credit, but I wouldn’t put it past him creating these bundles just to ‘show’ that lower prices don’t make a difference.

Like you say, he’s comparing two things which aren’t comparable - it’s just whether or not he’s aware that he’s doing so.

Edited May 13, 2023 by wilsdenrover

[glen9mullan]

Be interesting on brfcs alone, what would be the trigger to those who aint got a season ticket yet, what the trigger would be to buy one.

Id also be interested how crowd data from last season can be deemee reliable given we spent most of the season having our games selected for tv or being moved from 3pm saturday kick offs.

The revenue generated from that be an interesting number too

Edited May 13, 2023 by glen9mullan

[Sweaty Gussets]

Just now, wilsdenrover said:

Maybe I’m giving him too much credit, but I wouldn’t put it past him creating these bundles just to ‘show’ that lower prices don’t make a difference.

Like you say, he’s comparing to things which aren’t comparable - it’s just whether or not he’s aware that he’s doing so.

He's either stupid or he thinks the fanbase is stupid. 

[wilsdenrover]

2 minutes ago, Hasta said:

If he had done any research on our local competitors pricing at all he would know that Burnley’s prices start from £335, and they knew they were in the Premier league months ago. So clearly he should know we would not be THE cheapest in the premier league.

They could have course said it’s x price before x date whichever league we’re in and after that date, the price remains the same if we didn’t go up, but increased if we did.

[Hasta]

Just now, wilsdenrover said:

They could have course said it’s x price before x date whichever league we’re in and after that date, the price remains the same if we didn’t go up, but increased if we did.

That takes brain power.

[wilsdenrover]

1 minute ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

He's either stupid or he thinks the fanbase is stupid. 

Personally I think he’s stupid and he thinks the fanbase is stupid.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, glen9mullan said:

Be interesting on brfcs alone, what would be the trigger to those who aint got a season ticket yet, what the trigger would be to buy one

The same price as Preston. £280 till 4th June.

Edited May 13, 2023 by rigger

[Upside Down]

2 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

He's either stupid or he thinks the fanbase is stupid. 

Both.

[Sweaty Gussets]

Just now, glen9mullan said:

Be interesting on brfcs alone, what would be the trigger to those who aint got a season ticket yet, what the trigger would be to buy one

Not moving half the home games from 3pm Sat slot and still charging full whack for a ST. 

If you can only make 10 home matches then you're paying £40 a match. 

Not the clubs fault, but buying a ST under those conditions is just a compete rip-off.

[wilsdenrover]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

That takes brain power.

Not much though (I thought of it 😁) - but I take your point regarding SW…

[Mattyblue]

The amount of disingenuous spin in that. He knows full well that we won’t have 90% renewal, he knows full well we won’t beat last season’s figure, he knows full well that it isn’t a £50 reduction for the vast majority.

The man is a disgrace.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Mattyblue

[Sweaty Gussets]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

The amount of disingenuous spin in that. He knows full well that we won’t beat last season’s figure,

Looks like we will, and then that defeats your argument. 

The real argument is comparisons with other clubs in our local area and their sales figures - not if we sell 200 more ST's this year than last year. 

[wilsdenrover]

3 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Be interesting on brfcs alone, what would be the trigger to those who aint got a season ticket yet, what the trigger would be to buy one

Are you talking price or something else?

[Mattyblue]

9 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Looks like we will, and then that defeats your argument. 

The real argument is comparisons with other clubs in our local area and their sales figures - not if we sell 200 more ST's this year than last year. 

That’s a defeat I’d be delighted to take on the chin. I’d take 9,500 with both hands from here. 

He honestly reckons we are going to sell another 2,500 from here, after a £50 hike, so now £429 to £550, with another hike (I believe) in a couple of weeks? I just don’t believe him and he’ll actually be coming out with a load of mealy mouthed excuses to why we didn’t get close in the September Fans Forum instead.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Mattyblue

[Hasta]

The riverside is a shed with significantly inferior facilities to the other stands.

Make the Riverside £290, and match day prices of £18 regardless of opposition. 

Id guess practically all of the season ticket holders in the JW and BBE wouldn’t move and would be happy with the £50 early bird discount, but suddenly there isn’t an argument that we are uncompetitive against our neighbours or do not offer an entry level price. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Hasta

[Sweaty Gussets]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

That’s a defeat I’d be delighted to take on the chin. I’d take 9,500 with both hands from here. 

He honestly reckons we are going to sell another 2,500 from here, after a £50 hike, so now £429 to £550, with another hike (I believe) in a couple of weeks? I just don’t believe him. 

 

we only need to sell 1600 from here to beat last seasons Full ST sales - was it not 8.6k by the end of August 22?

[Sweaty Gussets]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

The riverside is a shed with significantly inferior facilities to the other stands.

Make the Riverside £290, and match day prices of £18 regardless of opposition. 

Id guess practically all of the season ticket holders in the JW and BBE wouldn’t move and would be happy with the £50 early bird discount, but suddenly there isn’t an argument that we are uncompetitive against our neighbours or do not offer an entry level price. 

It should deffo be the cheapest stand, but I'm sure Waggott will have 'data' on why everybody would move en masse from the other stands to the RS. 

RS - £250

BBE - £300

JWL - £325

JWU - £400