Blackburn End: Waggott Out

[wilsdenrover]

14 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

I find these numbers fascinating, when considering our board back then, to the board now, especially given the walkers Trust investment was not that great back then

Breakdown of turnover 2003-2004 vs 2021 - 2022.

They’ve absolutely destroyed us both on and off the pitch…

[wilsdenrover]

Just to add to the above - breakdown of turnover for the final financial year before Venkys bought the club…

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by wilsdenrover

[lraC]

5 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Just to add to the above - breakdown of turnover for the final financial year before Venkys bought the club…

 

This is precisely why the people who spout the we should be grateful to Venky's line, need to have a serious look.

Where we would be without them? Probably at home to Someone like Liverpool in the premier league with almost a full house.

[chaddyrovers]

don't forget that 2020/21 season we have not much ST income and no match day ticket revenue due to Covid. 

[Dreams of 1995]

2 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

 

Out of interest has anyone plotted our last 20 years income, expenditure, losses and crowds?

 

If anyone does do this, and produces it on excel it could provide some very striking graphics

[smiller14]

2 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

Just to add to the above - breakdown of turnover for the final financial year before Venkys bought the club…

 

The differences are stark and that's not even taking inflation into account. Horrible. 

[wilsdenrover]

5 minutes ago, smiller14 said:

The differences are stark and that's not even taking inflation into account. Horrible. 

Nor does it take into account how much more TV revenue the PL now receives.

In 2022, when they finished bottom of the PL, Norwich’s broadcasting revenue was just under £102 million.

[glen9mullan]

Mark and I did finally did have our catch up with Waggott last night for a couple of hours. (I believe he has also held meetings this week with the FF, the trust and some other supporters).

We will gather our thoughts, and report on those discussions at some point over the next couple of days 

Edited November 23, 2023 by glen9mullan

[Rogerb]

For the Leeds game I notice that for a senior there is a £1 difference between the Riverside and the outer wings of the jack walker upper eg ww11. It used to be the case there was a substantial price difference. Smacks of closure of the Riverside by stealth by making it less price attractive to reduce the occupancy to justify the closure.

[rigger]

8 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

For the Leeds game I notice that for a senior there is a £1 difference between the Riverside and the outer wings of the jack walker upper eg ww11. It used to be the case there was a substantial price difference. Smacks of closure of the Riverside by stealth by making it less price attractive to reduce the occupancy to justify the closure.

I think that has been the agenda for a while.

[tomphil]

51 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

For the Leeds game I notice that for a senior there is a £1 difference between the Riverside and the outer wings of the jack walker upper eg ww11. It used to be the case there was a substantial price difference. Smacks of closure of the Riverside by stealth by making it less price attractive to reduce the occupancy to justify the closure.

If it's on telly he's trying to lure more over to the camera facing side so he can portray a big home attendance to India, even though it's just the usual hard pressed fans who fork out.

[pedrob2014]

On 23/11/2023 at 08:34, glen9mullan said:

Mark and I did finally did have our catch up with Waggott last night for a couple of hours. (I believe he has also held meetings this week with the FF, the trust and some other supporters).

We will gather our thoughts, and report on those discussions at some point over the next couple of days 

Hi Glen are you in a position to give us any details of your meeting

[glen9mullan]

3 hours ago, pedrob2014 said:

Hi Glen are you in a position to give us any details of your meeting

Sorry, just not had chance yet (some personal things controlling much of daily life). Will try and get an update on before end of week

[glen9mullan]

As promised Mark and I met with the CEO and this is a brief run down of discussions.

 

1. Bridging loan - Taken out by Venkys against the training ground, using a long standing relationship with UK based businessman. The plan is this to be short term and they intend clearing it as soon as there is a relaxing of funds from India. They had to put up Parent company guarantees, but the liability of the loan remains with Venkys and won't appear as in the club accounts. The funds were made available to aid cash flow and ensure priority bills were paid.

2. Cash flow - although challenging the club has paid all priority bills, or renegotiated terms during the period up until and including the cash injection earlier this month, this includes all bonuses. No wages or bonuses have been deferred by anyone at the club.

3. Cash injection - the club are relieved with the 11 million or so which had been sanctioned by the Indian courts. Its a less than ideal situation as substantiation must be provided with each application and only bills, operating costs will be sanctioned. The money cannot be diverted to transfer funds and will be auditable on future applications. This money was to see the club until December 2023.

4. What's the plan for funds for the rest of the season? The club has once again put together a list of bills which will need to be paid, this will again go to the courts for authority to pay, the club are confident this will also be sanctioned.

5. Does that mean no transfer funds? If there is not a relaxation in India, then funds will need to be generated via player trading

6. Venkys sponsorship - Club taken 3 years payment of the 5 year deal in advance to cover cash flow.

7. DOF/CEO model, who decided this? This was Venkys Idea after seeing other clubs use this approach.

8. Have you taken paycut to fund a second person doing something you previously did on your own?  No

9. We have had a good record previous to a DOF of buying players with a good sell on value, is it fair to say that most of our playing assets are now from the academy, who have a genuine decent value? CEO acknowledged that our assets are from within rather than those purchased. It was noted that Hyam, Smodzics etc were scouted prior to the new Management set up and have been a success in terms of purchase price, but also the previous recruitment team.

10. Are you on a rolling contract/fixed contract? Notice period from either side required to terminate.

11. Season tickets - Club recommended a much lower price to India, in particular on the early bird,  however this was not acceptable and they set a higher opening early bird offer. It was acknowledged that the early bird offer didn't help low income families with the short duration and the club needs to learn from this. It was also acknowledged that the price was a stumbling block and something they will be looking at. However a large drop in price would have much wider implications if the club needed to later increase these year upon year, with the rises being much steeper for the club to remain viable in terms of minimum revenue required to operate within FFP.

12. Shirt launch - How do we launch a shirt and sell out within 2 hours?  The club ordered 15000 shirts, and he feels the launch was great success, obviously we need to sell all stock as 15000 was big commitment, however the limited opening batch was out of the clubs control with all shirts ordered in good time. The lack of shirts was not related to the clubs funding issues.

13. Closing the Blackburn End - the club received a number of complaints and hindsight is a wonderful thing. With cash flow a major issue at this time, the club attempted to try and limit match day costs. As CEO, he needed to look through a wider lense if funds were not forthcoming.  Being responsible for the lights being able to be turned on was the priority during a challenging period and the decision was not taken lightly.

14. Shaw will be remembered for a fax machine, and you for a coach you didn't buy but said you did? After a debate it was agreed the coach was a lease and we asked him to admit saying otherwise has become a standing joke with JDT. He stated they wanted to put some positive PR out as the coach is state of the art. We told him, that the demographic he is preaching to, some can't afford a holiday or the basics and it was a poor effort to appease the fans.

15. We asked what he feels is his achievements to date as CEO? He said stabilising the Club during the bad press. We challenged had he stabled the club or have those more vocal given him time and patience to rebuild? We pointed out crowd's have continued to dwindle,  and season ticket holder retention should be one of his main priorities l. It's no good selling 800 new season ticket holders, if you are losing a 1000 existing ones. We pointed out that they have not left their offices, gone out to the masses in and around the area, surrounding areas , put pop-ups up or to date given supporters a reason to return.

16. Is there any redundancies planned as part of the cut-backs? Not at this time, some have left employment for other reasons and these won't be replaced.

17. Supporter consultation meetings, why have they ceased , we do not believe meeting the FF in isolation instead of an open forum ticks the leagues mandate following consultation with the league ? He disputed this, but was happy to be corrected if that's the case. They stopped because of covid, but would be open to them restarting instead of multiple meetings, if there is genuine interest from supporters to attend a more open forum.

18. New Indian Based Commercial Director - He is cc'd on emails as a director however to date, has not got involved with Ewood and is not on the pay role.  The other Indian based directors are also not paid by Rovers, though Gupta does attend meetings and in particular surrounding finance. He plays a more active role, than is forseen with this new appointment which is more of a tick box exercise.

19. JDT contract - it is a 3 year deal with no talks of a new contract planned at this stage, he is ambitious. We asked why JDT thinks he was sold a pup?  He reiterated that its the same job as its always been with no pressure on league position. Its always been about developing and trading regardless of financial restrictions this summer.

20. Did we adopt quantity over quality this summer ? It was acknowledged that not all signings have worked out yet, either this season or last. We've had to take more chances , but some players take longer than others to settle.

21. Have the EFL or football league asked questions or taken closer look at Rovers since the investigations India?  He stated he talks weekly with both parties and at no point had their been any discussions or contact either formally or informally. The club are completely compliant.

22. Given the fans found out the bad news from the press, as it appears he does, is he aware of any more bombshells from India, that have yet to hit print? He said he was not aware of anything and Mr Desai has repeatedly reiterated the owners commitment to providing funds.

23. When does he think we wil be clear, so funds can be provided normally? He does not know beyond the short term facility in place.  He is confident that although substantiation is required to get funds signed off, that there should be no blockers to prevent these funds being transferred. He again reiterated the owners long term commitment.

24. Have they considered partnering with a credit union or endorsing one to offer supporters a facility to save for season tickets, given not all appear yo even pass the strict finance criteria by the clubs credit provider? He was interested on how this could work and would be open to looking at various options to aid affordability over a period of time, providing the club were not responsible/liable for the savings.

25. Large agent fees - We asked why the agent fees were so big? He stated some are historical and on long payment terms, so this is not just recent spend, it's cumulative of a number of seasons.

26. Loan from league during covid - Its been a bit of a noose but the final repayment will be made in January.

Above is just brief and I will happily have a chat off line with anyone who wants me to elaborate 

Edited December 4, 2023 by glen9mullan

[Gav]

Thanks for the insight Glen and taking the time to give a toss 👍

[roversfan99]

Its a depressing read. It sounds like Venkys have just totally washed their hands of us and it is genuinely up in the air whether day to day bills are paid.

[Upside Down]

And there we have it.

Venkys have never had any desire whatsoever to get this club back to the premier league. To say otherwise is at best total delusion.

19. JDT contract - it is a 3 year deal with no talks of a new contract planned at this stage, he is ambitious. We asked why JDT thinks he was sold a pup?  He reiterated that its the same job as its always been with no pressure on league position. Its always been about developing and trading regardless of financial restrictions this summer.

[47er]

It sounds like we are going to experience more of the same for years to come.

Limping along on a shoestring, charging prices locals can't or won't pay and seeing the goal of Premier league football as elusive as ever (that's our goal of course, not theirs.)

Edited December 4, 2023 by 47er

[Waggy76]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Its a depressing read. It sounds like Venkys have just totally washed their hands of us and it is genuinely up in the air whether day to day bills are paid.

Bring adminstration on !

 

[simongarnerisgod]

1 minute ago, Waggy76 said:

Bring adminstration on !

 

in the long term,it would be the best option imo,the indians have no desire to see us progress,never have and never will

[Upside Down]

The most depressing part of this was that they said they were committed to the club.

[Mattyblue]

‘Hindsight is a wonderful thing’, maybe try understanding your fanbase and you wouldn’t need it…

[wilsdenrover]

2 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

As promised Mark and I met with the CEO and this is a brief run down of discussions.

 

1. Bridging loan - Taken out by Venkys against the training ground, using a long standing relationship with UK based businessman. The plan is this to be short term and they intend clearing it as soon as there is a relaxing of funds from India. They had to put up Parent company guarantees, but the liability of the loan remains with Venkys and won't appear as in the club accounts. The funds were made available to aid cash flow and ensure priority bills were paid.

2. Cash flow - although challenging the club has paid all priority bills, or renegotiated terms during the period up until and including the cash injection earlier this month, this includes all bonuses. No wages or bonuses have been deferred by anyone at the club.

3. Cash injection - the club are relieved with the 11 million or so which had been sanctioned by the Indian courts. Its a less than ideal situation as substantiation must be provided with each application and only bills, operating costs will be sanctioned. The money cannot be diverted to transfer funds and will be auditable on future applications. This money was to see the club until December 2023.

4. What's the plan for funds for the rest of the season? The club has once again put together a list of bills which will need to be paid, this will again go to the courts for authority to pay, the club are confident this will also be sanctioned.

5. Does that mean no transfer funds? If there is not a relaxation in India, then funds will need to be generated via player trading

6. Venkys sponsorship - Club taken 3 years payment of the 5 year deal in advance to cover cash flow.

7. DOF/CEO model, who decided this? This was Venkys Idea after seeing other clubs use this approach.

8. Have you taken paycut to fund a second person doing something you previously did on your own?  No

9. We have had a good record previous to a DOF of buying players with a good sell on value, is it fair to say that most of our playing assets are now from the academy, who have a genuine decent value? CEO acknowledged that our assets are from within rather than those purchased. It was noted that Hyam, Smodzics etc were scouted prior to the new Management set up and have been a success in terms of purchase price, but also the previous recruitment team.

10. Are you on a rolling contract/fixed contract? Notice period from either side required to terminate.

11. Season tickets - Club recommended a much lower price to India, in particular on the early bird,  however this was not acceptable and they set a higher opening early bird offer. It was acknowledged that the early bird offer didn't help low income families with the short duration and the club needs to learn from this. It was also acknowledged that the price was a stumbling block and something they will be looking at. However a large drop in price would have much wider implications if the club needed to later increase these year upon year, with the rises being much steeper for the club to remain viable in terms of minimum revenue required to operate within FFP.

12. Shirt launch - How do we launch a shirt and sell out within 2 hours?  The club ordered 15000 shirts, and he feels the launch was great success, obviously we need to sell all stock as 15000 was big commitment, however the limited opening batch was out of the clubs control with all shirts ordered in good time. The lack of shirts was not related to the clubs funding issues.

13. Closing the Blackburn End - the club received a number of complaints and hindsight is a wonderful thing. With cash flow a major issue at this time, the club attempted to try and limit match day costs. As CEO, he needed to look through a wider lense if funds were not forthcoming.  Being responsible for the lights being able to be turned on was the priority during a challenging period and the decision was not taken lightly.

14. Shaw will be remembered for a fax machine, and you for a coach you didn't buy but said you did? After a debate it was agreed the coach was a lease and we asked him to admit saying otherwise has become a standing joke with JDT. He stated they wanted to put some positive PR out as the coach is state of the art. We told him, that the demographic he is preaching to, some can't afford a holiday or the basics and it was a poor effort to appease the fans.

15. We asked what he feels is his achievements to date as CEO? He said stabilising the Club during the bad press. We challenged had he stabled the club or have those more vocal given him time and patience to rebuild? We pointed out crowd's have continued to dwindle,  and season ticket holder retention should be one of his main priorities l. It's no good selling 800 new season ticket holders, if you are losing a 1000 existing ones. We pointed out that they have not left their offices, gone out to the masses in and around the area, surrounding areas , put pop-ups up or to date given supporters a reason to return.

16. Is there any redundancies planned as part of the cut-backs? Not at this time, some have left employment for other reasons and these won't be replaced.

17. Supporter consultation meetings, why have they ceased , we do not believe meeting the FF in isolation instead of an open forum ticks the leagues mandate following consultation with the league ? He disputed this, but was happy to be corrected if that's the case. They stopped because of covid, but would be open to them restarting instead of multiple meetings, if there is genuine interest from supporters to attend a more open forum.

18. New Indian Based Commercial Director - He is cc'd on emails as a director however to date, has not got involved with Ewood and is not on the pay role.  The other Indian based directors are also not paid by Rovers, though Gupta does attend meetings and in particular surrounding finance. He plays a more active role, than is forseen with this new appointment which is more of a tick box exercise.

19. JDT contract - it is a 3 year deal with no talks of a new contract planned at this stage, he is ambitious. We asked why JDT thinks he was sold a pup?  He reiterated that its the same job as its always been with no pressure on league position. Its always been about developing and trading regardless of financial restrictions this summer.

20. Did we adopt quantity over quality this summer ? It was acknowledged that not all signings have worked out yet, either this season or last. We've had to take more chances , but some players take longer than others to settle.

21. Have the EFL or football league asked questions or taken closer look at Rovers since the investigations India?  He stated he talks weekly with both parties and at no point had their been any discussions or contact either formally or informally. The club are completely compliant.

22. Given the fans found out the bad news from the press, as it appears he does, is he aware of any more bombshells from India, that have yet to hit print? He said he was not aware of anything and Mr Desai has repeatedly reiterated the owners commitment to providing funds.

23. When does he think we wil be clear, so funds can be provided normally? He does not know beyond the short term facility in place.  He is confident that although substantiation is required to get funds signed off, that there should be no blockers to prevent these funds being transferred. He again reiterated the owners long term commitment.

24. Have they considered partnering with a credit union or endorsing one to offer supporters a facility to save for season tickets, given not all appear yo even pass the strict finance criteria by the clubs credit provider? He was interested on how this could work and would be open to looking at various options to aid affordability over a period of time, providing the club were not responsible/liable for the savings.

25. Large agent fees - We asked why the agent fees were so big? He stated some are historical and on long payment terms, so this is not just recent spend, it's cumulative of a number of seasons.

26. Loan from league during covid - Its been a bit of a noose but the final repayment will be made in January.

Above is just brief and I will happily have a chat off line with anyone who wants me to elaborate 

Regarding points 4 and 5.

If we sell a player, what’s to stop the Indian court saying that money should be used to pay the bills (and therefore refusing to sanction more funds being sent over)?

[glen9mullan]

19 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Regarding points 4 and 5.

If we sell a player, what’s to stop the Indian court saying that money should be used to pay the bills (and therefore refusing to sanction more funds being sent over)?

We asked this question and that's not a likely scenario. Ultimately its Venkys Money not the Indian goverments.  Its only because they've moved money previously into over endeavours which has not been used as recorded/suggested.

There is no suggestion any money sent to Ewood has ever been spent on anything bar what it was intended for.

[wilsdenrover]

4 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

We asked this question and that's not a likely scenario. Ultimately its Venkys Money not the Indian goverments.  Its only because they've moved money previously into over endeavours which has not been used as recorded/suggested.

There is no suggestion any money sent to Ewood has ever been spent on anything bar what it was intended for.

Thank you.

Did they have a date for going to court?