v Cardiff City (h) - 21/10/2023

[KentExile]

59 minutes ago, BigUts said:

What's all this pivot and double pivot stuff?

Do you mean 2 central midfielders?

Specifically pivot relates to the deepest lying midfielder/s, so either 1 or 2 midfielders in front of the defence either as sitting defensive midfielder/s or deep lying playmaker/s

Edited October 16, 2023 by KentExile

[Mattyblue]

‘He’s a number 6’ ‘a number 8’ makes me laugh 30 years after they scrapped 1-11.

[Lancaster Rover]

Yeah but numbers are a good reference point to highlight changes in the way the game is played and to explain specific roles. A double pivot is very different to 2 central midfielders. Historically most teams played 4-4-2 where a 6 would be the more conservative and the 8 would be up and down. A double pivot is neither. 

The idea of a double pivot is that the ball is constantly moving, with the pivots being responsible for that linkage plus adding a screen to the back 4. It's a really difficult position to play and requires a great deal of maturity. I'm not sure Wharton is best placed in one of those roles as he is more of a classic deep lying playmaker a la Tugay, Pirlo, he doesn't offer much protection for the back 4 and his passes are much more progressive than a pivot. I'm not sure who goes in there alongside Sonny to be honest as Travis is more water carrier than someone who can constantly rotate possession.

[roverandout]

On 15/10/2023 at 08:23, Tugayisgod said:

Sorry for your loss rover

Condolences to you and family

Thanks tugay

[Mattyblue]

I get why they do it, but it’s only just become the in vogue thing thirty years later.

[K-Hod]

Is a pivot a position? Or is it just a defensive mid in old money?

[joey_big_nose]

37 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Is a pivot a position? Or is it just a defensive mid in old money?

I suppose defensive mid who can pass. A player who likes to sit in front of the defence and rarely gets forward but keeps the ball moving with accurate passing.

When Mourinho rocked up at Chelsea and everyone started playing 4231 with two defensive mids (effectively trading one striker in a 442 for an extra DM in 4231) it was very very rubbish for football.

Thought we were past that. Think there must be a happy medium between beings super conservative two DMs all the time, or going for the gungho 433 thing which means the one DM is left entirely on his own in the middle of the park. Would hate to go from one extreme to the other. TBH last couple of games have been pretty well balanced imo, with Tronstad as the single DM/pivot but JRC making sure he helps out and doesnt disappear off into the final third all game, so id just stick with that.

Edited October 16, 2023 by joey_big_nose

[dingles staying down 4ever]

1 hour ago, Lancaster Rover said:

Yeah but numbers are a good reference point to highlight changes in the way the game is played and to explain specific roles. A double pivot is very different to 2 central midfielders. Historically most teams played 4-4-2 where a 6 would be the more conservative and the 8 would be up and down. A double pivot is neither. 

The idea of a double pivot is that the ball is constantly moving, with the pivots being responsible for that linkage plus adding a screen to the back 4. It's a really difficult position to play and requires a great deal of maturity. I'm not sure Wharton is best placed in one of those roles as he is more of a classic deep lying playmaker a la Tugay, Pirlo, he doesn't offer much protection for the back 4 and his passes are much more progressive than a pivot. I'm not sure who goes in there alongside Sonny to be honest as Travis is more water carrier than someone who can constantly rotate possession.

I would never call Faz or David Mail midfielders they both wore no.6. No. 6 usually was one of the central defensive pairing. No.4 or 8 were the midfielders

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, BigUts said:

What's all this pivot and double pivot stuff?

Do you mean 2 central midfielders?

Basically its a deep layer playmaker/defensive midfielder with 2 box to box midfielders. 

          Wahlstedt

Hill Carter Hyam Brittain

            Tronstad

    Szmodics Wharton

Moran               Sigurdsson

            Leonard

When we are defending we are 4-1-4-1 and when we are attacking we are 3-2-4-1 with Brittain moving in centre midfield with Tronstad. 

[tomphil]

55 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Is a pivot a position? Or is it just a defensive mid in old money?

Corry Evans was doing it here almost a decade ago although there was no such thing as a forward pass with him of course.

I heard him described in a few different terms !

[Lancaster Rover]

The difference with Evans and Travis is that they're water carriers, moving the ball for moving its sake with little to no reasoning. A 'pivot' player who is someone who moves the ball to open space in other areas to utilise 3rd man runs, etc. Evans and Travis are players who pad out their stats by making 4 or 5 yard passes with little to no thought IMO.

[roversfan99]

More self entitled bollocks making people seem like they know what they are talking about.

Why is a number 6 now considered a midfielder? Always a centre back.

[tomphil]

12 hours ago, Umair said:

Need to Get Brittain and JRC in the same team, wouldnt be against Callum at LB. because Pickering hasnt been great as of right now. But a natural left back will be chosen. 

We're a better team without travis in the squad, who is awful in the box to box role compared to Garrett, JRC and Wharton. Maybe Szmodics as the 8. Tronstad Holding and Wharton with Sonny as the double pivot, gives another Goalscoer a chance to play, Maybe, Ennis or Telalovic. Good thing we have depth across the front, and middle line, just would like a couple of defensive reinforcements, like at LB and Centre Half to replace Scott Wharton

 

Personally, i would go for a flat back 4 of Brittain Hill Hyam and Pickering, obviouly the full  backs inverted. a double pivot of JRC and Wharton, Szmodics as the number 8. Siggy Left, Moran right and Ennis/Telalovic leading the line

 

Can't agree on Garret or Wharton being better at the box to box stuff than Travis.

Garret is still a bit too raw to be starting although should be a decent future replacement for Trav, Wharton i prefer further forward or as a traditional centre mid but he certainly isn't a box to box grafter, which we need in this system.

Telalovic is miles off at the min so no point asking him to lead any lines and Ennis, well it would be nice but it would also be a surprise to see him start.

[roversfan99]

Nonsense that Travis should be dumped out of the squad too. He isnt awful at going box to box, problem this season is when he is played, he is instructed to go really high up and he is really good at winning the ball back but having him so far forward in an already attacking team leaves us exposed.

Garrett is unproven and Wharton is best playing from deep as long as hes given a bit of help.

It would be harsh to drop Dolan after scoring too. There is a space on the right so I would have him there but I expect the same side as v QPR but with Brittain over Markanday.

Moran will presumably miss out with injury.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Is a pivot a position? Or is it just a defensive mid in old money?

It's just an old defensive midfielder that the team 'pivots' around in both attack and defence.

As some think, it's not a play style, rather just a position. A double pivot basically means the 4231 formation. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Mellor Rover

[Blow-in]

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

Corry Evans was doing it here almost a decade ago although there was no such thing as a forward pass with him of course.

I heard him described in a few different terms !

Corey Evans played for us?

I knew he was on the books but I don't remember him actually playing 😄

[K-Hod]

40 minutes ago, Blow-in said:

Corey Evans played for us?

I knew he was on the books but I don't remember him actually playing 😄

He played for Northern Ireland and was on loan to us, I think, ha.

Effectively a centrally contracted player, like in cricket 😏.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

47 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

He played for Northern Ireland and was on loan to us, I think, ha.

Effectively a centrally contracted player, like in cricket 😏.

Only in reverse as we paid the wages not the ECB [or its equivalent] 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, dingles staying down 4ever said:

Only in reverse as we paid the wages not the ECB [or its equivalent] 

Such was the way his career here was managed around his international commitments i often wondered if in fact they were making some kind of contribution to his contract.

[joey_big_nose]

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Nonsense that Travis should be dumped out of the squad too. He isnt awful at going box to box, problem this season is when he is played, he is instructed to go really high up and he is really good at winning the ball back but having him so far forward in an already attacking team leaves us exposed.

Garrett is unproven and Wharton is best playing from deep as long as hes given a bit of help.

It would be harsh to drop Dolan after scoring too. There is a space on the right so I would have him there but I expect the same side as v QPR but with Brittain over Markanday.

Moran will presumably miss out with injury.

Agree with this in bold. But given Tronstad and JRC looked so good think Wharton and Travis will be warming the bench for the next game at least.

[roversfan99]

11 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Agree with this in bold. But given Tronstad and JRC looked so good think Wharton and Travis will be warming the bench for the next game at least.

I definitely wouldnt put Travis back in but to drop him from the squad.

I would agree that those 2 are the strongest choices. Wharton is hard to leave out though so its a tough one.

[unsall]

See the Icelandic manager has kept his word to JDT and starting Sigurdson in one match only, due to his recent injuries, let’s hope he doesn’t come off the bench, and be fresh for Saturday.

[bazza]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

More self entitled bollocks making people seem like they know what they are talking about.

Why is a number 6 now considered a midfielder? Always a centre back.

Depends when you were born and when you watched football as a youngster. Back in my day No6 was Left Half e.g. Mick McGrath. No5, the centre half, had dropped back in line with the full backs. But yes, when 4-4-2 was the line up it was usually 5 and 6 as centre backs.

[Guest]

Reight. Football has always been a 'fashion' business, as every aspiring team tries to emulate the style and tactics of the most successful of their day. The only thing that changes is the length of the shorts, the percentage of skin covered in stoopid tats, and the distance between any kind of meaningful success and the trophy cabinet at t'Turd.

Saturday's game is a potential banana skin for the Rovers. Cardiff won't want to risk another tonking, so will be a very different proposition from the Tonkees of Carabao. Rovers will want to regain the momentum they found briefly at Loftus Rd or whatever woke nonsense name its got this week.

Am expecting a dour battle, with Rovers edging it by a goal or so..

Won't be surprised if the Bluebirds rain on the parade (Rovers are too unpredictably schizo at the moment).

Will be very pleasantly surprised if it is a footballing feast fit for fanatics.

COYB!

VENKY VENKY VENKYS - OUT OUT OUT!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Basically its a deep layer playmaker/defensive midfielder with 2 box to box midfielders. 

          Wahlstedt

Hill Carter Hyam Brittain

            Tronstad

    Szmodics Wharton

Moran               Sigurdsson

            Leonard

When we are defending we are 4-1-4-1 and when we are attacking we are 3-2-4-1 with Brittain moving in centre midfield with Tronstad. 

I’d like better than Leonard up front and I’d swap Moran and Szmodics around in that line up.