v Millwall (a) - 24/10/2023

[Atko's Engine]

I can't believe how folk seem to expect perfection from players at this level.  Leo made a mistake, clearly; point out to me a keeper this season who hasn't. His oppo last night, one of the most experienced 'keepers at this level who I think 8 out of 10 of us would've been happy to sign in summer, also had a shocker. Leo made a top class save on Saturday to win us 2 points.  Why the need to be so critical now & say we need a 3rd goalkeeper when he's been here 5 minutes? 

All good keepers make howlers; at least Leo seemed to shrug it off last night & do a good job thereafter. And don't anyone say it's just someone expressing an opinion on the internet so it doesn't matter; it does, just ask Dolan. Criticism is fine if it's constructive & objective.

Great win last night, two lovely goals from our perspective, good recovery from a poor start, great resilience to aerial bombardment, and made all the sweeter for me with it being part of a 30/1 acca that made me £300, despite Manure doing their best to put the skids on it in the 94th minute!

Onana, top keeper!!! (Feels like this post has come full circle now!)

 

[Bbrovers2288]

Best championship keeper in recent memory for me was Brice samba at forest, he was always unbelievable against us 

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

Sounds perverse but I’d argue we actually look more dangerous as a team with goals coming from everywhere than having one striker get them all. Still in need of a new striker but goal scoring hasn’t been the issue so far this season. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

I can't believe how folk seem to expect perfection from players at this level.  Leo made a mistake, clearly; point out to me a keeper this season who hasn't. His oppo last night, one of the most experienced 'keepers at this level who I think 8 out of 10 of us would've been happy to sign in summer, also had a shocker. Leo made a top class save on Saturday to win us 2 points.  Why the need to be so critical now & say we need a 3rd goalkeeper when he's been here 5 minutes? 

All good keepers make howlers; at least Leo seemed to shrug it off last night & do a good job thereafter. And don't anyone say it's just someone expressing an opinion on the internet so it doesn't matter; it does, just ask Dolan. Criticism is fine if it's constructive & objective.

Great win last night, two lovely goals from our perspective, good recovery from a poor start, great resilience to aerial bombardment, and made all the sweeter for me with it being part of a 30/1 acca that made me £300, despite Manure doing their best to put the skids on it in the 94th minute!

Onana, top keeper!!! (Feels like this post has come full circle now!)

 

Who has demanded perfection? The goalkeeper made a shocking error and has seemingly caused concern beyond me with his refusal/inability to catch basic crosses. Surely its fair to air that.

Thankfully, some excellent last ditch defending meant that afterwards he was barely troubled.

You mention Dolan, but surely someone who at the time went 26 games without a goal and was generally performing poor is fair game?

[BigBar]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

Seems a bit harsh, when he hasn’t made anywhere near the same amount of appearances. Granted, he has made mistakes, that’s undeniable.

As I said they are both dodgy. Take both of their last 3-5 appearances as a comparison and I'd say they have made similar errors with Leo's being the worst of them last night, cannot deny that.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

I can't believe how folk seem to expect perfection from players at this level.  Leo made a mistake, clearly; point out to me a keeper this season who hasn't. His oppo last night, one of the most experienced 'keepers at this level who I think 8 out of 10 of us would've been happy to sign in summer, also had a shocker. Leo made a top class save on Saturday to win us 2 points.  Why the need to be so critical now & say we need a 3rd goalkeeper when he's been here 5 minutes? 

All good keepers make howlers; at least Leo seemed to shrug it off last night & do a good job thereafter. And don't anyone say it's just someone expressing an opinion on the internet so it doesn't matter; it does, just ask Dolan. Criticism is fine if it's constructive & objective.

Great win last night, two lovely goals from our perspective, good recovery from a poor start, great resilience to aerial bombardment, and made all the sweeter for me with it being part of a 30/1 acca that made me £300, despite Manure doing their best to put the skids on it in the 94th minute!

Onana, top keeper!!! (Feels like this post has come full circle now!)

 

I will never begrudge a goalkeeper. They have a terrible job. Worst on the pitch imo. Because their mistakes cost so much - goals, even points - it brings out really emotive criticism

Leo wasn’t helped yesterday by the presence of Hyam. It was just a recipe for disaster allowing that ball to be headed twice. When you play football you really do understand how the presence of a player running at you can hamper your ability. In this case, I’ve no doubt Leo saw, in his periphery, Hyam coming towards him. It can’t have made it easier 

Goalies will always take unfair criticism. I don’t think his fondness of punching is a bad thing. I only saw one cross yesterday where I thought he could have caught it. Every other time I’d have been happy if my keeper dealt with it as Leo did 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[BigBar]

2 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I will never begrudge a goalkeeper. They have a terrible job. Worst on the pitch imo. Because their mistakes cost so much - goals, even points - it brings out really emotive criticism

Leo wasn’t helped yesterday by the presence of Hyam. It was just a recipe for disaster allowing that ball to be headed twice. When you play football you really do understand how the presence of a player running at you can hamper your ability. In this case, I’ve no doubt Leo saw, in his periphery, Hyam coming towards him. It can’t have made it easier 

Goalies will always take unfair criticism. I don’t even think his fondness of punching is a bad thing. I only saw one cross yesterday where I thought he could have caught it. Every other time I’d have been happy if my keeper dealt with it as Leo did 

Stop making excuses, id expect the keeper to save that if Hyam had him in a headlock nevermind being near him. It's a howler but we move on. Let's call it as it is.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I know l last played when dinosaurs roamed the earth but I would expect the keeper to be totally focussed on the ball and for him to go through anyone in his way to get to it, friend or foe.

[Dreams of 1995]

4 minutes ago, BigBar said:

Stop making excuses, id expect the keeper to save that if Hyam had him in a headlock nevermind being near him. It's a howler but we move on. Let's call it as it is.

I didn’t make an excuse. Watch the video, it’s what happened 

It was an error. When a goalkeeper makes an error it unfortunately costs goals. Lots can contribute to that error though and the players around him certainly would have. You’d expect an outfield player to make a perfect touch every time, but it doesn’t always happen. Fortunately for them it doesn’t always cost as much as a goalkeepers mistake does 

Leo did move on and played well and that’s all that is important now 

[NeilInBristol]

5 hours ago, Herbie6590 said:

This from an Arsenal fan last night took me back…

Modern GKs are being asked to do so much more than we expected before. The younger crop will be different. For now we are going to have to suffer with these calamity mistakes. Look at Raya or onana. Arsenal and manure are "big clubs" and they make the same mistakes

[simongarnerisgod]

1 hour ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Best championship keeper in recent memory for me was Brice samba at forest, he was always unbelievable against us 

proper **** though

[BigBar]

33 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I didn’t make an excuse. Watch the video, it’s what happened 

It was an error. When a goalkeeper makes an error it unfortunately costs goals. Lots can contribute to that error though and the players around him certainly would have. You’d expect an outfield player to make a perfect touch every time, but it doesn’t always happen. Fortunately for them it doesn’t always cost as much as a goalkeepers mistake does 

Leo did move on and played well and that’s all that is important now 

I wouldn't consider a performance containing that degree of error as playing well, given he had very little to do after that he wasnt given the chance to redeem himself. The bar is fairly low if making a horror mistake that leads to a goal and then the basics after that means you played well. Higher standards are required from the players, management and the fans. Too soft for too long now, zero accountability. You can back the players but still be honest.

[Andy]

55 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I will never begrudge a goalkeeper. They have a terrible job. Worst on the pitch imo. Because their mistakes cost so much - goals, even points - it brings out really emotive criticism

Leo wasn’t helped yesterday by the presence of Hyam. It was just a recipe for disaster allowing that ball to be headed twice. When you play football you really do understand how the presence of a player running at you can hamper your ability. In this case, I’ve no doubt Leo saw, in his periphery, Hyam coming towards him. It can’t have made it easier 

Goalies will always take unfair criticism. I don’t think his fondness of punching is a bad thing. I only saw one cross yesterday where I thought he could have caught it. Every other time I’d have been happy if my keeper dealt with it as Leo did 

Agreed on all points, particularly the latter.

The GK's priority is keeping the ball out of the next.
If they choose to do that via their arms, legs, punching the ball or any other way, then that's ok for me.

The error was a big one, but as I said last night, he shook it off and went on to have a very solid game.
He'll move on, as we all will.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Andy

[M_B]

I've been saying for weeks that some of the criticism aimed at Pears was totally unrealistic, ludicrous even. 

The way Wahlsted's mistake has been met with such support and empathy only proves that point. 

[Dreams of 1995]

12 minutes ago, BigBar said:

I wouldn't consider a performance containing that degree of error as playing well, given he had very little to do after that he wasnt given the chance to redeem himself. The bar is fairly low if making a horror mistake that leads to a goal and then the basics after that means you played well. Higher standards are required from the players, management and the fans. Too soft for too long now, zero accountability. You can back the players but still be honest.

I don’t know why you think I’m not being honest. I am

Like I say, footballers make errors every single game. Unfortunately a goalkeepers’ mistake is amplified because of the consequences 

I am just glad you were never on the coaching team for someone I played for. You’d get nowhere with that mentality. Human beings make mistakes. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Dreams of 1995

[BigBar]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I don’t know why you think I’m not being honest. I am

Like I say, footballers make errors every single game. Unfortunately a goalkeepers’ mistake is amplified because of the consequences 

I am just glad you were never on the coaching team for someone I played for. You’d get nowhere with that mentality. Human beings make mistakes. 

I love how you think I can't comprehend humans making mistakes, this might surprise you but I can and I have made plenty. I am judging a professional footballer and saying how it's not really an acceptable error to make and needs to be cut out.

Your point about players mistaking mistakes every game isn't really a fair assessment. That error last night isn't the equivalent of a midfielder miscontrolling a pass, it's the equivalent of missing from a yard out (which no one did). I'm getting drawn into a debate with people who are trying to mask it or justify it more than I care about the error itself. Time to move on regardless. 

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

22 minutes ago, M_B said:

I've been saying for weeks that some of the criticism aimed at Pears was totally unrealistic, ludicrous even. 

The way Wahlsted's mistake has been met with such support and empathy only proves that point. 

Support and empathy?! He’s been criticised by virtually everyone. He’s made one bad mistake but overall has done fine since coming into the team. I also think Pears has been harshly treated by some fans, possibly down to the perception that he was initially only signed because of Mowbray’s connections.

[M_B]

13 minutes ago, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

Support and empathy?! He’s been criticised by virtually everyone. He’s made one bad mistake but overall has done fine since coming into the team. I also think Pears has been harshly treated by some fans, possibly down to the perception that he was initially only signed because of Mowbray’s connections.

You're obviously not reading them all. 

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

Sounds perverse but I’d argue we actually look more dangerous as a team with goals coming from everywhere than having one striker get them all. Still in need of a new striker but goal scoring hasn’t been the issue so far this season. 

Indeed, whilst we still need a reliable striker up top and it will still keep biting his on the arse we've got to credit JDT and the players. He has managed to do something Mowbray constantly talked about but never achieved in creating a side that can chip in with a goal from almost any position.

To be fair his focus always seemed to be setting the side up for one of the wide forwards to prosper first and foremost. Modern thinking now though is proving better than old school.

[47er]

2 hours ago, BigBar said:

Stop making excuses, id expect the keeper to save that if Hyam had him in a headlock nevermind being near him. It's a howler but we move on. Let's call it as it is.

I think it happened because the striker had a free header and was so close to the goal-line. He also headed it vertically down.

Our keeper had a fraction of a second to react, would have done 9 times out of ten. Just one of those things.

Anyway we won!

My opinion is we should have kept Kaminski. Its disgusting that we had to sell him for peanuts to try and get someone/anyone up front.

[47er]

Ray's always had an error in him but it didn't stop him playing for a top  Premier League club.

You have to judge every player overall.

[chaddyrovers]

8 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I said that to my dad last night - there's clearly still a gaping hole at #9 - it's clear as day when you watch the team play.

We'd be a force to be reckoned with if we had a consistent goal scorer there who was either big enough to hold the ball up or fast enough to run the channels (or heaven forbid both!).

 

Sadly they cost money we didn't have in the summer. Think Ennis and Leonard could be this sort of player for us. Telalovic is work in progress also. 

7 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

 

He had to deal with a few shots and crosses and always punched well to be fair but a better goalkeeper would have caught many of them. Perhaps it's the way they're coached these days, or maybe modern footballs are harder to catch and the ball flies faster than in the past, but always punching the ball is high risk. Only he knows what he was doing for the Millwall goal

If Wahlstedt is more comfortable at this stage punching the ball then we try to get him catching the ball. He might be working on catching the ball in training trying to work on improving that part of his game

4 hours ago, Aqualung said:

All championship goalkeepers make mistakes as proven at both ends of the pitch last night. 

So who's the best championship keeper? 

As for Whalstad.. A bit of catching practice wouldn't go amiss. Punching the ball will inevitably lead to the odd balls up. 

Woodman at PNE for me. 

[Herbie6590]

Callum Brittain is your BRFCS POTM supported by @RoversTrust

[Atko's Engine]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You mention Dolan, but surely someone who at the time went 26 games without a goal and was generally performing poor is fair game?

Yes if criticised constructively, but clearly it was unbalanced & went too far, to the point where it affected his confidence and it became an uncontrollable downward spiral for him.

I'm not saying it was any comments on here that got to Dolan as he himself has, to my knowledge, only referred to twitter / X as being the source of his concern, where personal criticism is probably even more vitriolic (I'm not on it, or famous, so don't know). But even on here during his poor run folk were stating that he can't pass /shoot /dribble /cross /tackle /track back. They questioned his very basic abilities as a professional footballer.

Clearly he can do those things, he has done ever since we signed him, but he can't do them consistently or when low on form/confidence, because he's human & still only 21.

So yes he was "fair game" for constructive criticism, but not for the unbalanced deluge of abuse he got, imo. Maybe some will call him (or me!) a snowflake for this opinion, but it cant be easy for a young lad like him, who's only ever known football & has been through some significant tragedy in his short life (which in itself was connected to his friend's own sense of self worth), to read what's been said about him & be able just to shrug it off.

 

 

[roversfan99]

The thing with Wahlstedt is that it isnt a case of doing what he wants because its comfortable. He clearly elects to punch basically everything and does more often that not get a clear punch out of the area, but even then the ball is in play and can and often is then put back into the box. Its a problem entirely avoidable by just catching in the first place and only punching if it is really unlikely that youd be able to catch it.

He came for a cross on Saturday and totally missed it and it could have led to a goal. He chose to unnecessarily punch a tame Bradshaw header behind for a corner last night. Against QPR he once was forced into a save because he punched it and the ball came straight back in. It will cost us.

Players do make mistakes, no one is expeccting perfection. But last nights was a double mistake, he initially hesitated and then the ball squirming past him was inconceivable.