England - Thomas Tuchel then…

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, benhben said:

Luckiest manager of the last 20 years with the draws hes had in recent tournaments. 

You do make your own luck to a certain extent. England have had easier draws by mainly winning their groups - something they often failed to do in the pre-Southgate era. They've also benefited from the expansion of tournaments leading to weaker groups and weaker early knockout stages.

But I think we sometimes go overboard in dismissing some of England's opponents. Switzerland were good enough to totally outclass Italy, but it's a meaningless win for Southgate. Germany in the last Euros weren't any good. Colombia aren't up to scratch. Denmark, Senegal, and others were all pushovers.

England pre-Southgate would have lost AT LEAST one of those matches - regardless of the talent available. Beating weaker opponents is one of the signs of being a very good side. Yes, England have tripped up against equal or tougher opponents, but only the Croatia match stands out as an example of a team that England really should have been beating (and they're still very talented and experienced).

This semifinal and potential final will determine how the Southgate era is viewed, but I sometimes think that England fans don't know how good they've got it at the moment.

Recent tournaments have seen sides like Germany, Spain, Italy, and others experience total embarrassment, yet England supporters are critical because we're ONLY making a semifinal and not doing it in the style that they had hoped for.

[speeeeeeedie]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

This semifinal and potential final will determine how the Southgate era is viewed, but I sometimes think that England fans don't know how good they've got it at the moment.

They don't. If this messageboard is anything to go by Southgate is up there with some of the most hated people in Britain. 

Today's game will be much like the others. Tight, cautious, and hoping for a flash of skill from England's flair players.  

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, speeeeeeedie said:

They don't. If this messageboard is anything to go by Southgate is up there with some of the most hated people in Britain. 

What rubbish.

We've completely fluked it to this stage, in the process winning only one game out of five against teams way below us in the rankings.

The criticism aimed at Southgate has been fairly constructive in the main based on tactics and the way We've played. I've not seen any personal abuse of the sort aimed at the likes of Graham Taylor yet conversely Southgate however has turned into a right mard arse making out you're not allowed to criticise him and the players.

If we'd played well and reached this stage everyone would have been falling over themselves to say how brilliant he was. I don't suppose he'd have been complaining then.

[chaddyrovers]

Come on England 

[DE.]

28 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

What rubbish.

We've completely fluked it to this stage, in the process winning only one game out of five against teams way below us in the rankings.

The criticism aimed at Southgate has been fairly constructive in the main based on tactics and the way We've played. I've not seen any personal abuse of the sort aimed at the likes of Graham Taylor yet conversely Southgate however has turned into a right mard arse making out you're not allowed to criticise him and the players.

If we'd played well and reached this stage everyone would have been falling over themselves to say how brilliant he was. I don't suppose he'd have been complaining then.

A lot of people seem to be emotionally attached to Southgate, most likely because he's a former England international and comes across as a nice bloke. Fair enough. I wouldn't encourage any personal abuse of him as that's totally uncalled for. 

The insistence that he can't be criticised for anything, though, is more difficult to understand. Might as well shut down the forum and all discussion places if it's a case of "we're in the semi finals and there's nothing else to say". Baseless criticism, sure, fair enough to dismiss. When criticism with genuine context and reasoning is dismissed in the same fashion, though, then what's the point? 

Much like with Mowbray, I have no problem with Southgate as a person. As a manager, I have some major qualms. I don't think it's unreasonable to postulate that with a slightly braver manager we might have actually won something in the past six years, rather than the usual glorious failure from the pre-2008 period. 

If we win this tournament then I'll hold my hands up and say okay, he did it his way and won a trophy. I might not have enjoyed it, but mission objective achieved. 

[RoverDom]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

but I sometimes think that England fans don't know how good they've got it at the moment.

In my lifetime (born 1992 therefore don't remember 96) supporting England has been a disappointment - quarter finals at best, followed by a 12 year period where I longed for even getting to the quarters. We had to watch Euro 2008 as a neutral. What Southgate has done for England is amazing - flawless? No. But 2018 onwards has been the most enjoyable period as an England fan in my lifetime. 

[oneandycrawford]

3 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

In my lifetime (born 1992 therefore don't remember 96) supporting England has been a disappointment - quarter finals at best, followed by a 12 year period where I longed for even getting to the quarters. We had to watch Euro 2008 as a neutral. What Southgate has done for England is amazing - flawless? No. But 2018 onwards has been the most enjoyable period as an England fan in my lifetime. 

I can understand that point of view. Having watched England in the 70's. 80's and 90's we failed to qualify for some tournaments and flattered to deceive in others. Since Southgate came in he has raised the bar in terms of progressing to the later stages. 

My problem with him is we seem to be going backwards in terms of performance and the same issues keep repeating themselves - and seem to be getting worse.

If we make a fast start and score early we don't go for the jugular - Italy in the Final being the worst example.

No subs to make an impact until too late - and then rarely changes the system even when subs go on.

Overly loyal to players not fit or out of form. 

I hope we win the tournament - and don't really care whether we do it in style tbh. (Just watched a documentary about Greece's 2004 Euro's win and their fans definitely didn't care about the criticism of their style of play!!) BUT with the players we have the style we play doesn't seem to suit them.

[Exiled_Rover]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

You do make your own luck to a certain extent. England have had easier draws by mainly winning their groups - something they often failed to do in the pre-Southgate era. They've also benefited from the expansion of tournaments leading to weaker groups and weaker early knockout stages.

But I think we sometimes go overboard in dismissing some of England's opponents. Switzerland were good enough to totally outclass Italy, but it's a meaningless win for Southgate. Germany in the last Euros weren't any good. Colombia aren't up to scratch. Denmark, Senegal, and others were all pushovers.

England pre-Southgate would have lost AT LEAST one of those matches - regardless of the talent available. Beating weaker opponents is one of the signs of being a very good side. Yes, England have tripped up against equal or tougher opponents, but only the Croatia match stands out as an example of a team that England really should have been beating (and they're still very talented and experienced).

This semifinal and potential final will determine how the Southgate era is viewed, but I sometimes think that England fans don't know how good they've got it at the moment.

Recent tournaments have seen sides like Germany, Spain, Italy, and others experience total embarrassment, yet England supporters are critical because we're ONLY making a semifinal and not doing it in the style that they had hoped for.

All those nations have won something in recent memory. 

[DeeCee]

Having watched us in all major tournaments since 1966, this current set up since GS arrived have progressed further than in the previous 70 years but it's been turgid.

And we've still won fuck all.

[simongarnerisgod]

this an away game for us,dutch everywhere in dortmund😗

[Blow-in]

Not a lot of changes, 

 

Is that 4231 or 3421?

Edited July 10 by Blow-in

[RoverDom]

Just now, Blow-in said:

Not a lot of cahnges, 

 

Is that 4231 or 3421?

Be madness to switch from 3421, much better shape against the Swiss. 

[simongarnerisgod]

same slow sideways stuff but this time vs a team a few levels above the others we`ve faced

[RoverDom]

Just clocked - the pundits aren't travelling from game to game and watching at the stadiums, they're just staying in Berlin and watching on a screen.... so why do they need to be in Berlin and not back in England? 

[Gav]

Come on England.

[DeeCee]

Can Gary Neville please fuck off?

[simongarnerisgod]

1 minute ago, DeeCee said:

Can Gary Neville please fuck off?

have to turn over the telly when he appears,for a complete failure as a coach and manager he ain`t half got a lot to say about how to do it

[chaddyrovers]

19 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Just clocked - the pundits aren't travelling from game to game and watching at the stadiums, they're just staying in Berlin and watching on a screen.... so why do they need to be in Berlin and not back in England? 

its been like that for all the tournament for BBC and ITV. 

[wilsdenrover]

58 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

this an away game for us,dutch everywhere in dortmund😗

Makes a change from the Germans invading Holland

(too soon??)

[chaddyrovers]

3 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Can Gary Neville please fuck off?

I enjoyed Gary Neville talking. Very good pundit 

[DeeCee]

18 minutes ago, Gav said:

Come on England.

Chaddy's missus? 😁

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Chaddy's missus? 😁

Nope. we are at home watching the game 

[simongarnerisgod]

6 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I enjoyed Gary Neville talking. Very good pundit 

if vladimir putin was a pundit you`de claim he was excellent and misunderstood
😁

[DeeCee]

No offence to "Coisty" but we've got a Jock co-commentary for an England semi final 🤦‍♂️

[Silas]

Just now, DeeCee said:

No offence to "Coisty" but we've got a Jock co-commentary for an England semi final 🤦‍♂️

How dare you! 

Think about this, you could have English Danny Murphy.