v Bristol City (h) - 14/9/2024

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, M_B said:

Bit of a poor comparison,any keeper is more than capable of playing every game,where outfield players aren't. 

The only quotes I've seen from Eustace are regarding Pears needing competition. 

Would he be number one at any other club? No idea, but half the teams have conceded more goals if that's any indication. 

Not really. If you went through the goals we conceded last year, you would be able to find an extensive list of ones that Pears was directly responsible for, when he played.

Sheffield Wednesday at home, Ipswich at home, 2 at Plymouth away, Hull's second at home, Preston's second at Deepdale, at least one at Ipswich away, off the top of my head.

 

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, islander200 said:

So does that mean anyone who started in our wins that is fit should keep their place despite how they played individually? 

 

I'm sorry but i do not agree.If we had been keeping clean sheets and he looked solid fair enough  but  Pears has made mistakes in every league game so far and someone else in goal can't come quick enough for me. 

Do you think he would be a starting number 1 at any other club? 

Its clear that Eustace wants a new number 1, he didn't get his choice but I'm hoping this choice of Toth is much better than Whalstedt. 

I don't expect Toth to start v Bristol due to only being in the country a few days and then having to go away again but I expect him in soon as it is obvious Eustace doesn't particularly rate Pears like most the rest of us 

Im not convinced that Eustace did specifically push for a number 1. He pointed out goalkeeper as one of many positions where (obviously as we only had 1 keeper) that we needed more options 

The media stuff has only been what youd expect, compete with Pears etc but I am not sure whether Eustace rates him or not, its not conclusive I would suggest.

Hopefully he sees what most of us see. 

[Mattyblue]

Of course he does. Look how quickly he had JRC out the side after Blackpool.

If he likes the look of Toth, he’ll be in, if he doesn’t (or at least not yet), he won’t.

[Inferi]

8 hours ago, tomphil said:

Whilst i agree on the last bit some at the club obviously don't.

Development club remember, Pears gets 100 plus championship games under his belt, stats probably in the average zone maybe a bit higher depending on how the team is doing, English, not that old best years for a keeper ahead.

He might be worth a million quid or so plus add ons and i'd suggest that's how they look at it, maybe not Eustace but the rest of them.

Ok so to sum up this thought process:

It doesn't matter that Pears is a total liability because we need to look at the bigger picture. We might be able to sell him for a small fee down the line if he can improve. We need to recover some of the money we spent on the transfer fee and his wages.  

Just stupid penny pinching.

 

[islander200]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Im not convinced that Eustace did specifically push for a number 1. He pointed out goalkeeper as one of many positions where (obviously as we only had 1 keeper) that we needed more options 

The media stuff has only been what youd expect, compete with Pears etc but I am not sure whether Eustace rates him or not, its not conclusive I would suggest.

Hopefully he sees what most of us see. 

I'm going off the keepers that we were linked with like Travers,Rushworth...even Ruddy, we wouldn't have been looking at those names if Eustace had indicated he was satisfied with Pears as number 1 

Time will tell but Pears is making mistakes nearly every match so i really hope that a decision hasn't been made to stick with Pears and Toth has been brought in as number 2 

[tomphil]

13 minutes ago, Inferi said:

Ok so to sum up this thought process:

It doesn't matter that Pears is a total liability because we need to look at the bigger picture. We might be able to sell him for a small fee down the line if he can improve. We need to recover some of the money we spent on the transfer fee and his wages.  

Just stupid penny pinching.

 

Where has this 'Pears is a total liability' sprung from ?

It's total bollocks he's kept goal in a team that finished 7th, managed to hold firm enough to avoid relegation and is now in a team that is unbeaten so far in the league.

Sorry but that just isn't anywhere in the realms of being a total liability, yes he's prone to the odd monumental balls up and in general is a bit shaky in certain situations but otherwise average enough. Yes he could be upgraded on and maybe the new lad will do that given time.

Yes we all want a really steady number 1 but from the clubs pint of view do they want him on the bench or would they quite understandably prefer to get a few quid back ?

As long as we are getting results i can't see a change but longer term there will be one.

[M_B]

53 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Not really. If you went through the goals we conceded last year, you would be able to find an extensive list of ones that Pears was directly responsible for, when he played.

Sheffield Wednesday at home, Ipswich at home, 2 at Plymouth away, Hull's second at home, Preston's second at Deepdale, at least one at Ipswich away, off the top of my head.

 

If we're talking last season, he did finish with 3 clean sheets out of the last 4 games including Leeds and Leicester, meaning we've lost 1 in the last 8 with him in goal. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can improve on Pears, but if I was Eustace, I'd be thinking now is not the time to change. It could create all sorts of problems going forward. 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

Where has this 'Pears is a total liability' sprung from ?

It's total bollocks he's kept goal in a team that finished 7th, managed to hold firm enough to avoid relegation and is now in a team that is unbeaten so far in the league.

Sorry but that just isn't anywhere in the realms of being a total liability, yes he's prone to the odd monumental balls up and in general is a bit shaky in certain situations but otherwise average enough. Yes he could be upgraded on and maybe the new lad will do that given time.

Yes we all want a really steady number 1 but from the clubs pint of view do they want him on the bench or would they quite understandably prefer to get a few quid back ?

As long as we are getting results i can't see a change but longer term there will be one.

The odd monumental balls up? Thats simply not true. As I listed earlier, he made a long list of howlers throught last season and he missed a big chunk injured. The own goal v Sheffield Wednesday, the bad mistake at home to Ipswich, the 2 errors away at Plymouth, at least one error away at Ipswich, one at Deepdale, one at home to Hull etc. They are just the ones that led to goals.

The club should want the team to be as strong as possible and as Pears is the weakest player in the team then he needs to be improved upon.

[DE.]

Just a reminder that personal attacks against individuals or perceived groups on the forum aren't welcome. You can make a point without resorting to insults. 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

The odd monumental balls up? Thats simply not true. As I listed earlier, he made a long list of howlers throught last season and he missed a big chunk injured. The own goal v Sheffield Wednesday, the bad mistake at home to Ipswich, the 2 errors away at Plymouth, at least one error away at Ipswich, one at Deepdale, one at home to Hull etc. They are just the ones that led to goals.

The club should want the team to be as strong as possible and as Pears is the weakest player in the team then he needs to be improved upon.

Yet again, god knows how many times with you i'm trotting out the line DEVELOPMENT.

Unfortunately rookies make howlers even the good ones and whether you like it or not even you and the rest have to admit the lad was - still is - learning on the job.

Blame those who created this ethos at this club.

As Tim Flowers once said the real key to being a good keeper isn't the great saves it's minimising mistakes because when you make one it's a goal.  Pears has got away with a couple already this season, he will another but it's all about his learning curve this club prioritzed player development over promotion several years ago and all this goes with the turf.

If you or anyone else thinks when the new lad comes in he won't make a real howler or two then think again, what then ?

Pears in ?

Edited September 7 by tomphil

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Yet again, god knows how many times with you i'm trotting out the line DEVELOPMENT.

Unfortunately rookies make howlers even the good ones and whether you like it or not even you and the rest have to admit the lad was - still is - learning on the job.

Blame those who created this ethos at this club.

As Tim Flowers once said the real key to being a good keeper isn't the great saves it's minimising mistakes because when you make one it's a goal.  Pears has got away with a couple already this season, he will another but it's all about his learning curve this club prioritzed player development over promotion several years ago and all this goes with the turf.

If you or anyone else thinks when the new lad comes in he won't make a real howler or two then think again, what then ?

Pears in ?

I agree that goalkeepers are judged based on minimising mistakes. All keepers make them, its the QUANTITY that is key. And he makes loads. I provided a list earlier from last season, and he missed a big chunk of it due to injury.

Regarding when does the point come where calls for Pears to be restored come in. If Toth makes a mistake or two, no I certainly wouldnt call to switch back. Only if he started making mistakes even more regularly than Pears, ie Wahlstedt, then yes of course. But Wahlstedt seems to have stung people to the point where every foriegn keeper seems to be assumed as a replica, or just as bad. There is no point signing him if that is the case, I am assuming that he was scouted and is seen to be a reasonable player.

I am not having this idea of development. Even if that is the primary focus which is obviously totally backwards, I dont see much value being added to him. He doesnt have the ability to win points (he rarely if ever makes saves you think wow, how did he manage that, and even in impressive clean sheets, it tends to be a case of a mixture of great defending and wayward finishing ie at Leeds and Leicester) and he makes beyond a reasonable amount of mistakes. But even then, assuming Toth is better, or indeed any replacement, there is more value to be generated in then developing the better keeper.

Edited September 7 by roversfan99

[Andy]

4 hours ago, tomphil said:

Where has this 'Pears is a total liability' sprung from ?

It's total bollocks he's kept goal in a team that finished 7th, managed to hold firm enough to avoid relegation and is now in a team that is unbeaten so far in the league.

Sorry but that just isn't anywhere in the realms of being a total liability, yes he's prone to the odd monumental balls up and in general is a bit shaky in certain situations but otherwise average enough. Yes he could be upgraded on and maybe the new lad will do that given time.

Yes we all want a really steady number 1 but from the clubs pint of view do they want him on the bench or would they quite understandably prefer to get a few quid back ?

As long as we are getting results i can't see a change but longer term there will be one.

I'd suggest that's a very, very kind view of the Pears situation.

It hasn't just been the many catastrophic individual errors like Sheffield at home (no professional GK should be conceding that), it's the general air of incompetence that he carries.
His defence are constantly on edge and this regularly shows in their performances.

Pears isn't close to being good enough as a Championship number 1 and I suspect he himself knows this, never mind the fans.

Fingers crossed Toth is what we've been missing since we sold TK.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I agree that goalkeepers are judged based on minimising mistakes. All keepers make them, its the QUANTITY that is key. And he makes loads. I provided a list earlier from last season, and he missed a big chunk of it due to injury.

Regarding when does the point come where calls for Pears to be restored come in. If Toth makes a mistake or two, no I certainly wouldnt call to switch back. Only if he started making mistakes even more regularly than Pears, ie Wahlstedt, then yes of course. But Wahlstedt seems to have stung people to the point where every foriegn keeper seems to be assumed as a replica, or just as bad. There is no point signing him if that is the case, I am assuming that he was scouted and is seen to be a reasonable player.

I am not having this idea of development. Even if that is the primary focus which is obviously totally backwards, I dont see much value being added to him. He doesnt have the ability to win points (he rarely if ever makes saves you think wow, how did he manage that, and even in impressive clean sheets, it tends to be a case of a mixture of great defending and wayward finishing ie at Leeds and Leicester) and he makes beyond a reasonable amount of mistakes. But even then, assuming Toth is better, or indeed any replacement, there is more value to be generated in then developing the better keeper.

As i mentioned earlier in a now removed post just look at the case of Steele, awful form, relegated, dropped for a rookie, sold to Sunderland for a decent fee.

Always look at the bigger picture and a 100 championship starts is a hundred championship starts and that alone puts value into an English 20 something keeper.

[islander200]

4 minutes ago, tomphil said:

As i mentioned earlier in a now removed post just look at the case of Steele, awful form, relegated, dropped for a rookie, sold to Sunderland for a decent fee.

Always look at the bigger picture and a 100 championship starts is a hundred championship starts and that alone puts value into an English 20 something keeper.

We made a loss on Steele.We bought him for more than we sold him for.We also sold him for less than we just spent on the Hungarian 

[tomphil]

6 minutes ago, islander200 said:

We made a loss on Steele.We bought him for more than we sold him for.We also sold him for less than we just spent on the Hungarian 

Irrelevant.

He;d been poor, dropped and someone still bought him due to his experience and enough proof that he was at least average when in form.

[islander200]

5 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Irrelevant.

He;d been poor, dropped and someone still bought him due to his experience and enough proof that he was at least average when in form.

How is it irrelevant. We made a loss on him isn't your point the these are development goalkeepers that the club want to make a bit of profit on, giving them games and being English hoping that will up their fee ?

We bought steele for something like a million and sold him to Sunderland for a bit over half that a year later he went to Brighton on a free transfer .So he can't be used as a success story on our end 

 

[tomphil]

1 minute ago, islander200 said:

How is it irrelevant. We made a loss on him isn't your point the these are development goalkeepers that the club want to make a bit of profit on, giving them games and being English hoping that will up their fee ?

We bought steele for something like a million and sold him to Sunderland for a bit over half that a year later he went to Brighton on a free transfer .So he can't be used as a success story on our end 

 

They brought in a lad from Boros bench to replace our ex England number 1 that is the skewed kind of thinking often associated with this club.

If they work out you make money if they don't you don't why should that even need explaining ?

You are being constantly obtuse over this for the sake of it so accept the difference of opinion and stop boring everyone going around in circles iv;e repeated my opinions on it a dozen times over now.

I couldn't give a flying fuck if you agree or not but stop getting yourself in a tiz, take your Pears hate and suck it up for now, time will tell who is number 1 and who isn't.

[philipl]

Looking at it from Toth perspective. 

He has two keepers well onto their 30s ahead of him in the Hungarian squad and was getting all the game time he needed at his former club.

He wasn't sold the Rovers on being a bench warmer to a younger keeper.

Pears always has a mistake in him. Two unpunished howlers at Burnley.

From our perspective, does Toth get a chance before or after Pears costs us points?

And I am putting the likelihood of Beck starting this game at over 50%.

[islander200]

5 hours ago, tomphil said:

They brought in a lad from Boros bench to replace our ex England number 1 that is the skewed kind of thinking often associated with this club.

If they work out you make money if they don't you don't why should that even need explaining ?

You are being constantly obtuse over this for the sake of it so accept the difference of opinion and stop boring everyone going around in circles iv;e repeated my opinions on it a dozen times over now.

I couldn't give a flying fuck if you agree or not but stop getting yourself in a tiz, take your Pears hate and suck it up for now, time will tell who is number 1 and who isn't.

I'm sure people are bored of your nonsense that the club are playing Pears in the hope they can sell him for a million after 100 apps in the championship 

Il post what i want within the rules I couldn't give a flying fuck if it does bore you 

[Mattyblue]

Pre Eustace the club was repeatedly on the record saying it was all about adding value to players (more than winning, you know, football matches).

Now that may no longer be the case as for about the fourteenth time under these owners they seem to have chucked the previous ‘model’ in the skip, but it is certainly not an outlandish theory in to why he’s played so many games here when he’s so piss poor.

Hopefully now Eustace just gets to manage/recruit how he sees fit (unlike the last manager) the fact he got to bring in a load of experienced players, not just ‘development’ ones makes me hopeful that he does.
 

[islander200]

It's the million pound that I find nonsense.

Iv no doubt they probably did hope that one day we could command a decent fee for Pears with him being English, young etc but when do we sell first team players for as little as that, regular starters I mean 

We paid £500k or close too for Pears so for me it is nonsense that he is being played to make a tiny profit.And made a loss on Steele, so this model of buying young English goalkeepers to make a profit on them certainly isn't working if that was/is the plan 

Pears played so much because the alternatives were worse(apart from the weird spell when Jdt kept him in over Kaminski) 

If the club have bought worse than Pears or a keeper that it's gonna take months to get up to speed then serious questions need to be asked(I know they wouldn't be answered) and if Toth doesn't work out and it turns out it was Benson who chose both him and Whalstedt,  then he should be getting sacked (again it won't happen) 

The owners do sanction sales for big players for fees less than they are worth, but it is very rare we are selling first team lads for fees like a million quid

[Old Codger]

Right oh,

I'm going to trust the manager head coach to put out the side based on the players he judges have the best chance of beating Bristol City at home in the league. End of. 

Whilst it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that JE spends endless hours on here trawling through threads in search of some useful nuggets to inform his choices as manager head coach, I think it is probably more likely that he makes his choices based on what he sees in training, and on the field of play in competitive games. Obviously there is a chicken and egg * situation with the goalkeeper selection, but I'm sure JE is capable of making the best choice based on what he sees.

I'm looking forward to the game - it is one of those where there are too many unknown unknowns to make a reasonable guess about the outcome. All I know is that if the players give the same effort, application and energy as they did at the Turd, then punters like me should be trogging back up Livesey Branch Rd at full time satisfied that the doom and gloom of the pre-season roller-coaster ride around transfers at the club has been firmly and decisively put to bed. Job done.

Trouble is, football is too unpredictable for any of us to really know what the outcome will be, so we just have to hope it is a favourable one.

Head - Narrow victory for East Lancashire based on the momentum and trajectory of recent games in the league (1-0 Yuki!)

Heart - A thumping win announces JE Blue and White Army as serious early-season contenders for a top half of the top half finish (4-0)

Hang the Monkey - Brizzle bring their own razzle-dazzle-rizzle-bizzle and stun us with a painful reality check. (0-2)

 

* no pun intended to the chokers and baldy Greg

Edited September 8 by Old Codger
Rovers - For me it has always been personal

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, islander200 said:

I'm sure people are bored of your nonsense that the club are playing Pears in the hope they can sell him for a million after 100 apps in the championship 

Il post what i want within the rules I couldn't give a flying fuck if it does bore you 

Yes you can post what you want even if it's 99.9% nonsense all iv'e asked is stop replying to me iv'e no interest in your player hate.

It says more about you behind your keyboard, get some fresh air instead.

[islander200]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

Yes you can post what you want even if it's 99.9% nonsense all iv'e asked is stop replying to me iv'e no interest in your player hate.

It says more about you behind your keyboard, get some fresh air instead.

Player hate? Because I think he is poor and not competent enough to be a number 1 In this division...its not like I'm within earshot and shouting abuse at him.

The most nonsense is being spoken by you describing the £500k we received for Steele as a decent fee.When we bought him for twice as much .

Even more nonsense was the post yesterday "Where has this Pears is a liability come from ". "He was in net when we finished 7th"

Completely ignoring the fact he started 18 games that season, we conceded 19 goals in those games and only won 5.We had been top 6 most that season eventually dropping out of it towards the end with Pears in net

[rigger]

10 hours ago, tomphil said:

As i mentioned earlier in a now removed post just look at the case of Steele, awful form, relegated, dropped for a rookie, sold to Sunderland for a decent fee.

Always look at the bigger picture and a 100 championship starts is a hundred championship starts and that alone puts value into an English 20 something keeper.

But we cannot sell him now until January. Do you propose we stick with him till then, regardless of form ?

Edited September 8 by rigger