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[roversfan99]

  On 19/07/2024 at 11:27, Dreams of 1995 said:

No "people" have said this

The point being made was that international football is different. For every manager who has had international success only, there will also be a manager that has had success at club and international level. Some had success at club level before international level, some didn't, some had their breakthrough at international level

You are creating an argument in order to argue against it

Whereas your posts have been quite clear. You think that success at club level is precedent to a good appointment. Otherwise, they are "unproven or proven failures". But history in football tells you that this isn't entirely true. I won't be calling an appointment of Lee Carsley a disaster appointment because throughout the history of football managers have had great success in international football without ever really bothering with club football

So the examples are important in this discussion. Not a "backwards argument" and certainly does not mean we should "look for failures"

And for your last point, it is not like saying that. It is like saying that you should not start writing people off before they arrive. When people say they won't judge or that others shouldn't, it doesn't mean you can't have your moan about it. Feel free to. But there's a few posters here who clearly don't think success at club level is precedent to being a success as England manager. And I agree.

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Ultimately a manager who has done a poor job or poor job at club level can still do a good job elsewhere, its not a guarantee. And I totally appreciate that international football is not the same, its essentially 2 years building up to one tournament whereby it comes down to small margin knockout games where luck and the difficulty of draws can define your job.

But invariably you more likely will end up with candidates who have managed at club level rather than international level so accepting that it isnt the same, you are surely best suited to picking the best of those club managers.

Its not about calling people a disaster. But in terms of credentials, appointing a Carsley or a Potter would suggest to me that the FA has gone down the route of prioritising English nationality and perhaps a temperament that will limit the risk of the manager being outspoken over managerial credentials.

Appointing a proven repeated failure like Lampard would be a disaster appointment.

[Dreams of 1995]

  On 19/07/2024 at 11:59, roversfan99 said:

Ultimately a manager who has done a poor job or poor job at club level can still do a good job elsewhere, it’s not a guarantee. And I totally appreciate that international football is not the same, its essentially 2 years building up to one tournament whereby it comes down to small margins and knockout games where luck and the difficulty of draws can define your job.

But invariably you more likely will end up with candidates who have managed at club level rather than international level so accepting that it isnt the same, you are surely best suited to picking the best of those club managers.

Its not about calling people a disaster. But in terms of credentials, appointing a Carsley or a Potter would suggest to me that the FA has gone down the route of prioritising English nationality and perhaps a temperament that will limit the risk of the manager being outspoken over managerial credentials.

Appointing a proven repeated failure like Lampard would be a disaster appointment.

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It doesn’t come down to luck. I like how you shoe horned it in, but there’s nothing lucky about qualifying and then performing well at major tournaments 

But it is different from club football. You don’t get as long with players to mould the tactical shape you may want. It’s man management, maintaining harmony and playing the team in front of you rather than sticking to a specific philosophy

And so history has shown, managing at club level and achieving success at club level is neither here nor there to making a success at international football

Graham Potter had a very successful time at Brighton and before that in Sweden. Chelsea are a basket case - I will let him off. We could do a lot worse than Potter

It is perhaps too early for Carsley. But having already won a tournament, you would say his destiny could be in the national job. I wouldn’t be against him, especially as a few of the players have already played under him and won 

I wouldn’t say that the best club managers are suited for international football. I would obviously back Pep if he was chosen, but there’s the argument that his methods require meticulous coaching. He will not get that time with a national team. You’d be a brave man to say he wouldn’t be successful, but that doubt would always be there. There’s countless examples of that - Flick, Trappatoni, Capello and most famous of all Don Revie. All very successful at club level and struggled for their national team

[wilsdenrover]

https://careers.thefa.com/jobs/vacancy/england-mens-senior-team-head-coach-nfcsgp0377-national-football-centre-st-georges-park/2137/description/

[DeeCee]

  On 19/07/2024 at 15:24, wilsdenrover said:

https://careers.thefa.com/jobs/vacancy/england-mens-senior-team-head-coach-nfcsgp0377-national-football-centre-st-georges-park/2137/description/

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What's the wages? 😁

[joey_big_nose]

  On 19/07/2024 at 15:43, DeeCee said:

What's the wages? 😁

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Pretty good - Southgate got paid about 40% more than Deschamps which is mad if you consider what each have won...

 

 

[roversfan99]

 

 

  On 19/07/2024 at 15:20, Dreams of 1995 said:

It doesn’t come down to luck. I like how you shoe horned it in, but there’s nothing lucky about qualifying and then performing well at major tournaments 

But it is different from club football. You don’t get as long with players to mould the tactical shape you may want. It’s man management, maintaining harmony and playing the team in front of you rather than sticking to a specific philosophy

And so history has shown, managing at club level and achieving success at club level is neither here nor there to making a success at international football

Graham Potter had a very successful time at Brighton and before that in Sweden. Chelsea are a basket case - I will let him off. We could do a lot worse than Potter

It is perhaps too early for Carsley. But having already won a tournament, you would say his destiny could be in the national job. I wouldn’t be against him, especially as a few of the players have already played under him and won 

I wouldn’t say that the best club managers are suited for international football. I would obviously back Pep if he was chosen, but there’s the argument that his methods require meticulous coaching. He will not get that time with a national team. You’d be a brave man to say he wouldn’t be successful, but that doubt would always be there. There’s countless examples of that - Flick, Trappatoni, Capello and most famous of all Don Revie. All very successful at club level and struggled for their national team

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Of course luck plays a part. It does in all sport but in a normal season, one game isnt decisive in the same way that knockout tournament is. You play everyone home and away in a league, you can get easier or harder draws in major tournaments. Also a dodgy decision can tilt a game either way, we have seen it against us in the past, take the Lampard goal v Germany and Campbell's header v Portugal, we have had 2 really dodgy penalties in our favour in our Euro semi finals.

That doesnt mean that I am saying that Southgate is purely lucky. One thing he clearly is very good at is man management. 

I don't disagree with your analysis of international football, you often see that more pragmatic managers get success at international football. I suspect that Mourinho would do well at least short term if he went into international management. 

If you totally took nationality out of the equation though, would the likes of Potter and Carsley come into consideration?

[M_B]

  On 19/07/2024 at 15:20, Dreams of 1995 said:

It doesn’t come down to luck. I like how you shoe horned it in, but there’s nothing lucky about qualifying and then performing well at major tournaments 

But it is different from club football. You don’t get as long with players to mould the tactical shape you may want. It’s man management, maintaining harmony and playing the team in front of you rather than sticking to a specific philosophy

And so history has shown, managing at club level and achieving success at club level is neither here nor there to making a success at international football

Graham Potter had a very successful time at Brighton and before that in Sweden. Chelsea are a basket case - I will let him off. We could do a lot worse than Potter

It is perhaps too early for Carsley. But having already won a tournament, you would say his destiny could be in the national job. I wouldn’t be against him, especially as a few of the players have already played under him and won 

I wouldn’t say that the best club managers are suited for international football. I would obviously back Pep if he was chosen, but there’s the argument that his methods require meticulous coaching. He will not get that time with a national team. You’d be a brave man to say he wouldn’t be successful, but that doubt would always be there. There’s countless examples of that - Flick, Trappatoni, Capello and most famous of all Don Revie. All very successful at club level and struggled for their national team

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Apparently England were on the easy side of the "draw" after the group games had finished.

I must have missed that "draw", the only one I can remember is the one before the tournament started, the one that had us scheduled to meet France in the semis. 

Apparently it was all down to "luck" that England did their job and won their group,and France cocked up and finished 2nd and ended up in the other half. Nothing to do with results. 

Edited July 19, 2024 by M_B

[Dreams of 1995]

  On 19/07/2024 at 16:27, roversfan99 said:

 

 

Of course luck plays a part. It does in all sport but in a normal season, one game isnt decisive in the same way that knockout tournament is. You play everyone home and away in a league, you can get easier or harder draws in major tournaments. Also a dodgy decision can tilt a game either way, we have seen it against us in the past, take the Lampard goal v Germany and Campbell's header v Portugal, we have had 2 really dodgy penalties in our favour in our Euro semi finals.

That doesnt mean that I am saying that Southgate is purely lucky. One thing he clearly is very good at is man management. 

I don't disagree with your analysis of international football, you often see that more pragmatic managers get success at international football. I suspect that Mourinho would do well at least short term if he went into international management. 

If you totally took nationality out of the equation though, would the likes of Potter and Carsley come into consideration?

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Of course Carsley would come into consideration. He recently won the U21 European Championship

Graham Potter may have prior to the Chelsea job. He had two excellent appointments in Sweden and then Brighton

We seem to be the only major footballing nation who wants to take nationality out of the equation. All of the rest choose from the pool they have. I am not having this idea we can’t win it with an English manager. We need to improve our coach development for sure, but in Howe, Potter or Carsley, we have 3 good options to pick from. It would be Howe for me

Edited July 19, 2024 by Dreams of 1995

[Dreams of 1995]

  On 19/07/2024 at 17:28, M_B said:

Apparently England were on the easy side of the "draw" after the group games had finished.

I must have missed that "draw", the only one I can remember is the one before the tournament started, the one that had us scheduled to meet France in the semis. 

Apparently it was all down to "luck" that England did their job and won their group,and France cocked up and finished 2nd and ended up in the other half. Nothing to do with results. 

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We came first in every group under Southgate. That isn’t luck. It is knowing what job you have to do and getting it done 

[wilsdenrover]

  On 19/07/2024 at 17:59, Dreams of 1995 said:

Of course Carsley would come into consideration. He recently won the U21 European Championship

Graham Potter may have prior to the Chelsea job. He had two excellent appointments in Sweden and then Brighton

We seem to be the only major footballing nation who wants to take nationality out of the equation. All of the rest choose from the pool they have. I am not having this idea we can’t win it with an English manager. We need to improve our coach development for sure, but in Howe, Potter or Carsley, we have 3 good options to pick from. It would be Howe for me

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Would you not class Portugal and a Belgium as major nations?

[Mattyblue]

Who said it was all down to luck? Who said it isn’t about results?

What I remember is certain people saying it had nothing to do with luck which was obviously a daft thing to say considering the group, how the draw opened up and how poor they were up to that overhead kick. Luck is part of sport, just like life, if you get some, then great, make the most of it.

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

  On 19/07/2024 at 19:11, wilsdenrover said:

Would you not class Portugal and a Belgium as major nations?

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Turned out well for them

And under Santos, it went excellently

[M_B]

  On 19/07/2024 at 19:17, Mattyblue said:

Who said it was all down to luck? Who said it isn’t about results?

What I remember is certain people saying it had nothing to do with luck which was obviously a daft thing to say considering the group, how the draw opened up and how poor they were up to that overhead kick. Luck is part of sport, just like life, if you get some, then great, make the most of it.

 

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The way the fixtures(it wasn't a "draw") opened up or not, was down to results, not being drawn out of a bag. 

France weren't unlucky to be in the other half of the draw,they simply didn't do their job. 

 

 

[Mattyblue]

Not this again. Knew I should have stayed out of this thread, I don’t remotely care enough about international football. But anyway.

Right, that was totally in France’s control, so of course that isn’t luck. England getting drawn a weak group then events out of their control leading to an easier passage to the final is lucky. That’s knock out football for you. Doesn’t take anything away from the team, from Southgate, doesn’t mean it was only luck they got them to a final. You still have to beat those teams and he did and the form picked up post the overhead kick. Being resilient and hanging on in there isn’t luck.

Like I said before if Rovers got to a cup semi final purely by drawing lower league teams along the way, great. It’s a stroke of luck but that doesn’t take anything away from the achievement one bit, that’s cup football, you know the rules of engagement before you enter. You can ride your luck, unlike league football where poor performances are ultimately punished.

Edited July 19, 2024 by Mattyblue

[roversfan99]

Getting an easier last 16 game isnt as much based on luck because obviously you can win your group and in theory then get an easier tie. But then again, you can still top your group and get a big hitter who hasnt won their group, would that be deserved or would that be bad luck? The latter. Purely from an England perspective. 

Quarter and semi finals, that is luck. Switzerland and Holland arent easy teams to beat, harder than Ukraine/Denmark in 2020, but they arent the elite teams. The elite teams all were on the opposite side.

Whether France messed up first and deserved their harder route is a totally seperate argument.

[Upside Down]

  On 19/07/2024 at 20:20, Mattyblue said:

Not this again. Knew I should have stayed out of this thread, I don’t remotely care enough about international football. But anyway.

Right, that was totally in France’s control, so of course that isn’t luck. England getting drawn a weak group then events out of their control leading to an easier passage to the final is lucky. That’s knock out football for you. Doesn’t take anything away from the team, from Southgate, doesn’t mean it was only luck they got them to a final. You still have to beat those teams and he did and the form picked up post the overhead kick. Being resilient and hanging on in there isn’t luck.

Like I said before if Rovers got to a cup semi final purely by drawing lower league teams along the way, great. It’s a stroke of luck but that doesn’t take anything away from the achievement one bit, that’s cup football, you know the rules of engagement before you enter. You can ride your luck, unlike league football where poor performances are ultimately punished.

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This is getting beyond embarrassing now.

Grown adults refusing to grasp the most basic life concepts. 

Pathetic. 

[M_B]

  On 19/07/2024 at 20:38, Upside Down said:

This is getting beyond embarrassing now.

Grown adults refusing to grasp the most basic life concepts. 

Pathetic. 

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Yeah, one group saying England's path was determined by their results and the results of others, and the other group adamant it's whether Southgate walked under a ladder. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Mattyblue]

Yep that’s totally what the two groups think 🙄 As you are completely ignoring (I’ll be generous and say you do understand the concept of luck and chance, though I’m not sure on that one) the point being made, I’ll leave it there and stick to the threads I actually give a flying feck about, I.e Rovers related ones.

[Upside Down]

  On 19/07/2024 at 21:00, Mattyblue said:

Yep that’s totally what the two groups think 🙄 As you are completely ignoring (I’ll be generous and say you do understand the concept of luck and chance, though I’m not sure on that one) the point being made, I’ll leave it there and stick to the threads I actually give a flying feck about, I.e Rovers related ones.

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I am also checking out of this thread.

I'm not giving him the benefit of doubt here.

As I said before, pathetic.

[M_B]

  On 19/07/2024 at 21:02, Upside Down said:

I am also checking out of this thread.

I'm not giving him the benefit of doubt here.

As I said before, pathetic.

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Look, we'll call a truce. 

Being drawn a relatively easy group could be seen as lucky, although we weren't on our own. 

From there on in, results decided the path of England and all the others. 

If you want to call it lucky or not is up to you. 

[M_B]

  On 19/07/2024 at 21:00, Mattyblue said:

Yep that’s totally what the two groups think 🙄 As you are completely ignoring (I’ll be generous and say you do understand the concept of luck and chance, though I’m not sure on that one) the point being made, I’ll leave it there and stick to the threads I actually give a flying feck about, I.e Rovers related ones.

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I'm not ignoring the concept of luck, drawing an easier group is lucky. The rest is determined through results of each team. 

[Mattyblue]

Yes and the results of others brings luck/chance/fortune into it as it’s out of your control , but ok, we are going in circles again as you wanted the last word.

But I’m sure we’ll come back to it in 2026 when everyone suddenly cares about international football for a few weeks again (well, actually I won’t, I’ll be sticking to the ‘League 2 2026/27 thread’.

Edited July 19, 2024 by Mattyblue

[jim mk2]

Of course Southgate was lucky; those posts that maintain he wasn't can be safely filed in the bullshit drawer lol

He had the easier draws in tournaments but when when the chips were down, he was slow to react and shape games or create victories. His approach seemed to be one of making England hard to beat, which is not the mindset of a great coach and that negativity unfortunately transferred to the players.

Southgate created a good culture off the pitch but it takes more than that to be a winning manager. Ultimately he failed. 

[Andy]

Honestly, I couldn't care less where the next coach comes from as long as he's able to win something with us.

Bit insular to restrict ourselves to 'English only' managers, particularly so when they're all Southgate-flavoured shite.

[chaddyrovers]

England set to appoint Lee Carsley as manager as FA look to follow Gareth Southgate path, claims ex-Three Lions boss | The Sun