Useless Eustace?

[frosty]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

However, once our football started looking nicer, results stopped coming. We collapsed in the second half of his first season - there was a lot of insistence it would get better as the football looked nicer to watch, but it never did.

Not sure we collapsed. We only lost four games after the disaster at Rotherham in mid January. We started drawing a lot more but were unlucky not to win a couple of them at the end of the season (Coventry and Preston). 

We were a better side in the second half of the season than the first even if we didn't win as many games. The Leicester midweek FA Cup win followed up by beating Sheff Utd at home on the Saturday, we were outstanding in both games. 

Just a shame the only January addition was Sorba Thomas on loan, that season could have been the one....

Edited December 21, 2024 by frosty

[MarkBRFC]

On 21/12/2024 at 14:43, frosty said:

Not sure we collapsed. We only lost four games after the disaster at Rotherham in mid January. We started drawing a lot more but were unlucky not to win a couple of them at the end of the season (Coventry and Preston). 

We were a better side in the second half of the season than the first even if we didn't win as many games. The Leicester midweek FA Cup win followed up by beating Sheff Utd at home on the Saturday, we were outstanding in both games. 

Just a shame the only January addition was Sorba Thomas on loan, that season could have been the one....

Yep it's another myth of JDT's first season that we collapsed after Christmas.

Our form remained quite good up until the FA Cup Quarter final, with only 1 defeat in 13 between the Rotherham debacle and losing at Sheffield Utd, losing that how we did followed by a 2 week break for International's is what I think knocked the stuffing out of us that season, and 1 win in 9 followed right at the crucial part of the season.

Of course 2 or 3 quality additions in Jan might have solved that but we all know what happened there.

A huge missed opportunity that season, and personally don't think we will ever get a better shot.

[Mattyblue]

Yep, if we ‘collapsed after Christmas’ how were we still in with a shout of the play offs on the last day considering we were never actually right up in the top 2 to start with (I.e 1991/92)? We were pretty consistent till April.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Mattyblue

[M_B]

When you think about it, it was a strange situation that some were so vehemently opposed to crediting Eustace with the Stoke win.

 

[Hasta]

When you think about it, despite the clubs official channels confirming that Eustace first official game in charge was Birmingham away, it was a strange situation that some fans were desperate to credit him that win some 3 months later. 
 

Even odder they still bring it up out the blue 10 months later.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Hasta

[M_B]

It is strange bringing it up,it's all over this thread.

It's also strange that anyone would want our own manager, any manager, to appear to have a worse record, I've never really thought about it that way before.

 

[DeeCee]

Think we all just actually want an accurate record.

 

[roverandout]

West brom boss corberan is being targeted by valencia. Eustace is the sort of manager west brom will target

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, roverandout said:

West brom boss corberan is being targeted by valencia. Eustace is the sort of manager west brom will target

If they had any sense he would be.

[chaddyrovers]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

If they had any sense he would be.

WBA will move for out of work manager

[The1mattjansen]

I just asked AI to produce a league table showing over/under-achievement based on total payroll and current league position. Which I would say is the standard quantitative measure of a managers performance:
 

Difference (Payroll Rank - League Position)

For each club:

• Payroll Rank = where they stand by wages (1 = highest spending, 24 = lowest).

• League Position = current standing (1 = top of table, 24 = bottom).

• Difference = Payroll Rank - League Position.

• If Difference is positive, the club’s league position is higher than its payroll rank, meaning over achievement.

• If Difference is negative, the club’s league position is lower than its payroll rank, meaning underachievement.

Sorting by Over/Underachievement

If you sort by Difference (descending), you see who’s most overachieving (largest positive) at the top, down to who’s most underachieving (most negative) at the bottom:

1. (+10) Sunderland (Payroll 14, League 4)
2. (+10) Blackburn Rovers (17, 7)
3. (+7) Swansea City (19, 12)
4. (+7) QPR (22, 15)
5. (+6) Coventry City (20, 14)
6. (+5) Millwall (18, 13)
7. (+4) Middlesbrough (9, 5)
8. (+3) Bristol City (13, 10)
9. (+3) Oxford United (21, 18)
10. (+3) Portsmouth (24, 21)
11. (+1) Sheffield United (4, 3)
12. (+1) Sheffield Wednesday (10, 9)
13. (0) Leeds (1, 1)
14. (0) Burnley (2, 2)
15. (0) Watford (8, 8)
16. (−1) Preston (15, 16)
17. (−1) Derby County (16, 17)
18. (−1) Plymouth Argyle (23, 24)
19. (−3) West Brom (3, 6)
20. (−5) Norwich City (6, 11)
21. (−8) Stoke City (11, 19)
22. (−10) Hull City (12, 22)
23. (−15) Luton Town (5, 20)
24. (−16) Cardiff City (7, 23)

Biggest Overachievers

• Sunderland and Blackburn Rovers both have a difference of +10
• Followed by Swansea and QPR at +7

Biggest Underachievers

• Cardiff City at −16
• Luton Town at −15
• Hull City at −10

[RevidgeBlue]

3 hours ago, The1mattjansen said:

I just asked AI to produce a league table showing over/under-achievement based on total payroll and current league position. Which I would say is the standard quantitative measure of a managers performance:
 

Difference (Payroll Rank - League Position)

For each club:

• Payroll Rank = where they stand by wages (1 = highest spending, 24 = lowest).

• League Position = current standing (1 = top of table, 24 = bottom).

• Difference = Payroll Rank - League Position.

• If Difference is positive, the club’s league position is higher than its payroll rank, meaning over achievement.

• If Difference is negative, the club’s league position is lower than its payroll rank, meaning underachievement.

Sorting by Over/Underachievement

If you sort by Difference (descending), you see who’s most overachieving (largest positive) at the top, down to who’s most underachieving (most negative) at the bottom:

1. (+10) Sunderland (Payroll 14, League 4)
2. (+10) Blackburn Rovers (17, 7)
3. (+7) Swansea City (19, 12)
4. (+7) QPR (22, 15)
5. (+6) Coventry City (20, 14)
6. (+5) Millwall (18, 13)
7. (+4) Middlesbrough (9, 5)
8. (+3) Bristol City (13, 10)
9. (+3) Oxford United (21, 18)
10. (+3) Portsmouth (24, 21)
11. (+1) Sheffield United (4, 3)
12. (+1) Sheffield Wednesday (10, 9)
13. (0) Leeds (1, 1)
14. (0) Burnley (2, 2)
15. (0) Watford (8, 8)
16. (−1) Preston (15, 16)
17. (−1) Derby County (16, 17)
18. (−1) Plymouth Argyle (23, 24)
19. (−3) West Brom (3, 6)
20. (−5) Norwich City (6, 11)
21. (−8) Stoke City (11, 19)
22. (−10) Hull City (12, 22)
23. (−15) Luton Town (5, 20)
24. (−16) Cardiff City (7, 23)

Biggest Overachievers

• Sunderland and Blackburn Rovers both have a difference of +10
• Followed by Swansea and QPR at +7

Biggest Underachievers

• Cardiff City at −16
• Luton Town at −15
• Hull City at −10

Some of those look a bit odd. Where are the figures for the payrolls coming from?

[KentExile]

On 24/12/2024 at 15:04, chaddyrovers said:

WBA will move for out of work manager

Probably (and hopefully) right.  They no longer have parachute payments, and if I remember correctly, they had to cut the wage bill a bit during the summer to stay compliant.

That being said, if I was the West Brom owner/etc, Eustace would be exactly who I would go for.  Has proven at both Rovers and Birmingham that he can do a similar job to Corberan and get the maximum output from a relatively limited group of players.  And even though West Brom have had a drop in income recently, they surely still have more than Rovers do

[KentExile]

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Some of those look a bit odd. Where are the figures for the payrolls coming from?

Its from AI, so it will have pulled numbers from across the internet, sites like Capology ect, and amalgamated them.

All of those type of sites are guesses, but the ordering doesn't look too far out at first glance to me, although I would have thought Oxford & Plymouth would have been 23 & 24 on the payroll order

[RevidgeBlue]

2 minutes ago, KentExile said:

Probably (and hopefully) right.  They no longer have parachute payments, and if I remember correctly, they had to cut the wage bill a bit during the summer to stay compliant.

That being said, if I was the West Brom owner/etc, Eustace would be exactly who I would go for.  Has proven at both Rovers and Birmingham that he can do a similar job to Corberan and get the maximum output from a relatively limited group of players.  And even though West Brom have had a drop in income recently, they surely still have more than Rovers do

Par for the course recently, Eustace was apparently linked to the WBA job by Alex Crook from Talksport yesterday who claimed Eustace's name had come up in discussions at the Club.

As I've always said I think there must be some underlying reason why Eustace always seems to be a leading contender every time a job becomes available elsewhere. As much as we need fresh blood on the pitch I'd be even happier to see an announcement that Eustace has been given an improved deal. Fat chance with Waggott in charge though Id imagine.

[JHRover]

Now would be the perfect time for all concerned for Eustace to get an improved and extended deal.

He's approaching a year in the job and has unquestionably done a very good job so far in very difficult circumstances.

His original deal expires in 18 months, by the summer it will need addressing in any event.

He's done exactly what the Indians want from their manager which is to knuckle down and work with a limited budget and keep the attention off them. Similar to Mowbray in that respect though I think Eustace in private at least will be a lot more ambitious.

Already this season we've had his name 'linked' - and I use that word loosely as a lot of it simply seems to be his name appearing in the betting odds - but his name has been mentioned for Hull, Coventry, Stoke and West Brom. 

Not only is it frankly outrageous that our manager is seriously considered as an option for a move to any of those clubs, summing up the state the Indians have us in, it is also a perfect reason to nip that in the bud with a better deal for him. It would also protect the club more if a club did come in for him, which if current progress continues will happen sooner or later.

Sadly all this is too much logic and sense for Venky Rovers and they will see no reason at all to do anything about this until May 2026 when he is already clearing his desk (see Mowbray's final weeks). 

Contract extensions clearly aren't being authorised by the Indians - when was the last time a senior player or manager signed a new, extended contract?

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, KentExile said:

Its from AI, so it will have pulled numbers from across the internet, sites like Capology ect, and amalgamated them.

All of those type of sites are guesses, but the ordering doesn't look too far out at first glance to me, although I would have thought Oxford & Plymouth would have been 23 & 24 on the payroll order

Curiosity value only really. Leeds can't win by that metric, you cant do any more than be top irrespective of your budget yet they appear half way down the table. Conversely even if Plymouth had zero points, (they're not doing a whole lot better) they still wouldn't appear very low in the table.

It does give a rough idea of one or two Clubs that are vastly overperforming to budget or vice versa, the two that spring to mind are us and Luton. You don't need AI to tell you that.

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Contract extensions clearly aren't being authorised by the Indians - when was the last time a senior player or manager signed a new, extended contract?

Adam Wharton?

And that was only with a view to flogging him, not keeping him here.

[47er]

I think we'll lose him. Its impossible to ignore what a great job he's doing here on scraps

Some club will offer him more and Venkys won't match it, let alone top it.

[JHRover]

3 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Adam Wharton?

And that was only with a view to flogging him, not keeping him here.

I wouldn't class him as a senior player at the time he signed it. I think he had just made the breakthrough to the first team from the academy and suspect they just got him onto a senior level deal, rather than improving what was already a senior deal. May be wrong though.

We keep hearing these tales of Dolan etc. refusing to sign new deals but there's precious little evidence other than the word of a proven liar that the club is doing anything to address anyone's contract situations. This goes way back to Lenihan, Rothwell etc. They can claim as many times as they like that they are making good offers and trying to secure them but until at least one of them signs and commits I will have my doubts as to how genuine those claims are.

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I wouldn't class him as a senior player at the time he signed it. I think he had just made the breakthrough to the first team from the academy and suspect they just got him onto a senior level deal, rather than improving what was already a senior deal. May be wrong though.

We keep hearing these tales of Dolan etc. refusing to sign new deals but there's precious little evidence other than the word of a proven liar that the club is doing anything to address anyone's contract situations. This goes way back to Lenihan, Rothwell etc. They can claim as many times as they like that they are making good offers and trying to secure them but until at least one of them signs and commits I will have my doubts as to how genuine those claims are.

May or may not be true but I was led to believe at the time that very little effort was made to try and persuade Brereton to commit to a new deal.

[wilsdenrover]

12 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I wouldn't class him as a senior player at the time he signed it. I think he had just made the breakthrough to the first team from the academy and suspect they just got him onto a senior level deal, rather than improving what was already a senior deal. May be wrong though.

We keep hearing these tales of Dolan etc. refusing to sign new deals but there's precious little evidence other than the word of a proven liar that the club is doing anything to address anyone's contract situations. This goes way back to Lenihan, Rothwell etc. They can claim as many times as they like that they are making good offers and trying to secure them but until at least one of them signs and commits I will have my doubts as to how genuine those claims are.

Szmodics signed a new contract late November ‘23 - as per @RevidgeBlue suggestion re Wharton, this was probably done with his sale value in mind.

[MarkBRFC]

37 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Contract extensions clearly aren't being authorised by the Indians - when was the last time a senior player or manager signed a new, extended contract?

None in the whole of 2024.

JRC being the last in December 2023.

Contract extensions aren't happening here anymore, back to the days of watching folk walk out of the door for nothing.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Par for the course recently, Eustace was apparently linked to the WBA job by Alex Crook from Talksport yesterday who claimed Eustace's name had come up in discussions at the Club.

As I've always said I think there must be some underlying reason why Eustace always seems to be a leading contender every time a job becomes available elsewhere. As much as we need fresh blood on the pitch I'd be even happier to see an announcement that Eustace has been given an improved deal. Fat chance with Waggott in charge though Id imagine.

The underlying reason = the chicken chokers, and working for them. We’ll never thrive as long as their name is over the door. They probably think they can get another manager just like they can for their chicken sheds back in India.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The underlying reason = the chicken chokers, and working for them. We’ll never thrive as long as their name is over the door. They probably think they can get another manager just like they can for their chicken sheds back in India.

Do you think Waggott is actually going to them and saying "Look this guy is doing really well and is attracting a lot of outside interest, I think he needs an improved contract?"