Valérien Ismaël: Blackburn Rovers Head Coach

[Gav]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Correct but was being 9th with Watford sackable offence really? Has Cleverley done better there?

He played more possession based football at Watford but he still had a target man in his squad. I remember when Rajovic and Healey scored for Watford at Ewood and we lose. Also had Wahlstedt in goal

I think todays Blackburn Rovers is more of a fit to the Barnsley side he managed, than the Watford side chaddy. Watford had been in the Premiership relatively recently when Ismael arrived, still had players to plaY that possession football, but we will see I guess.

One thing is for sure, if he's doing well at Christmas, somehow the rug will be pulled and he will walk, or stay and pick up his money.

VENKYS OUT - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. 

[Exiled_Rover]

8 minutes ago, TimmyJimmy said:

I'm saying what you already know. Every window we desperately write hundreds of pages on this board saying we really, really need good players in positions x, y and z. Consistently we are disappointed because no one of quality turns up. We end up with bargain basement journeymen usually at the end of their career plus the odd Liverpool junior loanee.

Of our academy graduates we have only one success and we sold him as soon as we possibly could. Before that you have to go back to Phil Jones. Ash we never got to see so contributed nothing to our team.

This leaves the likes of JRC and Buckley to drool over each week. A success? Really??

VI will get only more of this. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Whether VI is good, bad or indifferent is irrelevant because we don't currently have the players worthy of the badge and he won't get any from this shower Venky con-men.

Hero managers from the past wouldn't get a tune out of this lot. Managed decline is the order of the day. VI is just here to rearrange the deckchairs on the good ship Venky FC, sister ship to the Titanic. So to answer your question, THAT'S what 'slightly' concerns me.

Travis, Carter, S. Wharton - all mainstays in the team. JRC is fine (if he wasn't constantly injured) and Buckley is a busted flush. 

The Academy produces one or two PL talents every five years. That's simply the nature of the beast - we're in a ridiculous catchment area (Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Everton) so we don't get the absolute cream of the crop, but we make the best of what we do get our hands on.

It's also why their policy of relying on the Academy to fund the club AND produce more than half of the starting XI is doomed to fail - even if it has saved them for the past five years. When Phillips and Finneran are being stolen from the cradle you have no chance. 

[roversfan99]

There have been examples of both sides of people massaging Ismael's career to suit an argument on either side.

He was poached from Barnsley after overachieving there. He was doing a good job clearly and was picked up by a better side. Its unfair to suggest that he didnt.

On the flip side, he was sacked at West Brom and Watford for not doing a good job. You cant take where he was out of context but at West Brom the expectation was automatic promotion and his team was getting worse, journalists and supporters alike expected and welcomed his departure. And at Watford, you cant just dismiss it as being at Watford as if it was an unwarranted dismissal by a trigger happy club. Again, his sacking was in the pipeline, greeted positively when it happened.

You also cant compare it to the jobs done by subsequent managers. Ismael had both of those clubs at times where he inherited a much stronger situation, West Brom had just come down and he was allowed to bring in a couple of players he had worked with before. Watford also had a better squad than what Cleverley has got to work with.

[TimmyJimmy]

31 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Travis, Carter, S. Wharton - all mainstays in the team. JRC is fine (if he wasn't constantly injured) and Buckley is a busted flush. 

The Academy produces one or two PL talents every five years. That's simply the nature of the beast - we're in a ridiculous catchment area (Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Everton) so we don't get the absolute cream of the crop, but we make the best of what we do get our hands on.

It's also why their policy of relying on the Academy to fund the club AND produce more than half of the starting XI is doomed to fail - even if it has saved them for the past five years. When Phillips and Finneran are being stolen from the cradle you have no chance. 

I think we're on the same page.

I'd just add that whilst Travis, Carter, S. Wharton ARE mainstays of the team they shouldn't be. They try hard, they improve year on year, they're good guys but ultimately at any sensible club they'd be viewed as squad fillers.

I think that's the point, when they were prospects it was exciting to dream about the future but now as mature players they really didn't make it big did they.

I like good guys who try hard but any dispassionate assessment of how they turned out and should they hold down a place in team, mmm, I think lower level Championship is their level, which is why we are at that level too.

We need better and we are not producing better. If we did we'd do what we always do and sell them. The Academy is only good for  paying future bills. For guys actually playing for us and getting top 6 we need to buy finished the article.

We don't, we buy goods past their BBD and sometimes past their Use Buy Date.

Nothing will change as long as Venkys are in charge. It's what they do. It's what they believe. We can't lease our way to promotion neither can we breed our way to promotion. Jack's way is the only way which is why he was a genius who fortunately loved our club.

I think we are agreeing n'est pas?

[islander200]

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There have been examples of both sides of people massaging Ismael's career to suit an argument on either side.

He was poached from Barnsley after overachieving there. He was doing a good job clearly and was picked up by a better side. Its unfair to suggest that he didnt.

On the flip side, he was sacked at West Brom and Watford for not doing a good job. You cant take where he was out of context but at West Brom the expectation was automatic promotion and his team was getting worse, journalists and supporters alike expected and welcomed his departure. And at Watford, you cant just dismiss it as being at Watford as if it was an unwarranted dismissal by a trigger happy club. Again, his sacking was in the pipeline, greeted positively when it happened.

You also cant compare it to the jobs done by subsequent managers. Ismael had both of those clubs at times where he inherited a much stronger situation, West Brom had just come down and he was allowed to bring in a couple of players he had worked with before. Watford also had a better squad than what Cleverley has got to work with.

At West Brom they were 5th when he left and only 8 points off 2nd place in february.The change of manager did nothing  they ended the season in tenth.Maybe the squad of players wasn't as good as their supporters,  journalists and board thought. 

I'm coming across as an Ismael fan boy, I'm not he wouldn't have been on my radar if I owned the Club.And early signs here are not encouraging but why don't we just give him a bit of time before we rush to any conclusions. 

[martonrover]

The project is dead, long live the project, (until this one dies in about a year or so).

”No - one else will believe Suhail and Waggott” are the cries.

A guaranteed , cool 1.8 million quid might just render that as irrelevant.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

At West Brom they were 5th when he left and only 8 points off 2nd place in february.The change of manager did nothing  they ended the season in tenth.Maybe the squad of players wasn't as good as their supporters,  journalists and board thought. 

I'm coming across as an Ismael fan boy, I'm not he wouldn't have been on my radar if I owned the Club.And early signs here are not encouraging but why don't we just give him a bit of time before we rush to any conclusions. 

Feels like people are rewriting history based from afar and purely on league positions without context to say that he did a good job when he was expectedly sacked. Or equally dismissing when he did once do an impressive job at this level.

Its surely better to just judge as we go rather than setting a random time point to which we can be allowed to judge. Even if that involves early predictions, knowing that people can get things wrong. We though Eustace was going to be crap based on the early days, same with Brereton, whereas on the flip side we thought Cantwell would be a potentialy good signing. 

I havent personally said he definitely will be a failure, although even if he isnt he will be undermined and it ends the same as if he is crap. But not only the results which are beyond just an extension of typical bad run of form considering the opposition, but the tactics he seems keen to adopt, just doesnt make sense.

[M_B]

37 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Feels like people are rewriting history based from afar and purely on league positions without context to say that he did a good job when he was expectedly sacked. Or equally dismissing when he did once do an impressive job at this level.

Its surely better to just judge as we go rather than setting a random time point to which we can be allowed to judge. Even if that involves early predictions, knowing that people can get things wrong. We though Eustace was going to be crap based on the early days, same with Brereton, whereas on the flip side we thought Cantwell would be a potentialy good signing. 

I havent personally said he definitely will be a failure, although even if he isnt he will be undermined and it ends the same as if he is crap. But not only the results which are beyond just an extension of typical bad run of form considering the opposition, but the tactics he seems keen to adopt, just doesnt make sense.

I didn't think Eustace was crap or otherwise, it was always the sensible thing to do to get last season out of the way and give him a clean slate going into this season.

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, islander200 said:

At West Brom they were 5th when he left and only 8 points off 2nd place in february.The change of manager did nothing  they ended the season in tenth.Maybe the squad of players wasn't as good as their supporters,  journalists and board thought. 

I'm coming across as an Ismael fan boy, I'm not he wouldn't have been on my radar if I owned the Club.And early signs here are not encouraging but why don't we just give him a bit of time before we rush to any conclusions. 

Yes I think that for me too the West Brom failure wasn't so worrying, as they did worse without him. That said if his stint there is not a negative it's not a plus either! 

Wasn't my first choice but I would have had a look at him based on his Barnsley achievement and other experiences in England. Seen if he was a dark horse or not, something I suspected he might have been. 

Problem is it's looking like he's a one legged donkey...

[roversfan99]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-valerien-ismael-sacked-22958279.amp

Here is an article on him. They started really well and then nosedived, he was tactically inflexible and had started to fall out with senior players. He was also replaced by Steve Bruce inheriting an unhappy squad so that doesnt scream bringing in someone to do the job properly.

I dont know why his time there is being reconstructed as somewhat successful. It wasnt.

[chaddyrovers]

10 hours ago, MarkBRFC said:

Depends what the mandate was when he took over?

Seeing as the club were still receiving parachute payments, maybe they agreed that he would have them in and around the top 2?

If that was the case, then yes being 9th in March was probably a sackable offence.

true but Watford haven't done any better since and I think Tom Cleverly has done a very good job there in his first head coach job with not a lot of money spent there 

10 hours ago, Gav said:

I think todays Blackburn Rovers is more of a fit to the Barnsley side he managed, than the Watford side chaddy. Watford had been in the Premiership relatively recently when Ismael arrived, still had players to plaY that possession football, but we will see I guess.

Barnsley style under Ismael was unique and not something we could do. Yes we can play direct and into Gueye which at times I would do more especially at Goal kicks and free kicks. 

Yes Ismael said he had the players at Watford to play a more possession but they still had the target man in Rajovic tho. He changed the game as Ewood when he came on and we lost 2 -1 with Rajovic and Healey scoring

6 hours ago, M_B said:

I didn't think Eustace was crap or otherwise, it was always the sensible thing to do to get last season out of the way and give him a clean slate going into this season.

great point when he could played his prefer style and how he wanted to play. I still think the first game of the season was our best performance and the way we counter attack so quickly. 

I still want us to be good counter attacking team and have pace in the team and energy in the team. I would prefer to play with pace wide(at least 1 side) and Gueye up front and Ohashi as the 10 getting crosses into the box. 

I wouldn't be playing out from the back again like we do or previously do but have more possession in their half and created more chances which is something we don't do enough. 

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-valerien-ismael-sacked-22958279.amp

Here is an article on him. They started really well and then nosedived, he was tactically inflexible and had started to fall out with senior players. He was also replaced by Steve Bruce inheriting an unhappy squad so that doesnt scream bringing in someone to do the job properly.

I dont know why his time there is being reconstructed as somewhat successful. It wasnt.

Maybe Ismael has learnt from that WBA experience but lets not re0write history. WBA haven't done better since he left but still around the playoffs. They loved Corberan there but he didn't any better. Probably a more pleasing style and Corberan was good tactically. 

[roversfan99]

24 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

true but Watford haven't done any better since and I think Tom Cleverly has done a very good job there in his first head coach job with not a lot of money spent there 

Barnsley style under Ismael was unique and not something we could do. Yes we can play direct and into Gueye which at times I would do more especially at Goal kicks and free kicks. 

Yes Ismael said he had the players at Watford to play a more possession but they still had the target man in Rajovic tho. He changed the game as Ewood when he came on and we lost 2 -1 with Rajovic and Healey scoring

great point when he could played his prefer style and how he wanted to play. I still think the first game of the season was our best performance and the way we counter attack so quickly. 

I still want us to be good counter attacking team and have pace in the team and energy in the team. I would prefer to play with pace wide(at least 1 side) and Gueye up front and Ohashi as the 10 getting crosses into the box. 

I wouldn't be playing out from the back again like we do or previously do but have more possession in their half and created more chances which is something we don't do enough. 

Maybe Ismael has learnt from that WBA experience but lets not re0write history. WBA haven't done better since he left but still around the playoffs. They loved Corberan there but he didn't any better. Probably a more pleasing style and Corberan was good tactically. 

Im not re writing history, he was sacked by both West Brom and Watford within a year with both sides in a rut, and both sackings were seen as totally understandable and expected. Neither spell went to plan, and he had both clubs in far better positions with stronger squads than subsequent managers there as the parachute payments slow down. I would argue that the one re writing history is the one trying to make out as if his spells at West Brom and Watford were successful.

He may have learnt from his mistakes, thats what we need to hope. He couldnt have started much worse, in 4 games and a very favourable run of fixtures, hes taken us from being in the play offs to be pretty much out of contention entirely. Some feat.

You seem to have kidded yourself into thinking that him saying he wants to play quick possession football will lead to this lovely balanced style of sometimes going long, only ever playing in the right areas and everything going to plan. His only success came playing direct football which apparently he cant repeat here. The current squad isnt suited to possession heavy football, the resources arent there to overhaul the squad, and a far more talented coach in Tomasson couldnt be successful adopting that style.

That Rovers v Watford game has become a bit of an obsession of yours. From what I remember, it was an uneventful game settled by a goalkeeping howler. That Rajovic was a really poor striker.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Im not re writing history, he was sacked by both West Brom and Watford within a year with both sides in a rut, and both sackings were seen as totally understandable and expected. Neither spell went to plan, and he had both clubs in far better positions with stronger squads than subsequent managers there as the parachute payments slow down. I would argue that the one re writing history is the one trying to make out as if his spells at West Brom and Watford were successful.

Sacked at WBA when in the playoffs. Shit decision and 9th by Watford..

Have either done better after he left? No they haven't. 

 

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

He may have learnt from his mistakes, thats what we need to hope. He couldnt have started much worse, in 4 games and a very favourable run of fixtures, hes taken us from being in the play offs to be pretty much out of contention entirely. Some feat.

So no blamed again on the players like on buckling under pressure at Derby again. They couldn't defend at Derby in the first 10 mins. 

If Dolan's goal had stood last game, we win that game. 

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You seem to have kidded yourself into thinking that him saying he wants to play quick possession football will lead to this lovely balanced style of sometimes going long, only ever playing in the right areas and everything going to plan. His only success came playing direct football which apparently he cant repeat here. The current squad isnt suited to possession heavy football, the resources arent there to overhaul the squad, and a far more talented coach in Tomasson couldnt be successful adopting that style.

I have given on what style he might implement next season. We see in pre season. 

I have given my opinion on what my style would be. 

 

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

That Rovers v Watford game has become a bit of an obsession of yours. From what I remember, it was an uneventful game settled by a goalkeeping howler. That Rajovic was a really poor striker.

Obsession? Not at all. Abit like your asking questions but refusing to answers them

10 goals wasn't it from Rajovic first season at this level. 

Abit like Wallace being a has-been at aged 30. 

[USABlue]

So this fella has been here 4 games.  He came in saying we were going to keep the push for playoffs going and we promptly got battered by 3 of the 4 worst teams in this league.  Now we sre going to rebuild in summer.  Yes VI is going to put together a squad competetive for League 1.  More money saved with L1 wages.  Waggots a genius 

[lraC]

3 hours ago, USABlue said:

So this fella has been here 4 games.  He came in saying we were going to keep the push for playoffs going and we promptly got battered by 3 of the 4 worst teams in this league.  Now we sre going to rebuild in summer.  Yes VI is going to put together a squad competetive for League 1.  More money saved with L1 wages.  Waggots a genius 

Allez Les bleus!!! 

[Bohinen1983]

Cracks me up, rebuild, projects,  building slowly, building properly..  What a load of bollocks. You buy good players, better than what other teams have and then get in a semi-decent manager..   I hate these daft terms knocked around..   If you're scrapping around in the bargain bucket spending pennies it's highly probably you're going to pull out crap..   Can't even sort out the contracts of existing players.  What an absolute mess!

[Leonard Venkhater]

Not one honest attempt in 13 years..

A charade!

[Hasta]

19 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Sacked at WBA when in the playoffs. Shit decision and 9th by Watford..

Have either done better after he left? No they haven't. 

I presume therefore that you think Steve Kean was the best manager Rovers had in the championship. Sacked when 4th in the league. 

[chaddyrovers]

43 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I presume therefore that you think Steve Kean was the best manager Rovers had in the championship. Sacked when 4th in the league. 

Embarrassing post 

[Hasta]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Embarrassing post 

Not really.

Ismael still had players from West Brom’s premier league campaign, they still,had parachute moneys and spent £8million on a striker. Therefore expectations were quite rightly high. Theyy were 2nd favourites to win the league that season. They had been in the top 3 most of the season until December and then started playing poorly and had dropped to 6th. So it wasn’t really as ‘shit’ a decision as you say.

They haven’t done any better since because for the last couple of years they’ve spent little and almost gone bust.

If all you are basing the decision to sack him as being ‘shit’ on is purely because they were 6th at the time, then the Kean point stands.

Edited 7 hours ago by Hasta

[Tricky]

All this guy needs to do is meet and clap the fans at the end of the game, like the players. Whatever the result or performance, otherwise this is going to get toxic very quickly...

[martonrover]

12 minutes ago, Tricky said:

All this guy needs to do is meet and clap the fans at the end of the game, like the players. Whatever the result or performance, otherwise this is going to get toxic very quickly...

Ismael needs to win some games to defuse a rapidly escalating fan revolt.

However, given the ludicrous length of his contract, it’s Waggott and Suhail who are the ones feeling the heat.

[USABlue]

36 minutes ago, martonrover said:

Ismael needs to win some games to defuse a rapidly escalating fan revolt.

However, given the ludicrous length of his contract, it’s Waggott and Suhail who are the ones feeling the heat.

Yes the length of his contract seems a bit against the grain of what Wags & co. might normally do, did the FAX work when it wasn't supposed to.  No seriously though with the way this lot, Venkies, have run Rovers it immediately makes me suspiscious, something backhanded or untoward is going on.  It's the environment they have set for me.

I know I do not pay for season tickets or attend any games but I do still spend on following us, it is getting hard to find reasons to keep spending other than a strange addiction us footy fans have.  Seriously the expectation is to spend a few bob for some entertainment not to be made manic depressive.  The international break has shown me that watching my dandelions grow is on a par for entertainment with Rovers at the mo.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

Not really.

Ismael still had players from West Brom’s premier league campaign, they still,had parachute moneys and spent £8million on a striker. Therefore expectations were quite rightly high. Theyy were 2nd favourites to win the league that season. They had been in the top 3 most of the season until December and then started playing poorly and had dropped to 6th. So it wasn’t really as ‘shit’ a decision as you say.

They haven’t done any better since because for the last couple of years they’ve spent little and almost gone bust.

If all you are basing the decision to sack him as being ‘shit’ on is purely because they were 6th at the time, then the Kean point stands.

The other argument is that managers havent finished higher than where Ismael was mid season since.

Ismael had those clubs at stronger points than those since. West Brom as you say had just gone down, they finished the season Ismael left with Steve Bruce. Once they wasted that season, it naturally gets harder and harder to compete at the top and they have had financial issues since. The squad Cleverley got at Watford was weaker too.

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, USABlue said:

Yes the length of his contract seems a bit against the grain of what Wags & co. might normally do, did the FAX work when it wasn't supposed to.  No seriously though with the way this lot, Venkies, have run Rovers it immediately makes me suspiscious, something backhanded or untoward is going on.  It's the environment they have set for me.

I know I do not pay for season tickets or attend any games but I do still spend on following us, it is getting hard to find reasons to keep spending other than a strange addiction us footy fans have.  Seriously the expectation is to spend a few bob for some entertainment not to be made manic depressive.  The international break has shown me that watching my dandelions grow is on a par for entertainment with Rovers at the mo.

It was their PR move to head off Eustace's talking point about there not being a long-term plan.

It looks to have spectacularly backfired.