Decent holiday reads anyone?

[Morph]

Problem is, Morph, that the titles to which you refer are the new middle-class intelligentsia reference points that are intended to  show just how smart they are because they get the point to what are actually pointless stories.

In addition, we can all be smart at this level; however, the point I am trying to make (badly) is that, whilst the pen is always mightier than the sword, the titles to which you refer are simply anaesthetic - genuine literature changes the world, or the way we think about it - it doesn't reinforce the status quo. Tolkein, whilst a good story-teller, does nothing other than allow people to pretend to think they are clever because they can follow a plot that is basically a fairy tale they read as a child and therefore makes them feel both secure (childhood associations) and smart at the same time. It doesn't change the world and presents the pen as an anaesthetic rather than sword - it is this latter point that makes it worthy of nothing as it changes nothing.

My own thoughts on why Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, etc. are so successful is a little different Drummer Boy. Rather than some secret new front the damned middle classes have opened up against the working man in an ongoing class war, as you seem to be suggesting (if I have mis-understood I apologise, it is late) I think it has more to do with the dumbing down of modern society (for which the BBC, amongst others, has a great deal to answer). Having read one of the Harry Potter books (albeit in the secrecy of my own home) in order to further ingratiate myself with a good looking woman I know that likes them, I now can't think of anything more pathetic than the sight of a grown adult reading one of the damn things in public!. These people may as well hang a sign around their necks saying "I have the mental age and emotional maturity of a 12 year old", because that is what they are telling the world as they sit on the train proudly reading "Harry and the Hobnob of Fire" or whatever. LOTR is a slightly different story (no pun intended) because despite being essentially a children's story, and a damn good one at that, it is at least couched in adult language (although I will take the chronicles of Elric of Melnibone thanks, the true pinnacle of fantasy literature).

One other thing I would say is that you have pre-supposed in your arguement that people only ever read certain sorts of books, or that some types are inately superior to others:

genuine literature changes the world, or the way we think about it.

I would disagree. Right now I am reading "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester. It's generally considered to be one of the most influential science fiction novels of the 1950's, and it's a cracking read, but it's never going to start any revolutions, and nor would I expect it to. That doesn't mean that it is not without merit, but as with any novel those merits must be judged within the context of the genre it inhabits.

[Drummer Boy]

Good post, morph - your're making me think when I should be in bed and fast asleep.

My perspective is less to do with class war and more to do with dumbing down to a list mentality and a "best of .... ever" attitude.  On this point, I think we are as one; however, whilst I fully empathise with your motives for reading Harry Potter and accept LOTR is a good story, I am not advocating superiority by dint of what you read, quite the opposite, in fact.

Let's take your Bester book - is it likely to change (or even influence) the way you think about the world you live in? Did you need a poll to get you to read it? is it in the Big Read? Is it BBC-approved? Is it any less a novel for any of the answers to these questions? Did you have to be told, albeit implicitly, by a group of people presented as your literary superiors to read it?

Therefore, I still think I have a point about the inherent elitism, combined with concurrent dumbing down, of the Big read as a concept. It's only purpose is to stimulate debate in the mode of "question time" - my concern is that it will be taken as "gospel" rather than an opinion as to what constitutes literature.

[Morph]

Suppose it all boils down to how we define the terms "elitism" and "populism" Drummer Boy. If the list of books on The Big Read was 100% based on votes by the general public, then I would define it as more populist than elitist. If the shortlist was chosen by committee then it leaves itself open to accusations of elitism of a sort, if only in the latter stages. Personally I thought the series was a great idea. If it persuaded even one person to turn off Pop Idol and pick up a book, any book (even Harry Potter), and as Sidders points out, increased library figures would suggest that it did, then it can only have been a good thing in my opinion.

[FourLaneBlue]

Fair point - maybe I missed the point: The public voted for what was put in front of them, by their literary guardians at the beeb. Regardless, the shortlist bears little resemblance to what most people outside the circles I describe actually read.

The shortlist was not chosen by any "literary guardians at the beeb". The original 100 was chosen by the public, the shortlist was chosen by the public and the winning book was chosen by the public. It isn't even just the Beeb-watching public, votes were cast at bookshops and shopping centres up and down the country. How that can be viewed as 'elitist' I don't know.

Besides if you look at the final 21 it was blatantly not elitist. Where was Crime and Punishment? Ulysess? Don Quixote? No Proust or Virginia Woolf or Joseph Conrad or George Eliot etc etc.

The books are simply the most popular reads at this moment or at least what people think are or were their favourite reads. Personally I thought it was a good list. Tolkien was always favourite to win, not only has it been consistently popular but the recent films meant it must have won by a large amount. As for the others there must be at least a few books of the final 21 that every person would like. Personally I'd like to have seen 1984 win, just because I thought it was a fantastic read and does change the way the reader views the world, if only for the time when they are reading it.

That doesn't mean that other books on the list don't change the way we see things. Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings for example get far, far more people into reading books than something like War and Peace, which I still haven't managed to finish despite having started it about ten times. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is wrapped up in Christian symbolism but I haven't met anyone who hasn't liked it even despite that. Gone With the Wind is shockingly racist in places but still a great read and that's all the Big Read was looking for.

Great writers from the past like Dickens, Austen, Tolstoy and the Brontes were there along with the likes of Douglas Adams and Winnie the Pooh. Even Jeffrey Archer and Stephen King were in the last 100 so I can't see what you have against it. There was something for everyone as far as I can see and it was all voted for by the public.

[Cheeky Sidders]

Bloody well said, FLB.

[FourLaneBlue]

In addition, we can all be smart at this level; however, the point I am trying to make (badly) is that, whilst the pen is always mightier than the sword, the titles to which you refer are simply anaesthetic - genuine literature changes the world, or the way we think about it - it doesn't reinforce the status quo. Tolkein, whilst a good story-teller, does nothing other than allow people to pretend to think they are clever because they can follow a plot that is basically a fairy tale they read as a child and therefore makes them feel both secure (childhood associations) and smart at the same time. It doesn't change the world and presents the pen as an anaesthetic rather than sword - it is this latter point that makes it worthy of nothing as it changes nothing.

Now that is an eletist view! Literature is only worthwhile if it changes the world? Absolute rubbish. Literature is only worthwhile if it any good, that is all. Since when did Iain Banks last change the world?

Regarding your thoughts on The Lord of the Rings- it was voted for because it is a bloody good read and people like it! Nothing to do with it being a "middle-class intelligentsia reference point", which I don't understand what you mean by anyway. The 'intelligentsia' would be more likely to look down on something such as the work of Tolkien. There has been a number of broadsheet articles decrying the choice of Lord of the Rings. You say that the list as a whole doesn't represent what people from your circle would want- good, that's the point. It is a generalisation of the reading habits of the nation, not the reading list of an individual or small group. Which is why books like The Shell Seekers by Rosamunde Pilcher was on the list- enough people liked it.

Of the top 100 I'd read about 35 when the list came out, almost all the so-called 'classics' on there because I have read what I have told is the 'elite' of literature. If the list was elitist it would have had far more of those types in. It isn't that at all though. Since the list came out I've read quite a few on there that I would almost certainly never have contemplated but as many people obviously love them I gave them a try. Often I loved them. The Thorn Birds, Holes, The Secret History, The Pillars of the Earth, Goodnight Mister Tom were all unexpectedly great reads. Even liked Kane and Abel by Jeffrey Archer which was a surprise. 'Magician' by Raymon E Feist was truly awful though. Nothing as poor as that would ever get on an 'elitict' list.

As for Dickens- so what, he isn't to your taste. Personally i can't stand Joseph Conrad but that doesn't make him overrated. Just not to my taste. As for Dickens you say he is overrated. Well, he is often described as the greatest novelist ever. In my opinion that doesn't make him overrated. Just my opinion though, like you have yours. Neither of us is necessarily right, we are allowed our opinion.

To sum up as I seem to be waffling on, anything that gets people reading more is ok in my book. The books on the list have seen a large rise in sales but so have other books. This project may not be to the taste of everyone but if you ask me it is one of the best things the BBC has done in years.

[Drummer Boy]

OK, OK - I know when I'm beat and, in future, I promise not to post e-mails late saturday night when I'm @#/? and argumentative!!

[Cheeky Sidders]

OK, OK - I know when I'm beat and, in future, I promise not to post e-mails late saturday night when I'm @#/? and argumentative!!

Ha ha - they always crack in the end!  

[FourLaneBlue]

OK, OK - I know when I'm beat and, in future, I promise not to post e-mails late saturday night when I'm @#/? and argumentative!!

Fair enough I'll belt up then. Posting after a night in the pub is never a good idea I know that from personal experience!

[FourLaneBlue]

It's unlikely I'll be going on holiday as such this year but I may well be travelling a long way for a job...

Just wondering if anybody has any decent book recommendations a year on? Ones that I can read on the plane and after???

[FourLaneBlue]

Anyway...

A cracker is 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the night time' by Mark Haddon. It is centred around a boy with Asperger's Syndrome which tends to allow for very focused minds. As it is from his point of view it is a bit different from the normal viewpoint. Or so i would imagine, I wouldn't know as it is impossible for me to say what it is like in the head of someone else...not with a that kind of disability (if disability is the right word...)

Anyway it won the Whitbread Book Award this year and is available for £3.67 at Tesco.

No idea why it is that particular price though...

Edited April 28, 2004 by FourLaneBlue

[Ste B]

Just started Chuck Palanuiks "Diary" today, if its half as good as his others then it will be a cracker. Fight Club everybody probably knows, but I'd heartily recommend Survivor, its a really well thought out work.

[Ste B]

<font color='#000000'>

Armageddon the Musical, first book of the series try that and then carry on

The Antipope, East of Ealing, Brenford Triangle, or any of the 5 part Brentford Trilogy.

The armageddon series can be hard to read if you've not read any of his stuff before.

I read 'Waiting for Godalming' and enjoyed it.

Some while later I read 'Nostradamus ate my Hamster' and found it the strangest book I've ever read.

Then I read another one about Billy Barnes, can't remember the name.   That was very disturbing too (and not the Barnes web thing).   I've now given up on Rankin as being too weird.

If ever there was an author whose books you have to read in chronological order, then Robert Rankin is one of them. Theres so many in jokes from the earlier books (Lazlo Woodbine, Time Sprouts, Hugo Rune), that it makes it quite disconcerting for the newer readers.

[Blueboy Downunder]

crisis four by andy mcnabb....a former gulf war veteran.

absoultely sensational book and gripping with twists and turns aswell. am currently reading another of his books...."last light"....which is also very good.

ROVERS FOREVER

[1864roverite]

ian bothams re edited biography or Phil Tuffnell, both very entertaining and very funny

[percy]

apologies if these have already been mentioned :

'Are You Dave Gorman ? by Dave Gorman - diary of 2 friends travelling the world trying to meet as many Dave Gormans as they can after a drunken pub bet.......very funny and well written.

'McCarthy's Bar' & 'The Road To McCarthy' by Pete McCarthy.

very witty journals of Pete's quest to trace the history of his surname and his Irish roots.

'Miracle of Castel di Sangro' by Joe McGinness.

another journal - this time an Amercian follows a lowly Italian football team for a season. Interesting match fixing revelations in the book meant that it was banned in Italy.

None of these are masterpieces, but they are qyuite easy to pick up for a few mins here and there when on holiday. Pete McCarthy kept me sniggering to myself (and no doubt looking like a right eejit) for a good couple of hours when the Amtrak between Buffalo / Toronto broke down last winter. Almost disappointed when we started moving again !

[Radagast]

I'm reading Dante's Inferno just now, a translation by an Irish chap called Ciaran Crason. Interesting stuff, some of it is inevitably lost in translation though. If only I could learn coloquial (sp!) 13th century Italian.

I'm planning to read David Gemmel's current book, The Swords Of Night and Day next, has anyone else read it? The premise sounds like quite a big departure from his usual style.

[blue phil]

FLB ; I really must recommend "In the Heart of the Sea " by Nathanial Philbrick , the best book I read last year. It's about the sinking of the whaleship Essex in the 19th century , said to be the inspiration behind Moby Dick . Hard men , hard times ......

[American]

I mostly go for hard-boiled detective books, tend to have favorites by city (for all of these authors, start at the beginning of the series):

Boston - Dennis Lehane

New York - Laurence Block

D.C. - George Pelecanos

LA - Walter Mosley

Upper Michigan (not a city, I know) - Steve Hamilton

As for other novels, I really like the 2 by Harris (haven't read Pompey yet, waiting for paperback) and Richard Price is really good once you get into the books - Clockers is one of my favorites.

[berkshireblue]

FLB

Just starting The Life of Pi by Yann Martell....so far so good

The Road to Nab End set in Blackburn, excellent...

Read Attonement by Ian McCewan prior to that..which was fairly good for a Booker short list

All time favourite Catcher in the Rye...

Cheers

[FourLaneBlue]

All time favourite Catcher in the Rye...

Good Choice....

Although my all-time favourite is still 1984. Just an awesome book and changes the way any reader views the world. If reading that book doesn;t get you thinking then quite frankly you are either or dead or a moron.

Drummer Boy- although we seemed to be arguing from different sides I agree with your choices, especially Tin Drum.

If you like bizarre- try Philip Roth. Weird and, to be honest, utter filth in parts. Read 'Sabbath's Theater' recently about a puppet-artist expecting a nice chilled read and what did I get? Sex and violence all the way through. I felt obliged to read to the very, very end just to say how shocking it was!!!

[colin]

'McCarthy's Bar' & 'The Road To McCarthy' by Pete McCarthy.

Very witty journals of Pete's quest to trace the history of his surname and his Irish roots.

I'll second those two.

The former is funnier (very funny), but the writing in the latter is better and covers a lot more ground. His research into the Tasmanian prisons & his desciption of the conditions is especially moving.

[Cheeky Sidders]

I've just finished The Currious Incident Of The Dog In The Night-time by Mark Haddon. Absolutely first rate.

For those that have never heard of it, it was intended as a book for teenagers but ended up winning numerous awards normally reserved for adult readers and was on the Booker prize list (although not the final shortlist).

It's about a boy called Christopher who has Asperger's Syndrome. Christopher finds a dead dog (killed with a garden fork) and the book charts his attempts to track down the killer of poor Wellington, as weel as numerous other unsavoury discoveries along the way.

It reads well for anyone who likes well-written character studies, but gives a very different slant on disabled people and will have extra appeal to appeal with knowledge/experience of learning disability. The reviews on the cover are from big name sources and all rate it very highly, with the New York Times critic even likening it to The Cathcher In The Rye.

Very well-written, very funny and very moving.

[Rachrover]

<font color='#000000'>If you want a funny read go for "Freaky Dancin'". Its an autobiography by Bez from the Happy Mondays, its a crackin good book</font>

I have that book, it is so good, very amusing had me in stitches some of the comedy antics they used to get up to!!!

[Hannah]

I've just finished The Currious Incident Of The Dog In The Night-time by Mark Haddon. Absolutely first rate.

For those that have never heard of it, it was intended as a book for teenagers but ended up winning numerous awards normally reserved for adult readers and was on the Booker prize list (although not the final shortlist).

It's about a boy called Christopher who has Asperger's Syndrome. Christopher finds a dead dog (killed with a garden fork) and the book charts his attempts to track down the killer of poor Wellington, as weel as numerous other unsavoury discoveries along the way.

It reads well for anyone who likes well-written character studies, but gives a very different slant on disabled people and will have extra appeal to appeal with knowledge/experience of learning disability. The reviews on the cover are from big name sources and all rate it very highly, with the New York Times critic even likening it to The Cathcher In The Rye.

Very well-written, very funny and very moving.

I bought that book yesterday. It sounds really good and im really looking forward to reading it.

I'll let you know what i think.