Souness must go ?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Add Grabbi to Cole,York and Todd and the financial loss incurred by Rovers for those players is massive..VERY worrying.

With the Cole fiasco Souness has just put his head on the guillotine block

in my opinion.

Edited July 15, 2004 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Manchester Blue]

Irrespective of how unrealistic or unreasonable Cole's behaviour has been, it is Souness' job to manage his players.

In that respect having to report to the Board on Tuesday that Cole is now unmanageable (by Souness) is a huge admission of defeat/inadequacy on Souness' part.

Can I ask what kind of job you do and if you ever have to manage staff. Some staff no matter what are just unmanageable. If one of your staff announced he would no longer work for you, what would be your response? Sit him down and point out the error of his ways maybe.

This is a man who has absolutely nothing to prove by the way so just how do you motivate him.

[USABlue]

To have Cole, Yorke and Todd all mouldering away is a criminal waste of the club's scarce resources.

Maybe, but there is one common factor for their being where they are, lack of discipline. It cracks me up, we complain about the modern footballer yet everytime one of these overpaid babies throws a tantrum you all seem to support them. Blaming the manager. If any of us ever refused to do something our Boss had asked us to do, regardless of what we thought, where would we be? Unemployed, a la Yorke, Cole and Todd. Difference being they get paid for being unemployed.

Todd played well yes, but on reflection can we really say Souness was wrong to dump him in favour of Amo, look at the results, I think its a resounding well done to Souness for that one.

I look forward to more of Souness' discipline, he has promised more, says he allowed things to become undisciplined last season and has promised not to allow that this season. I give him a big hand for that and if the Prima Donnas don't like it they can bog off and collect their easy money elsewhere.

Cole helped save us from relegation the season we bought him but in reality since then he's done squat except for the last handful of games at the end of last season. Come on Souey kick their butts, fall out with anyone who does not wish to be commited to the cause for Blackburn Rovers, then get shut.

Edited July 15, 2004 by USABlue

[Exiled in Toronto]

Todd played well yes, but on reflection can we really say Souness was wrong to dump him in favour of Amo, look at the results, I think its a resounding well done to Souness for that one.

No-one would disagree about him dropping Todd for his $1m purchase Amo, but did it really have to result in Todd leaving the club? Is that good management?

No-one would vote for player power. I'm just reading Tony Cascarino's book (great stuff BTW) and his description of player power at Chelsea under Porterfield is truely shocking. The manager must manage; but he needs to manage well.

Souness bought these players we're talking about and he has an accountability to get value from them for the benefit of BRFC.

Euro '04 was an eye-opener for me in terms of what a good manager can bring to the party. Look at how Big Phil got the best out of Figo in the semi when Souness for sure would have sent him packing; then his match-winning substitutions (bar the final). King Otto for Greece with his brilliant tactics.

And what do we have? None of the above. He p*ssed $17m away on Grabbi, Yorke and now Cole - players who he chose to buy - so he needs to either get better at picking them or at motivating them once they're here.

[jim mk2]

  Look at how Big Phil got the best out of Figo in the semi when Souness for sure would have sent him packing; then his match-winning substitutions (bar the final). King Otto for Greece with his brilliant tactics.

Souness would never have tolerated Figo in the first place. Figo is a big player with a big ego, the type of player who our manager likes to cut down to size by first humiliating them and then forcing them to leave.

If I were Paul Gallagher I would be looking round for another club already. Souness talked last season about him "having his big head on", so the young striker has obviously been earmarked for the Souness treatment.

[Eddie]

Or possibly Jim, Souey is helping to keep a talented young striker's feet on the ground so that he will fulfill his potential. Of course, this could be seen as a strange way of looking at it.

[Scotty]

Can I ask what kind of job you do and if you ever have to manage staff. Some staff no matter what are just unmanageable. If one of your staff announced he would no longer work for you, what would be your response? Sit him down and point out the error of his ways maybe.

This is a man who has absolutely nothing to prove by the way so just how do you motivate him.

I love the way you instantly assume Cole is the one in the wrong. Has it not occured to you that our manager might also be at fault here? Do you not see a pattern emerging?

Souness has now fallen out with Todd, Cole, Flitcroft, Dunn, Yorke, Gillespie and Sukur- all within the space of two years - and those are only the ones we've heard about. Can you think of another Premiership manager who's fallen out so publicly with that many of their players? No, me neither.

There's been some brillant posts on here spelling out why Souness's antics are causing us so much worry and yet you continue to defend the indefensible. Souness was brillant for the club during his first 3 years here. He's now become a liability. Get rid.

[percy]

Todd played well yes, but on reflection can we really say Souness was wrong to dump him in favour of Amo, look at the results, I think its a resounding well done to Souness for that one.

No-one would disagree about him dropping Todd for his $1m purchase Amo, but did it really have to result in Todd leaving the club? Is that good management?

I think it is good management to get rid of player who walked out on his team, manager and fans on the day of a game against close rivals in a relegation battle. What message would it send to players and fans if Todd hadn't been dealt with in such a direct and firm manner?

Regardless of who was right or wrong - you can't have a player abandon his club when everyone is needed to pull together to get the necessary results.

Souness' current actions at the club are under intense scrutiny at the moment and the departure of one of our better players under such alarming circumstances does not look good. Although it will be disappointing to see Cole leave, there is still time to try and find a replacement.

I don't think anyone involved with the club would accept such a depleted/inexperienced forward line of Dickov, Stead, Gally, Jansen and Yorke would see us involved in anything other than a repeat of last year's relegation battle, so I'm confident that we will try and add another striker to the squad once Cole's financial sitaution is resolved.

Whether or not Souness has the ability to find the right player within his allocated budget remains to be seen, but until then I won't be jumping to any conclusions. Remember how we doubted whether a young Jon Stead would be able to make an impact of the premiership after arriving from the 3rd divsion?

Although I agree with USABlue's sentiments regarding player discipline and the manager being able to demonstrate his authority over 'prima donna' players, it still seems that Souness could start an argument in an empty room. I thought the way he cleared the deadwood out of the club when he arrived was exactly what was required. Showing the exit door to the moaners helped focus the sqaud on achieving positive results. It seems Souness is trying to do the same again.

What's worrying this time around (you'd think he wouldn't be making the same mistakes again and again) is that some of the dissent from the players is fuelled by his stubborn and argumentative nature. Hopefully, once he's removed the current 'guilty' players from Ewood Park he can concentrate on re-building the team and improving on last year's disappointments. The fact that he can't seem to fix / work around these rifts, however, makes me think that as long as Souness is our manager, there will always be these type of problems at Blackburn Rovers.......

I just hope the ability of the players, choice of team line-ups / tactics, youth academy developments and input from the other coaches are enough to push the team in the right direction and bypass this worrying trend.

Edited July 15, 2004 by percy

[jim mk2]

[souness has now fallen out with Todd, Cole, Flitcroft, Dunn, Yorke, Gillespie and Sukur- all within the space of two years - and those are only the ones we've heard about. 

There was also a spat with Short when the veteran centre half dared to question tactics after yet another home defeat last season. Even Souness realises he cannot do without our best defender, however, and it came to nothing.

[Manchester Blue]

Can I ask what kind of job you do and if you ever have to manage staff.  Some staff no matter what are just unmanageable.  If one of your staff announced he would no longer work for you, what would be your response?  Sit him down and point out the error of his ways maybe.

This is a man who has absolutely nothing to prove by the way so just how do you motivate him.

I love the way you instantly assume Cole is the one in the wrong. Has it not occured to you that our manager might also be at fault here? Do you not see a pattern emerging?

Souness has now fallen out with Todd, Cole, Flitcroft, Dunn, Yorke, Gillespie and Sukur- all within the space of two years - and those are only the ones we've heard about. Can you think of another Premiership manager who's fallen out so publicly with that many of their players? No, me neither.

There's been some brillant posts on here spelling out why Souness's antics are causing us so much worry and yet you continue to defend the indefensible. Souness was brillant for the club during his first 3 years here. He's now become a liability. Get rid.

But that's the thing I'm not defending Souness as such just refusing to accept that sulky arsed has-beens on 50k a week should be treated any better than being shown the door. You say I instantly assume Cole's at fault but I can say the same with regards to you and Souness.

It was the same with Todd last season. A no better than mediocre defender who was taking us with him to 1st division. Souness gets his best players back and puts them in and Todd shows his arse. Who's at fault? Yorke well I like the guy but his attitude his hardly condusive to a relegation battle so a fall-out was inevitable.

As I've said on another thread unless you know what has happened with Flitcroft I don't see how you can comment. Dunn got too big for his boots, Gillespie was crap and as far as i'm aware there was no real problem with Sukur. There are others you've left off by the way.

Of course there is a pattern, Souness is an abrasive man who p1sses people off. He also gets results at least he did for 3 of the 4 years so far. You may feel now is the time to get rid, I feel he merits at least half a season with his first choice team. I couldn't give a fig if he upsets every money grabbing waster we have at the club if we win games. There is no problem with team spirit or dressing room atmosphere, you can either believe me or not.

[jim mk2]

[ as far as i'm aware there was no real problem with Sukur.

Souness packed him off to Turkey when he complained at being left out of the team. Weeks before, Souness had been lauding Sukur as "one of the best players he had ever worked with".

[Manchester Blue]

I love the way you instantly assume Cole is the one in the wrong.

Incidentally, please could you explain to me which part of Andy Cole refusing to play for Souness doesn't make it his fault. The only reason Cole hasn't been sacked is because in the wierd world of football you are allowed to withdraw your labour, be crap at your job, and commit all kinds of other acts that in any normal job would have you sacked. And even if the club do decide to get rid of you, you still get paid your contract in full.

[Manchester Blue]

[ as far as i'm aware there was no real problem with Sukur.

Souness packed him off to Turkey when he complained at being left out of the team. Weeks before, Souness had been lauding Sukur as "one of the best players he had ever worked with".

Suker was still there at the end of the season. Suker complained at being taken off against Man U when he was poor. I've still never seen any evidence of a fall-out. You know like quotes and stuff. But then again what does evidence matter in the glorious world of the gutter press.

[Scotty]

You say I instantly assume Cole's at fault but I can say the same with regards to you and Souness.

It was the same with Todd last season. A no better than mediocre defender who was taking us with him to 1st division. Souness gets his best players back and puts them in and Todd shows his arse. Who's at fault? Yorke well I like the guy but his attitude his hardly condusive to a relegation battle so a fall-out was inevitable.

As I've said on another thread unless you know what has happened with Flitcroft I don't see how you can comment. Dunn got too big for his boots, Gillespie was crap and as far as i'm aware there was no real problem with Sukur. There are others you've left off by the way.

Of course there is a pattern, Souness is an abrasive man who p1sses people off. He also gets results at least he did for 3 of the 4 years so far. You may feel now is the time to get rid, I feel he merits at least half a season with his first choice team. I couldn't give a fig if he upsets every money grabbing waster we have at the club if we win games. There is no problem with team spirit or dressing room atmosphere, you can either believe me or not.

I've never said it was all Souness's fault. I'm sure both parties are to blame. However, top managers command enough respect to prevent the players falling out with them in the first place. On the rare occasions that fall outs occur a top manager would ensure that the outcome is the best thing for the club. I don't believe that shipping out Cole, Flitcroft & Todd is the best thing for the club at the moment.

As for your comment about the team spirit - why are you making out that you know something the rest of us don't? You know no more than I do.

Even if the team spirit is fine, it's only a matter of time before another of our better players falls out with Souness, then another, then another. I could cope if we replacing like with like but it seems we're not.

[modes98]

I love the way you instantly assume Cole is the one in the wrong.

Incidentally, please could you explain to me which part of Andy Cole refusing to play for Souness doesn't make it his fault. The only reason Cole hasn't been sacked is because in the wierd world of football you are allowed to withdraw your labour, be crap at your job, and commit all kinds of other acts that in any normal job would have you sacked. And even if the club do decide to get rid of you, you still get paid your contract in full.

I would assume you could sack a player if they broke the terms of the contract ie. Refuse to play or get 3 formal warnings. However i would think in most cases you could get a transfer fee so why sack them.

Scotty: Can't say that i agree with cole leaving but if he is damaging the team on the whole he best leave, he has shown a poor attitude when faced with a position that should motivate a top player ie. competition for places. Yorke has to go now because of his poor attitude to premiership football. Todd did ok but we did better with amo and refusing to go to the bench surely has to be the end of any footballers time at a club! Flitcroft i'm really not to sure what to say. He probally isn't good enough to claim a first team spot, he is also getting on a bit like tugay and maybe leaving will help us develop key younsters.

All the players have fallen out with soui because they have a poor attitude towards competition for places. If we don't have competition we don't do well, if we get rid of these players who want a spot without trying too hard we can attract a motivated type of player who wants to do well. With the masses of money we would get back from not paying wages we might be able to fund a big name or 2!

[FourLaneBlue]

Incidentally, please could you explain to me which part of Andy Cole refusing to play for Souness doesn't make it his fault.

Manchester Blue - sorry but can you provide any reference as to that statement. I've not yet heard that Cole has refused to play for anyone never mind Rovers. If we are to believe what has been published then the decision (in conjunction with Souness) was taken by the board for Andy Cole not to play again Rovers and not by Andy Cole himself.

As far as I'm aware Andy "call me Andrew" Cole has not (nor has he ever done) handed in a transfer request or said he cannot work with Souness.

[American]

There was also a spat with Short when the veteran centre half dared to question tactics after yet another home defeat last season. Even Souness realises he cannot do without our best defender, however, and it came to nothing.

Either that or Short was man enough to be able to get past a disagreement and still work with him. If I left every job where I didn't get along with someone higher up in the food chain, I'd probably be on my 40th job this decade. You have to learn to work with people you don't get along with, that simple. I really thought Cole was going to work through this, quite disappointed he didn't and gave up. There are tons of examples from professional sports where players didn't get along with their manager and still worked together for the good of the team.

[dave birch]

Can someone find out if there is a manager in the prem at the moment that hasn't had a spat with a player under his control.

My feeling at the moment is, that Souness did enough at the back end of last season to deserve to be given a chance at the start of the coming season. We can all carry on about the players he's brought in, but the actual proof will be in the first 6 to 10 games.

If it all goes belly up in that time, then surely the board must insist that Souness fall on his sword.

edit: Conversely, if we get away to a flyer, then he'll be the best thing since beer was invented.....

Edited July 16, 2004 by dave birch

[RevidgeBlue]

Manchester Blue - sorry but can you provide any reference as to that statement. I've not yet heard that Cole has refused to play for anyone never mind Rovers. If we are to believe what has been published then the decision (in conjunction with Souness) was taken by the board for Andy Cole not to play again Rovers and not by Andy Cole himself.

As far as I'm aware Andy "call me Andrew" Cole has not (nor has he ever done) handed in a transfer request or said he cannot work with Souness.

Exactly right.

I'm often criticised (when the glove fits) for reading too much into newspaper articles.

Sorry, but in the absence of direct quotations from either party I treat with extreme scepticism this particular piece in the LET from Andy Neild claiming that he believed following a meeting on Monday, Cole refused to play for Souness. I don't believe Cole is that unprofessional and even if he was his agent would advise him against that course of action.

IF he was of that mindset etc have we only found this out just now? This is after all the same player who was DIRECTLY QUOTED earlier in the summer as saying he wanted to stay at Ewood.

Seems to me the relationship between Souness and Cole has not been the best and they may be equally at fault in that. The Club also face paying him a hefty loyalty bonus at the end of the season. In all those circumstances who is the most likely to want Cole to leave?

If Cole leaves and we can get a better replacement, fine. If as seems the case we've replaced him with Dickov we'll most likely save about £1.5m in wages over the season and lose £20m by being relegated.

[Tris]

Souness has now fallen out with Todd, Cole, Flitcroft, Dunn, Yorke, Gillespie and Sukur- all within the space of two years - and those are only the ones we've heard about.  Can you think of another Premiership manager who's fallen out so publicly with that many of their players?  No, me neither.

Todd - withdrew his labour minutes before a vital match. Didn't see many people defend him at the time. Can't think that his playing colleagues were impressed. Do you think Fergy or Wenger would have put a soothing arm round his shoulders and said "sorry Andy, please come back next week."

Souness gave him his last chance in football after Todd's self-imposed disasters at Bolton and Charlton where the same lack of self control led to fights on the training ground. Souness even gave him another very last chance in football when injuries meant he needed to be recalled from a loan at Burnley.

Souness owes Todd nothing, Rovers owe him nothing, and a player who can let his team down in such spectacular style off the field will never be welcomed back on it. Hence the fact no-one else wants him.

Cole - I'm tempted to leave this for now, but can’t. There is a lot of comment on here which is not rational. The initial dispute stems from Cole refusing to join in with the "team building" trip last season.

The same Cole who was granted permission to go to Dubai with his family earlier in the season (post Southampton red card). The same Cole who refused to speak with Stead for two weeks after he was signed. The same Cole who told the LET he wasn't interested in helping the promising young forwards, he was just interested in his own game. The same Cole who – whatever plus points people can find about his game, and he was a good player – is just not worth the money he’s reported to be on.

His record as a striker at Blackburn Rovers is certainly not worthy of the outpouring of grief which is afflicting this messageboard. Some people have even brought the loss of a few hundred season ticket renewals into this debate. For gods sake, if Cole buggers off and £55,000 per week was correct (btw I think it’s distorted because Andy Neild has included the severance payment in that figure) … that’s the entire income from over 8,000 ADULT season tickets. Do some maths – as we offer the best kids and young adult prices in the league we therefore have loads of younger (lower revenue) ST holders. I would estimate that every single pound from every single adult ST holder at Ewood just about covers Cole’s wages. Is he really worth it ??????

Flitcroft – This story will come out in its own time, people can make their own judgements when it does. It’s not rocket science.

Dunn – A £5 million quid sale. And the manager who paid it has just recruited Muzzy Izzett to play in Dunny’s preferred CM position, a Chelsea reject for his second choice position out wide, and re-signed Savage on a 4 year deal for the position Souness tried to teach him but Dunny didn’t want to learn about. Why is this name even in your list of players Souness has fallen out with ????

Yorke and Gillespie – OK I understand now. These two and Dunn should be moved to the list you didn’t mention – the Curtis and McAteer Hall of Fame. The players who weren’t good enough. Mistakes. Grabbis. Oh look, every other club has them too. Veron. Taibi. Viaina. El Hadj D??(sp) and his mate at Liverpool, Cisse at Birmingham, Postiga and Rebrov at Spurs (worth 2 Grabbis, 3 after wages), there are so many more dotted around the English leagues.

The core of the squad at Rovers is full of players who have no axe to grind with Souness, in fact many of them are only here because they want to work with him in preference to alternatives.

One bad egg (Cole) and another (Yorke) and another (Todd) should not overshadow the rest of the squad, or the many players who have worked under Souness and moved on with no bitter words.

And remember the three Rovers who’ve signed new deals this summer – Tugay, Short and Douglas. All three want to work with Souness.

And the three who are new – Matteo (cited working with Souness as the factor for choosing Blackburn), Dickov (cited Souness as the factor for choosing Blackburn) and De Pedro (no idea what he cited, but we beat a load of clubs to get him).

Cole is not Blackburn Rovers. He is no longer a good striker. He does not deserve the money he apparently earns. He does not deserve the adulation he gets from the terraces at Ewood. He has openly admitted he wants no part in helping to develop youngsters be they first team material or academy hopefuls. He has no place at Ewood Park.

[thenodrog]

Can you think of another Premiership manager who's fallen out so publicly with that many of their players?

Rat faced whinger I'd wager?

Which reminds me apparently Nicky Butt is the latest to fall victim to Fergies axe

[thenodrog]

One bad egg (Cole) and another (Yorke)

That reminds me........... Where's Big Ron when he's needed for a valid opinion?

[pg]

Tris - that post was miraculous.

Even I'm feeling optimistic about the new season after reading that....

..but I'm sure it won't last for too long

[philipl]

Tris, agreed- great post with a huge amount of reality and exactly the way Souness, the Board and all Rovers' fans need and want to see the state of things at Ewood/Brockhall.

The problem Souness will have if the Rovers have a second successive disappointing season is that a very different perspective will be used to judge the situation, especially if we have messrs Todd and Yorke still on the wage list.

Manchester Blue asked a very valid question- yes I have had similar situations in my working life. Unless there is prima facie evidence that the employee is correct or the manager can be persuaded to change his/her opinion or way of presenting it, the board has no option but to back the manager. To do otherwise is to undermine the manager in the job the manager is employed to do- to use their own intelligence/experience/discretion and manage.

However, a board never forgets being forced into such a situation and rarely forgives.

[Manchester Blue]

Fair point that Philipl can't really argue with that, it's something Souness must deal with obviously.

As for the Cole comments, no you're right FLB & Rev, there are no direct quotes, but then that's hardly likely seeing as it would provide evidence for a disciplinary. I probably put a bit more trust in the story as it's in the LET but maybe i'm wrong for that.