[Archived] Hooligans Yet Again

[roversWASmylife]

My step brother has gone to the championships, just been chatting to him on the phone and he said from what he saw last night was that a minority of the English fans who went on the rampage.

But he said that there are some foreign fans that are aware of the bad reputation of the English fans and from his opinion said that there were many other nationalities of football fans at the time that were encouraging the English to fight with police.

It isn’t helped by the media at all, however the people of our country should no better, but some don’t.

I can’t understand the temptation of some fans to cause mayhem and mess of a place, why?

Waste of time and energy. I’ve always thought that when you are in somebody else’s country you respect their traditions and get on with the local people.

Will something similar happen again? Very probably.

[Ninjathunder]

the media are just as big a culprit as the idiots who are causing trouble IMO

they sensationalise

they create media nonsense

they under report the TRUE facts

they never give any credit to English fans

and finally

they NEVER report on the other idiotic followers of other countries who cause mayhem

Agreed. ITV's news this evening thought that the trouble was worthy as being the lead story, with sensationalist reporting about 'England fans' going on the rampage. But the footage shown was distinctly iffy and showed no evidence whatsoever to support ITV's claims that this was a football related incident.

[Rover_Shaun]

It is no surprise to me as true journalism is dead and had been for years.

[LDRover]

Mates are in albufeira on stag party (not allowed to go even though I'm best man!!) and one txted earlier to tell me the ruck started between 2 england fans arguing amongst themselves. Escalated pretty quickly and ended with portuguese police wading in.

Said it was 'premier league bother' and was pretty scary and he's no shrinking violet himself.

[colin]

Harrogate Croydon, Cheshunt, Boston, Birmingham, Watford, Stevenage, Wakefield and Bromley.

Lose a game of football and smash up your town.

Looks like the Dingles are breeding and spreading

Scarey

Remember 17th December 2000?

[Ste B]

the media are just as big a culprit as the idiots who are causing trouble IMO

they sensationalise

they create media nonsense

they under report the TRUE facts

they never give any credit to English fans

and finally

they NEVER report on the other idiotic followers of other countries who cause mayhem

Article in one of the papers today (express?) mentioned that 50 french fans were offered money by a (foreign) film crew to start some bother with the english fans. Fortunately they declined and warned the english fans.

Some members of the media are desperate for some good old english rioting. Unfortunately our reputation in the past puts it right in the spotlight.

[Tris]

Gav and I have regularly posted here about what actually happened in Charleroi four years ago. The pictures of those water cannon have been dredged up again as "archive" footage for news items being broadcast at the moment.

I'll repeat for the umpteenth time what we know about that footage because we were there and we were gutted when we saw what was portrayed.

1) Early in the morning on the day of the match, shop and cafe owners around that square in Charleroi took money from camera crews and photographers to get balcony space. Look at the angle from where the most used footage is shot - do you think they had climbed a tree ? Or just happened to be on a 1st or 2nd floor balcony. Money changed hands, and the best positions appeared to have been auctioned off to the highest bidding camera crew.

2) As the water cannon came to life, about 400 yards down the road on another square, we were in a crowd of maybe 4 or 5 thousand England and Germany fans, all drinking together, enjoying the sunshine, a couple of impromptu football games were going on. There was not a camera in sight, not a reporter to be seen.

Those water cannon pics were jumped on by UEFA and by politicians back home - the first ever threat of expulsion followed the day after. And only as a result of scenes that had been almost fabricated by greedy TV news crews. That was the day which totally changed my view on the trustworthiness of TV news and confirmed my views about the gutter press and the way we are fed what someone else wants us to see.

[Paul]

It's reported on Five Live as 12 people DETAINED rather than arrested.

Maybe I'm being thick here, Paul. Please would you explain the difference?

I can't I'm afraid but the BBC were emphasising that under Portugese law the people concerned had been detained and NOT arrested. If the BBC are making the point repeatedly I felt it was making here.

I imagine it could be similar to the UK when one can be "helping police with their enquiries" rather than under arrest? We need help from our Portugese friends on this one.

[Paul]

Yahoo - England fans Battle Portugese Police

BBC - 20 held after fresh clashes

Last night

[Rachrover]

They were saying on the news that if they carry on, then england might be kicked out of the competition!! There always has to be some idiots who spoil it for everyone else

[SouthAussieRover]

England will be more or less on their way home if they fail to beat Switzerland tomorrow.

However if they win then the authorities may get twitchier especially if trouble carries on.

Sad that a mindless minority who cant handle their liquor continue to run the risk of spoiling it for the well behaved majority.

[stuwilky]

They were saying on the news that if they carry on, then england might be kicked out of the competition!!  There always has to be some idiots who spoil it for everyone else 

The news keep reporting that, despite Lennart Johannsen saying last week that England will not be kicked out because of the behavious of their fans.

Once again a case of sensationalism.

Edited June 16, 2004 by stuwilky

[Oklahoma]

I only saw the news today.

Can't really tell what happened. But this night was worse.

I've been to that place many times during summer and it's always full with english people and nothing bad happens.

This time, the fans are probably more dangerous but the police is being too strict.

There have been loads of fans drinking everywhere and so far nothing more was reported.

Detained is for questioning... if if there is any reason for it, that person is arrested and possibly deported.

[Gav]

The actions of a few are indefensible so I’m not going to even try to put a case for their defense.

I like many others feel that the gutter press and TV hype is nothing short of disgusting. How ITV and BBC can lead for the past two days on first of all 4 Englishman being arrested then some dodgy amateur camera footage of Portuguese police battering anyone is site is beyond me.

Having been in the very situations seen over the past two days I can tell you that on many occasions the police just arrest individuals to show strength. This tactic is affective and doesn't really tell the whole story in terms of numbers arrested. Look at the 900 or so English fans deported from Holland and Belgium? Women and a 70yr old man also?

It’s clear to many that this situation in albuferia is going to continue until the English leave the resort of the local police close down the 'Strip'. As tension remain high after the heavy handed tactics a few nights its just going to play right in to the hands of the ring leaders and expect more trouble and arrests in the coming days.

As for UEFA well those crocked b******s are just looking for an excuse. German and Holland fans clashed on Monday and last night but not even a mention of expulsion.

One rule for the English and one rule for the rest.

In summing up we don't get praised for having 50,000 supporters in Portugal with 99% being well behaved. We get hammered for having around 200 people from various countries fighting with police in a tourist resort miles from the football stadiums where England are playing.

[Oklahoma]

Actually, english fans were praised after the game against France.

In that day, there was only a small incident with some french supporters ( don't know who's to blame on that day).

I just came from Porto and the atmosphere was great there. Didn't notice anything!!

But even if something happened, maybe the difference is that dutch and german don't react as a whole.

If someone messes up, it's is fault and you shouldn't defend him just because he is from your country.

I think english people do that a lot

*runs and hides before people react*

[Gav]

Absolute Rubbish.

The Dutch especially have a terrible problem with hooliganism at club level so are you telling me they don't follow the national side and don't get involved?

The Germans like the English have improved domestically but to say those nations don't get involved is just rubbish i'm afraid.

If the English acted as a whole it would like D-Day because of the numbers.

[Tom Pringle]

The thing that suprises me, is when they annouce '30 arrests' and then '15 of them English' - Who's the other 15 then!?

[Oklahoma]

Italian also have a big problem with hooliganism at club level and they didn't create any problem.

I'm just talking of what i've seen here

[thenodrog]

In summing up we don't get praised for having 50,000 supporters in Portugal with 99% being well behaved. We get hammered for having around 200 people from various countries fighting with police in a tourist resort miles from the football stadiums where England are playing.

 

Not sure about the numbers but I take your point Gav. Only problem is now that you have identified them how to deal......sorry 'dispose' of those 200 scum. Terrorist act? Plane crash? Any suggestions Gav cos they certainly wouldn't be missed.

One of the major problems is the lack of punishment. The Portugese or whoever simply deport them whilst we meekly accept them back into the country with apparently nothing more than a dissaproving look. Presumably the cost of keeping them in detention / prosecuting them is too prohibitive, so every nation takes the 'Pontious' route of washing their hands of the problem and simply awarding the dick heads bragging rights for the next few years. Call me old fashioned but the punishment really needs to be made to fit the crime, and that includes any similar acts whether its at the football or simply on an 18-30's trailer trash lash up.

Furthermore if the Dutch/ Germans / Italians have problems then maybe the authority should come from Brussels. No wait what am I saying? That lot couldn't come up with a solution if they were given 50 years of debate.

Edited June 16, 2004 by thenodrog

[Manchester Blue]

Was talking about this last night. If anything France, Holland, Italy and probably Germany all have a bigger problem than us with domestic trouble. However for some reason they don't tend to take it abroad. Be it in the European domestic comps are Internationals.

The drink thing isn't the issue as the Germans and the Dutch certainly like their beer as much as we do. Therefore it's a tricky one really and i'm not sure of the answer. Not all the Germans/French etc are angels just like all the English aren't all thugs. However we do have a large number of what can only be described as morons.

They aren't hooligans as they are nothing to do with the football just idiots really. They tend to be the same kind of people that you will see if you watched Greece Uncovered or the like on Sky. Other country's don't seem to have the same culture as us the most similar one I can think of is the Americans.

It's a shame really as there are loads of genuine fans out there enjoying themselves no end and don't deserve to be tarred like these idiots. It doesn't help all the sensational journalism that is going on. However just ignoring/excusing it doens't help either. Watching a group of lads throwing bottle & chairs and kicking doors and windows in can't really be viewed in any other light can it. Or am i missing something?

[Morph]

It does seem strange that all the violence has been localised to Albufeira though. One report I saw said this was down to differences in the style of policing in the Algarve to the rest of Portugal - basically that whereas elsewhere the police have been taking a softly softly approach, using spotters with digi-cams to identify ringleaders and nicking them before trouble really starts, in the Algarve (whose police are well used to invading hordes of Englishmen) they simply steam in on horseback and start cracking heads, then work out who was innocent and who was guilty at a later date. Looks like one approach is working and the other one isn't.

[Blackburn Ender]

No, you're not.

Blaming the media is rubbish.

It's not the media's fault hundreds of lads get drunk and start fighting at 1am two nights running.

Sure they can sensationalise it, pay to get a good view, but they don't start the trouble, don't taunt the locals or police and don't develop into a glass and chair throwing mob at the drop of a hat.

The reason trouble (however small & localised) is at the top of the news agenda is for two reasons:

1. We've seen this happen before and it has always escalated until there's at least one day of serious hooliganism before the tournament is over.

2. The threat of expulsion is probably a real one and would be the major story of the tournament. If I was at the BBC, The Sun or the Guardian, I'd want to be on hand to report on it.

One way to avoid this is for people to take individual responsibility for their actions and to stay away from trouble.

But that's a little harder than using the media or police as a scapegoat, isn't it?

[FourLaneBlue]

The threat of expulsion is not a real one, Uefa chief Lennart Johansson has himself come out and said so. Apparently some minor official at Uefa got above his station and has been told his place.

Why expel the England team when Uefa have been selling their fans tickets on their website which does not use the checks that the travel club of the FA does?

Also- surely chucking out the team representing an entire nation because of a couple of hundred drunk idiots on holiday is tantamount to racism or is at least extremely prejudiced regarding a nation of 50 million people? It certainly suggests that all English people are like that if you follow that dubious line of reasoning.

[Morph]

I don't think questioning the effectiveness or otherwise of one policing tactic against another equates to blaming the police for hooliganism. Nor does mentioning the fact that the media are drooling at the prospect of English (and from what we have seen, only English) fans rioting, equate to absolving these drunken idiots from blame, although if unscrupulous members of the media are willing to pay other fans to start trouble with the English so they can report on the terrible spectre of "English hooliganism" (as has been alleged), then they (the media) would, in that instance, be very much at fault - I assume incitement to riot is a criminal offence in Portugal?

Having just re-read this thread from start to finish, I can't find anyone saying that the media or the Portuguese police are responsible for the violence. Most are simply bemoaning the fact that, due to the weight of history, English fans are judged by a separate standard to others, especially in the eyes of the police and press. None of this excuses the disorderly behavior of the English fans in Albufeira, but if we are going to judge the behavior of our fans in Portugal, it should be measured against the conduct of every fan out there. Those that create disorder should be dealt with regardless of nationality, and such events should be reported on without national bias towards or against any one particular group.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Morph

[Rover_Shaun]

No, you're not.

Blaming the media is rubbish.

It's not the media's fault hundreds of lads get drunk and start fighting at 1am two nights running.

Sure they can sensationalise it, pay to get a good view, but they don't start the trouble, don't taunt the locals or police and don't develop into a glass and chair throwing mob at the drop of a hat.

The reason trouble (however small & localised) is at the top of the news agenda is for two reasons:

1. We've seen this happen before and it has always escalated until there's at least one day of serious hooliganism before the tournament is over.

2. The threat of expulsion is probably a real one and would be the major story of the tournament. If I was at the BBC, The Sun or the Guardian, I'd want to be on hand to report on it.

One way to avoid this is for people to take individual responsibility for their actions and to stay away from trouble.

But that's a little harder than using the media or police as a scapegoat, isn't it?

Come out of your cocoon into the real world