[Archived] England 1 - 2 France

[USABlue]

Just got back from the Mountains, watched the game on video I was absolutley stunned still shell shocked.  Why is Heskey allowed anywhere near an England shirt? 

  What was he thinking, Carragher back pass terrible, but that's us for you.

Carragher backpass? Were you watching the right game?

Oops Gerrard, I mix them two up a lot.

[The Blunderer]

Sorry if it's been said earlier on in the thread, but Barthez claimed to have done his homework, knowing where Beckham takes (or used to before signing for Real) Penalties. Having played in the same team as the penalty taker would have helped. Maybe for that game, another penalty taker could have been nominated, perhaps someone who had taken a couple last season.

James interviewed today said he also did his homework watching French free kicks and penalties, but the video he studied had none by Zidane!!!!! To make matters worse he said the source of this crucial off pitch training material, on which the national team depended was a 'mate'.

With hindsight, maybe the 'Bend it like Platini' video from Woolworths with a quarter of pick'n'mix wasn't the best pre-match preparation.

[Flopsy]

or better just give all the football to BBC

I have a question for the Stato's when was the last time England won a game shown exclusively on ITV I cant remember any

As i asked earlier in the thread...

Was it against Germany in Euro 2000?

nope on the beeb, ITV showed the portugal and Romania game

[Tom Pringle]

or better just give all the football to BBC

I have a question for the Stato's when was the last time England won a game shown exclusively on ITV I cant remember any

As i asked earlier in the thread...

Was it against Germany in Euro 2000?

nope on the beeb, ITV showed the portugal and Romania game

Columbia in France 98?

[Nuclearsox]

Nuclearsox's Euro 2004 Commentator watch: John Motson

How many times, in a game between Germany and Holland, did Motty "draw certain parallels" with England v France?! It was almost as many times as he started a sentence with "Well.."

"Well we all know a 1-0 lead isn't impregnable. Ha! Just ask England."

"Well Holland come from behind to equalise - shades of France against England"

"Well, that's a huge clearance. Quite similar to one Ashley Cole made on Sunday"

"Well Germany are going to make a substitution - England did that!"

Some of those quotes might not be completely accurate but he must have referred to England v France about 20 times in the second half alone.

Shut up Motty! It hurts!

[Flopsy]

or better just give all the football to BBC

I have a question for the Stato's when was the last time England won a game shown exclusively on ITV I cant remember any

As i asked earlier in the thread...

Was it against Germany in Euro 2000?

nope on the beeb, ITV showed the portugal and Romania game

Columbia in France 98?

BBC,

ITV had the Roumania game in that tournament as well and the Argentina game I think.

Japan 2002 - ITV had exclusive rights to Sweden and the other team, Beeb had the Argentina game, which games did we win then?

[Tom Pringle]

Flopsy, your spelling is effing terrible

[Flopsy]

it is, ive got a new keyboard still getting used to it

[Nayef]

May have been mentioned already but when Zidane placed the ball for the free kick, Beckham allegedly told Ashley Cole to cover the far post. Ashley Cole left the wall to go there but James then told him to return to the wall.

Liability?

[Tom Pringle]

May have been mentioned already but when Zidane placed the ball for the free kick, Beckham allegedly told Ashley Cole to cover the far post. Ashley Cole left the wall to go there but James then told him to return to the wall.

Liability?

Listen to your captain? Or a cross flapping keeper?

[Nayef]

Exactly.

A choice between listening to your inspirational skipper

or David James...

Ah well, stranger things have happened in tournies. Czech lost their opening game in euro 96 and look where they ended up. Italy did too in world cup 94. Ok they didn't have david james in goal but at least there's some inspiration there for the lads.

[Tom Pringle]

Didn't Alan Hansen say last night during the Holland - Germany game, 'you have to wonder how far england can go in any tournament with that goalkeeper'

Ashley, don't listen to your inspirational captain who actually plays with the free-kick taker week in week out. No, instead listen to the man thats played first division football for a good few months and never been classed as a top keeper.

[DaveyB]

I know the result indicates that he should have listened to Beckham rather James, but in reality you should always listen to your goalkeeper. It is imperative that your keeper gets a good view of the ball when it's kicked and is happy with the way the wall and everyone else is lined up properly. (As Schmeichal pointed out for the German goal on the Beeb last night.)

It is highly unfair therefore to blame Ashley Cole. With hindsight it is easy to see that James made a mistake by telling him not to cover the far post, but Cole did the right thing by doing as his keeper told him.

[Tom Pringle]

I know the result indicates that he should have listened to Beckham rather James, but in reality you should always listen to your goalkeeper. It is imperative that your keeper gets a good view of the ball when it's kicked and is happy with the way the wall and everyone else is lined up properly. (As Schmeichal pointed out for the German goal on the Beeb last night.)

It is highly unfair therefore to blame Ashley Cole. With hindsight it is easy to see that James made a mistake by telling him not to cover the far post, but Cole did the right thing by doing as his keeper told him.

How would Ashley Cole being on the post block David James view?

[vinny]

Any keeper going the right way, would have saved that penalty. Still think England deserved the win because the french were feeding on scraps all night.

No doubting though, that on pure footballing ability, the french are streets ahead.

We will struggle to qualify now.

There is no way england deserved to win the match. Fair enough france were feeding of scraps but england didnt even have that. they were afraid to play football. every one is going on about how good campbell and king were, the only reason they looked so good was because gerarrd sat infront of them all night.

[Kennys Magic Hat]

Who were the second and third best players in the Premiership this season then as voted by their fellow professionals? I think you'll find it was Lampard and Gerrard. Don't make statements that the facts simply don't back up.

I didn't think I was making statements, but was expressing an opinion. There is, in my opinion, a difference in being the second or third best player in the PL and being a threat. I'm not trying to criticize England but to make observations - Henry, Viera, Pires - name the English equivalents? By which I mean players who worry you when they have the ball against your team.

The point I'm trying to make is England do not have threatening, creative players and that much of the creativity in the PL comes from foreign players. When Rovers play the major PL clubs it's the foreign players who are most likey to create the threat or set the pulse racing. If we're playing Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, there are few English players who create the threat/buzz.

You can be a very good footballer but still not a threatening, creative player.

So what in your opinion constitutes 'creativity' or a 'threat' then Paul?

LAMPARD carries a huge goalscoring THREAT - as he showed for Chelsea and against France. Seeing as he's also able to pick out a pass and CREATE goals, then surely he's also creative.

GERRARD is even better at picking out a pass than Lampard, as he's shown with several pinpoint passes for Owen this season, does that not make him creative? You say you wouldn't be scared if Gerrard had the ball, well I for one would be fin worried if he got the ball and was running at a defence.

BECKHAM surely carries a THREAT at dead-ball situations and can CREATE goals out of nothing with his superb passing and vision.

SCHOLES is probably Englands most CREATIVE player with his little passes to get attacking moves going, his superb passing ability and huge goal THREAT with his runs into the box.

You also noted that OWEN and ROONEY carry a significant threat so well done.

Your opinion that the best, most creative and threatening players in the Premiership are foreigners is simply a view that you've formed in your own mind to explain why England lost the other night. But the facts simply don't back that opinion up!

You're right that Henry and Pires are Arsenal's most dangerous players but Vieira? How many goals and assists does he get in a season? Hardly any is the answer. He's not an attacking or creative threat.

Who is Chelsea's most creative and threatening player? Crespo, Gronkjaer? I don't think so, its Frank Lampard all the way. Maybe it's Duff but he's a product of and English youth academy, not a foreigner.

Who is Manchester United's most creative and threatening player? I'd say its probably Scholes, and if not him then Giggs. Before that it was Beckham. All players I would not deem to be foreigners. You'd probably say Van Nistelrooy but he's only effective in and around the six yard box and not a creative threat in the ilk of Henry lets say.

Who is Liverpool's most creative and threatening player? You cannot argue that it's not either Owen or Gerrard. English born and bred?

Who is Newcastle's most creative and threatening player? Someone mentioned, maybe you, that Shearer worried you every time he got the ball so its got to be him. If not Shearer then maybe Bellamy or Dyer, its certainly not Laurent Robert.

So there's the top 5 clubs in England and apart from Arsenal, all their best attacking and creative threats are either English in most cases or from one one of the home nations. So basically your argument doesn't weigh up.

You don't just have to be able to run at players and have some skill to be considered a threat or a creative player, different players carry different threats from different situations and create things in different ways.

Please reply and tell all the lovely people that you're wrong...

[AndyC]

I know the result indicates that he should have listened to Beckham rather James, but in reality you should always listen to your goalkeeper. It is imperative that your keeper gets a good view of the ball when it's kicked and is happy with the way the wall and everyone else is lined up properly. (As Schmeichal pointed out for the German goal on the Beeb last night.)

It is highly unfair therefore to blame Ashley Cole. With hindsight it is easy to see that James made a mistake by telling him not to cover the far post, but Cole did the right thing by doing as his keeper told him.

How would Ashley Cole being on the post block David James view?

you know as well as i do tom, that you only listen to your keeper when he's setting up his wall.

fact.

if he had left the wall, zidane would probably have curled it the other way, then you would still be making james a scapegoat.

david james was excellent against france - he comanded his area very well and came out for lots of crosses - which he caught - every last one of them.

inspirational skipper? he's been anything but for about 4 months now.

he looked more bothered that he couldnt play in the centre. He's probably not happy at having all the limelight taken away from him by gerrard and lampard. hence he tried to knock 60 yard balls all the time instead of his usually very high work ethic.

[AndyC]

Who were the second and third best players in the Premiership this season then as voted by their fellow professionals? I think you'll find it was Lampard and Gerrard. Don't make statements that the facts simply don't back up.

I didn't think I was making statements, but was expressing an opinion. There is, in my opinion, a difference in being the second or third best player in the PL and being a threat. I'm not trying to criticize England but to make observations - Henry, Viera, Pires - name the English equivalents? By which I mean players who worry you when they have the ball against your team.

The point I'm trying to make is England do not have threatening, creative players and that much of the creativity in the PL comes from foreign players. When Rovers play the major PL clubs it's the foreign players who are most likey to create the threat or set the pulse racing. If we're playing Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, there are few English players who create the threat/buzz.

You can be a very good footballer but still not a threatening, creative player.

So what in your opinion constitutes 'creativity' or a 'threat' then Paul?

LAMPARD carries a huge goalscoring THREAT - as he showed for Chelsea and against France. Seeing as he's also able to pick out a pass and CREATE goals, then surely he's also creative.

GERRARD is even better at picking out a pass than Lampard, as he's shown with several pinpoint passes for Owen this season, does that not make him creative? You say you wouldn't be scared if Gerrard had the ball, well I for one would be fin worried if he got the ball and was running at a defence.

BECKHAM surely carries a THREAT at dead-ball situations and can CREATE goals out of nothing with his superb passing and vision.

SCHOLES is probably Englands most CREATIVE player with his little passes to get attacking moves going, his superb passing ability and huge goal THREAT with his runs into the box.

You also noted that OWEN and ROONEY carry a significant threat so well done.

Your opinion that the best, most creative and threatening players in the Premiership are foreigners is simply a view that you've formed in your own mind to explain why England lost the other night. But the facts simply don't back that opinion up!

You're right that Henry and Pires are Arsenal's most dangerous players but Vieira? How many goals and assists does he get in a season? Hardly any is the answer. He's not an attacking or creative threat.

Who is Chelsea's most creative and threatening player? Crespo, Gronkjaer? I don't think so, its Frank Lampard all the way. Maybe it's Duff but he's a product of and English youth academy, not a foreigner.

Who is Manchester United's most creative and threatening player? I'd say its probably Scholes, and if not him then Giggs. Before that it was Beckham. All players I would not deem to be foreigners. You'd probably say Van Nistelrooy but he's only effective in and around the six yard box and not a creative threat in the ilk of Henry lets say.

Who is Liverpool's most creative and threatening player? You cannot argue that it's not either Owen or Gerrard. English born and bred?

Who is Newcastle's most creative and threatening player? Someone mentioned, maybe you, that Shearer worried you every time he got the ball so its got to be him. If not Shearer then maybe Bellamy or Dyer, its certainly not Laurent Robert.

So there's the top 5 clubs in England and apart from Arsenal, all their best attacking and creative threats are either English in most cases or from one one of the home nations. So basically your argument doesn't weigh up.

You don't just have to be able to run at players and have some skill to be considered a threat or a creative player, different players carry different threats from different situations and create things in different ways.

Please reply and tell all the lovely people that you're wrong...

i think we are really talking about the difference between having the ability to dribble and take players on, as opposed to also being able to deliver the killer pass?

our players tending to be more workmanlike than really having the spark of genius.

our midfielders do carry a threat, but at international level, its a lot harder -hence the reason why we haven't won anything for 30 years.

lampard, gerrard can all thread a pass, but then name me a quality midfielder that can't.

On the flipside, zidane, pires etc are players that can dribble past 2 or 3 players and then deliver a killer ball - only rooney in the present starting 11 can do that.

the days of english players being able to excite are few and far between. we have become accustomed to a different style of play.

hence why joe cole is often lauded as being a player that could come on and 'turn the game on its head'

why? because he can dribble and leave his man for dead hence creating an overlap.

Edited June 16, 2004 by AndyC

[Tom Pringle]

I know the result indicates that he should have listened to Beckham rather James, but in reality you should always listen to your goalkeeper. It is imperative that your keeper gets a good view of the ball when it's kicked and is happy with the way the wall and everyone else is lined up properly. (As Schmeichal pointed out for the German goal on the Beeb last night.)

It is highly unfair therefore to blame Ashley Cole. With hindsight it is easy to see that James made a mistake by telling him not to cover the far post, but Cole did the right thing by doing as his keeper told him.

How would Ashley Cole being on the post block David James view?

you know as well as i do tom, that you only listen to your keeper when he's setting up his wall.

fact.

if he had left the wall, zidane would probably have curled it the other way, then you would still be making james a scapegoat.

david james was excellent against france - he comanded his area very well and came out for lots of crosses - which he caught - every last one of them.

inspirational skipper? he's been anything but for about 4 months now.

he looked more bothered that he couldnt play in the centre. He's probably not happy at having all the limelight taken away from him by gerrard and lampard. hence he tried to knock 60 yard balls all the time instead of his usually very high work ethic.

Woah woah woah, lets get one thing straight.

I'm not looking for a scapegoat here at all.

I'm talking about stopping one of the best free-kick takers in the world from scoring by doing something so simple as to put someone on the post.

[Morph]

SCHOLES is probably Englands most CREATIVE player with his little passes to get attacking moves going, his superb passing ability and huge goal THREAT with his runs into the box.

He's so threatening he hasn't scored a goal at international level in well over two years now. That's the funny thing about being a "threatening" player, sometimes you actually have to back those threats up with action...

Edited June 16, 2004 by Morph

[AndyC]

if it were that easy tom, do you not think just one defender would have been tried on the line against beckham in the last 10 years?

if you put one man on the wall, the french players could all have stood in the keepers way and obscured his view. it would have been far too easy for a dead ball specialist to simply pick his spot - knowing the keeper would be totally unsighted.

[Morph]

if you put one man on the wall, the french players could all have stood in the keepers way and obscured his view. it would have been far too easy for a dead ball specialist to simply pick his spot - knowing the keeper would be totally unsighted.

The problem is that James arranged his defenders then stood slap bang in the middle of the goal (the one place Zidane wasn't going to put the ball), with his view obscured by the wall in front of him. Seems logical that he should have either A: put a man on the near post, trusting him to be there if Zidane put the ball round the wall and allowing James to cover the far post if ZZ went up and over, or B: positioned himself more towards the near post to cover the shot round the wall and hope the wall did it's job if Zidane tried to shoot over the top of it. In the end he did neither, and it cost us a goal.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Morph

[AndyC]

if you put one man on the wall, the french players could all have stood in the keepers way and obscured his view. it would have been far too easy for a dead ball specialist to simply pick his spot - knowing the keeper would be totally unsighted.

The problem is that James arranged his defenders then stood slap bang in the middle of the goal (the one place Zidane wasn't going to put the ball), with his view obscured by the wall in front of him. Seems logical that he should have either A: put a man on the near post, trusting him to be there if Zidane put the ball round the wall and allowing James to cover the far post if ZZ went up and over, or B: positioned himself more towards the near post to cover the shot round the wall and hope the wall did it's job if Zidane tried to shoot over the top of it. In the end he did neither, and it cost us a goal.

i thought the goal went into the far post!

shows how good a view I had!

in any case - you simply can't have a man on the line, for all the reasons i said above

[Morph]

Near and far posts being relative (perhaps I should have said "covered" and "uncovered" posts). I still don't see your point about putting a man on the line, how does this in any way block the keepers view?

[Lathund]

Near and far posts being relative (perhaps I should have said "covered" and "uncovered" posts). I still don't see your point about putting a man on the line, how does this in any way block the keepers view?

It allows the opponents to move players, who would otherwise be offside, forward and stand as close to the goalkeeper as they want to.

Now the new offside rule might mean that they wouldn't be offside if they stood with the keeper and with no defender on the post, but if the ball rebounds and one of those players score, it will be disallowed. And why take that chance when you might as well run towards the goal instead?