[Archived] Group C

[rover6]

Disagree, now we'll see a tournament without some of the best individual players in the world, such as Nesta, Cassano, Cannavaro, Del Piero, TOTTI, Fiore etc., replaced with boring, boring Dahl Tomasson... feel sorry for Italy, they deserved better.

That is total nonsene, Italy are horrible to watch. They have big name players - so what? They don't produce anything, there's only so much pleasure I get from seeing a name on a shirt, after that I need to see good football.

Absolute prattle. I heard Andy Townsend saying something similar after the game and had to turn the telly off to avoid something nasty happening to it.

It is SOOO cliche and trite to say Italy are boring or horrible to watch. And it may have been true in the past with their catenaccio etc.

But please, take the Italian team that competed in this tournament on its OWN merits. They played 3 forwards and played the most complete football of the tournament in the first half against Sweden.

It just so happened that in the other matches, Bulgaria and Denmark, they were out-fought and out-played. But still they leave the tournament unbeaten and with players like Cassano and Zambrotta, hope for the future.

I'm not saying they deserved to stay in the tournament. (Although, I did feel sorry for Cassano at the end because he's been a real highlight of the championships). However, no way were they boring or horrible to watch.

[bellamy11]

But please, take the Italian team that competed in this tournament on its OWN merits. They played 3 forwards and played the most complete football of the tournament in the first half against Sweden.

I did this. The number of forwards they played isn't a factor for me. One was the woeful Christian Vieri, who looked about as world class as I do on the park. Another was Del Piero - a shadow of his former self. They wouldn't have looked any worse with Ciccio himself playing up front instead.

The only plus point was Cassano. But even he was overshadowed by Tomasson and Larsson. There's no doubting they deserved to go out. 45 minutes of good football about of 270 just isn't enough. They only scored three goals all tournament, and when Sweden were there for the taking they took the negative option of trying to shut up shop.

I won't miss them. Judging them by their own merits in this tournament, I'm glad the boring wastes of time are gone.

[bazza]

Perhaps a "who can gob the furthest" contest???

No. Italy would win every time

[roversWASmylife]

Perhaps a "who can gob the furthest" contest???

No. Italy would win every time

Could Frank Rjikard be the ref for it?

[herbergeehh]

I think we have a Norwegian here, who's jealous that two of his neighbouring countries have both gone through.

No, not really, couldn't care less to be honest. I hope Sweden can keep it going, because I like a lot of their players. But I haven't got the same attitude towards the Danes, I do hope that Czechs beat them.

[ABBEY]

Oh and when you all have an Italian girlfriend...you'll agree with me too

I have a wife from Preston doesnt mean I shout for Nob End!"!!!

[Al]

Poor sods. Italy are the Manchester United of Europe. Think they have a divine right to win everything.

[herbergeehh]

Didn't bother to read through all the bash-Italy posts here, so I just expect that most of them made fun of my first one on page one..

I can understand why a lot of you don't like Italy, and I wasn't trying to make you like them either. I'm just saying, I like watching Italy, I like a lot of their players, and I don't really like Denmark that much. Sure, Gravesen has been good this two weeks, and sure the wingers are quick - but there's no Zlatan, there's no Totti, there's no Rooney for that matter..

I did see Tomassons first goal against Sweden, and it was a beautiful one. Still, I don't like him very much, he's poor when it comes to one-on-one situations, and he (except this one goal) mostly scores tap-ins and a few with his head now and then. Besides, he plays for Milan, don't like them much either..

Gattuso of course, but not Tomasson..

Conclusion: I want players who can make it happen, and Italy has got a lot of them. Also, even though Totti made a fool of himself against Denmark, Italy's footballers are not cheaters and spitters. There's barstewards (use your imagination) in England aswell.

[Dr Rich]

there's no Totti

You mean there's no one to stand in the middle of the park looking bored, do nothing all game except blast a couple of free-kicks wide, try to injure the opposition and get banned for being a petty vindictive little boy? Damn, no way I'm watching the Dane's now...

Also, even though Totti made a fool of himself against Denmark, Italy's footballers are not cheaters and spitters

Well at least one of them is...

[tchocky]

Whats with all the Italy bashing? I have read of ONE player that has whinged about match fixing, ONE player was dirty, and the criticism of their play is over the top IMO. The fact is they had the best team and the best players in the group, but could not turn it on sufficiently to progress, much the same as Spain.

Then why the need to make them scapegoats? (I guess it's the English mentality of always finding one to chuck the blame at)

[Tom Pringle]

The fact is they had the best team and the best players in the group

No they didn't.

If they did, they wouldn't be out.

[roversWASmylife]

The fact is they had the best team and the best players in the group

No they didn't.

If they did, they wouldn't be out.

How can they?

I’ve always said that Italy have got a group of big named stars who are very talented.

But they have failed to play like a team. These competitions are for countries that play well as a team together.

The Italians have played for themselves and not as a team. Teams like the Czech Republic do have some very good international star players, but the reason to success is that they have played as a team and that’s what has got them through.

[Gareth]

Anyone who didn't feel a bit sorry for Italy as they celebrated and then realised they were actually out must have a heart of stone.

Guess that includes me then!

Biggest laugh of the tournament when the goal-scorer ran to the bench, only for his smile to turn to horror when he found out!

I've no sympathy whatsoever for teams who insist on trying to bore the opposition & the fans to death by sitting on a 1-0 lead...

Italy were a poor team for the 1st 2 1/2 games & so are out on merit

Edited June 23, 2004 by Gareth

[Eddie]

When I said it was a shame Italy was out as they were Italy I admitted that many would not like this. My point was, despite the fact that they have not played the best football at the tournament so far, with that being an understatement, they are Italy. Like it or not, as an English supporter, I think I would enjoy England winning the tournament by beating teams like Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal than the likes of Greece, Denmark and Sweden. This is taking nothing away from those teams, they have made it there on merit, and I'm not saying that your history or your size should in any way allow you to progress to the next stage. I was merely saying, I would like to see the "best" teams left in the tournament. Italy didn't deserve to go through, though I think many on here are saying that they played much worse than they did. I will stand by my point that had they taken more of the chances that they had in the Denmark and Sweden games than we would now be considering them one of the potential threats in the tournament, having said this, they failed to take their chances, and I'm not saying that this is unlucky or anything, it is simply part of football. I said exactly the same thing this year in the Champions League, and I thought exactly the same thing during the last World Cup. I like to see the "big" teams play each other, though I do expect that they will play the best football when they did this, Italy have failed to live up to pre-tournament expectations of performance and results. I would like to point out though, lets just say France hadn't had such a good final 3 minutes against England, Mornar had taken his chance for Croatia, and Trezeguet's goal had been ruled out for handball, they would look very similar to Italy wouldn't they? Now are any of you saying that perhaps France doesn't deserve to be where they are? At the end of the day, Italy came very close to scoring goals that would have changed many of your opinions about them, I'm not an Italian supporter, I just find this interesting from a footballing perspective.

Edit: Oh and I suppose that English supporters wouldn't know what it's like to watch a team that sits on 1-0 leads, or do they remember England's tactics after the 38th minute of the France game?

And I do apologise in advance for any of those who see my opinions and posts as "crap"

Edited June 23, 2004 by Eddie

[American]

Sweden is a top seed aren't they? Yeah, they'd be a cakewalk....

[Eddie]

I wasn't saying that any of those teams would be a cakewalk. Though I will stand by my point that if all of those teams played at their best, Italy would be the best of the lot, they haven't done so and so didn't go through. I would have loved to have seen those Italian players playing the sort of football they could, because on their day they are a match for any team in the world, I don't think they same can be said for Greece, Denmark or Sweden (at least not when it is the other teams day as well if you see what I mean)

[bellamy11]

For the benefit of those who would actually like to read Eddie's post rather than stare at a big, square block of text:

When I said it was a shame Italy was out as they were Italy I admitted that many would not like this. My point was, despite the fact that they have not played the best football at the tournament so far, with that being an understatement, they are Italy.

Like it or not, as an English supporter, I think I would enjoy England winning the tournament by beating teams like Italy, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal than the likes of Greece, Denmark and Sweden.

This is taking nothing away from those teams, they have made it there on merit, and I'm not saying that your history or your size should in any way allow you to progress to the next stage. I was merely saying, I would like to see the "best" teams left in the tournament.

Italy didn't deserve to go through, though I think many on here are saying that they played much worse than they did. I will stand by my point that had they taken more of the chances that they had in the Denmark and Sweden games than we would now be considering them one of the potential threats in the tournament, having said this, they failed to take their chances, and I'm not saying that this is unlucky or anything, it is simply part of football.

I said exactly the same thing this year in the Champions League, and I thought exactly the same thing during the last World Cup. I like to see the "big" teams play each other, though I do expect that they will play the best football when they did this, Italy have failed to live up to pre-tournament expectations of performance and results.

I would like to point out though, lets just say France hadn't had such a good final 3 minutes against England, Mornar had taken his chance for Croatia, and Trezeguet's goal had been ruled out for handball, they would look very similar to Italy wouldn't they? Now are any of you saying that perhaps France doesn't deserve to be where they are?

At the end of the day, Italy came very close to scoring goals that would have changed many of your opinions about them, I'm not an Italian supporter, I just find this interesting from a footballing perspective.

Oh and I suppose that English supporters wouldn't know what it's like to watch a team that sits on 1-0 leads, or do they remember England's tactics after the 38th minute of the France game?

And I do apologise in advance for any of those who see my opinions and posts as "crap"

[Eddie]

Thanky you Bellamy, I'll make sure to seperate all of my posts into paragraphs in the future

[Modi]

I would like to see the "best" teams left in the tournament. Italy didn't deserve to go through

Maybe I need a lot more alcohol to understand how those two sentences fit together.

[Eddie]

I was saying "best" as a reference to the teams who would be considered the best in world football, rather than those who were winning matches at the tournament at the moment. I know this doesnt really please anyone, having said this, I'm not exactly sure why Denmark and Sweden are considered to have done so much better as the results the 3 teams had are exactly the same.

Basically my point was, it is a shame that Italy have not progressed, as I would have loved to see them in the latter stages of the tournament playing the sort of football they are capable of. However, as they failed to do this in the group stage, the fact that they have not gone through is totally justified.

I would simply have preferred to see matches between teams like England/Italy/Portugal/France/etc... than the likes of Denmark and Sweden. It's the same reason we like playing Manchester United and Arsenal, and it's the same reason why it always feels better to beat likes of United and Arsenal than it does to beat teams like Spurs or Portsmouth.

[herbergeehh]

No, Dr.Rich, when I say there's no Totti, I mean there is no worldclass player in a free role behind the strikers to make brilliant passes and neat flickons, which Totti has done in every match this season for Roma. He's just one of the top three players in the world in his position, the two others are Ronaldinho and Zidane. I don't really care whether you anti-Italians agree, I just state my opinion- plus the opinion that most people who's watched Serie A shares.

The fact that he failed to handle the pressure on his shoulders is a weakness, and spitting and nearly chopping off Rene Henriksens leg is not something I usually approve of.. actually, I don't approve it this time either!

But, he's still a fantastic ballplayer, probably the most complete forward in the whole world IMO. He almost scored as many goals as Shevchenko this season, I'd say that's pretty amazing for a playmaker.

Agree with Rover6 actually, great post!

The catenaccio days are over, can't believe you people nagging about defensive Italy, even though England has played all three matches with 8 men plus James in defence the last half hour. Italy did that once, against Sweden, and Zlatan scored.

Cassano and Del Piero has been very good in attack for them after Totti's suspension, and Zambrotta has, as you mention Rover6, been brilliant at leftback, supplying a lot of good crosses from the touchline. Also, players like Pirlo and Gilardino, who wasn't included this year for some reason, has a lot to offer a side, and will become instrumental for Italy in the future.

[Eddie]

Wish someone would agree with me! In the end it looks like I've created a thread where people are starting to support Rover6! Dear God...

[herbergeehh]

Yeah, I forgot to say that Buffon and that suit from the Italian Football Association (or something similar..) is being ridiculous, really disappointed in Buffon especially. Sure, it's tough to be knocked out on a 2-2 draw, but he should not have said anything to the media about it - that's just unprofessional behaviour. Too bad, the two top players making themselves laughing stock, Totti and Buffon!

But, as mentioned in the post above, Italy will come back, WC 2006 should be about perfect for the team - Del Piero, Vieri and perhaps Panucci out - Gilardino, De Rossi, Ferrari, Bonera and quite a few more coming through with class.

Btw, I think it said somewhere that Totti donates the money he MIGHT get from his lawsuit to charity, probably UNICEF then, since he's a goodwill ambassador there.. (See Totti-thread, and forget the greed-thingy..)

[herbergeehh]

Wish someone would agree with me! In the end it looks like I've created a thread where people are starting to support Rover6! Dear God...

I do agree with some parts of your posts. Congrats!

I also think it's a shame that Italy didn't go through to the next round, because I think they're a side that entertains with good individual players and offensive play. (the catanaccio days are over, even though they played defensively in the 60's, they actually DO attack more than most countries now)

They have a great defence, particularly the three to the left, Panucci is quite average. Probably the best defence in Europe, I do think that this is some of the reason why people think they still play defensively. They DO attack, it's just that Cannavaro and Nesta is so good they rarely concede goals..

But, as you say, since they didn't make it to the next round, they're not good enough. Simple as that.

[Lathund]

The table doesn't lie. The teams in first and second place in the groups deserved to go through, simply because they did. Big names in a lineup means nothing, football is a TEAM game. Hell, we (Sweden) have maybe 3 players who are considered "world class" (A loose definition) and that's Ljungberg, Zlatan and Larson. Italy could field 11 players like that. But we are a better team than 90%+ of all national teams. Look at where our players ply their trade... four in England, but not a single player in Germany, Spain or Italy. Several of them in the Swedish league, which haven't even had a club in the CL groupstages since 2000. Italy, Denmark and even Bulgaria outmatches us player for player, but yet we won the group. Just like we did in 2002 in the "group of death". But again, it's a TEAM game.

I'm sick and tired of all the BS about how the "big" teams have some divine right to go through, and how it would feel sooo much better to beat Italy or whatever. Why would it feel better to beat a worse team? We may not be glamorous, we may not be a big name but we're a damn hard team to beat. You can't judge a team on how hyped their players are in the media, you have to judge them on their results.

And I know I keep on saying this, but I can't believe how you can take a victory against Sweden for granted. You haven't beaten us since 1968. That's TEN games without a win, and we're a lot better now than the last time we met.

And btw, I don't hate England or anything, but oh how I laughed when Zidane scored that penalty I love it when teams who take the lead are stupid enough to sit back and expect to make it, and then fail. Will people never learn???

Tommy Söderberg said, early on in his time as our manager, that we should keep on fighting "ända in i kaklet". Which I can't really translate well, but its "all the way into the tiles?(The material that the "walls" of a swimming pool are made of anyway), a metaphor for never giving up. And we never, ever do. Like vs Turkey away in the WC 2002 qualifiers. 0-1 down after 87 minutes, 2-1 up at the final whistle. Vs Denmark and Italy in this tournament. Like our national team constantly does in football, hockey (From 1-5 to 6-5 vs Finland), handball and so on. And that's what makes me proud of my national team, that's why we deserve all the "luck" we get. There is, IMO, no other team with the same never say die attitude, with the same team spirit and with the comittment. We don't have the skill of most other teams, but I honestly don't give a ****. Constantly winning/drawing games at the last minute isn't luck.

Anyway, I've got a bad cold and it's 3am, I shouldn't be writing posts in this state so apologies in advance if it's really stupid... but it looks fine, if a bit patriotic and sobby, to me right now.

Edited June 24, 2004 by Lathund