Agree. What we’d want/expect is different to what players are worth. A recent championship full back to premier league club was Joe Bryan - 6m. If we sold Nyambe for a penny less, I’d be frustrated.

Important element and question to consider when looking at what 10m can achieve - how much would we sell our best players for? Would anyone be happy if we sold Dack and Lenihan for less than 10m each? I wouldn’t. I also wouldn’t be impressed if we sold Nyambe or Raya for less than 7/8m

Agree that we have some experience at this level (although most recent second tier exp for mant of those is relegation), we also had Raya, Lenihan, Bell, Rothwell and Reed all on the pitch for those crazy last few minutes. No disputing they could’ve reacted better, and I doubt the likes of Allardyce would have our team regularly capitulating like that. Thus I don’t think this particular issue is solely down to personnel. I think it’s a lack of confidence and experience for dealing with those situations. There is no sole reason for that in my opinion, just a mixture of issues with experience, calmness, confidence and leadership on the pitch.

As others say - incredible how I can watch and think one thing and then read the exact opposite. I was one of Evans biggest critics, but since returning early 2018 - he’s worked as hard as anyone, and has probably covered the most grass. He offers a lot to the team at the minute for me. I’d have to throw a spanner in the works and say I prefer Rodwell to all of them though, he has such natural technique/passing and he is far better in the air - a key prerequisite for defensive midfield.

Never got anywhere near the same level out of him though.

Where he lacks that final ball quality at times, he makes it up in sheer effort and determination. Sorely missed.

That’s subjective though, I don’t think he has had enough time on the pitch for me to say he has poor technique or no pace.

Completely dependent on player. Age, expense, position, wage, injuries etc - all big factors.

I never said that once, I just don’t assume like the second paragraph. I don’t think he’s crap either, or poor - I actually think he’s done ok to say coming on as a sub out of position has been his main cameo, and he hasn’t started a league game in his preferred position because Graham is playing well. To early to judge or criticise anyway.

I think it’s probably more likely because Graham is playing well, the system with one forward hasn’t changed, he has looked raw in some cameos and for the “wide attacking” positions, Armstrong, Bennett, Conway Rothwell and Palmer are in front in the pecking order. If you prefer to think it’s some sort of dodgy deal, then you go for that - no need to drag me into it.

Raya, Lenihan, Bell, Rothwell, and Reed all on the pitch for those two minutes - I counted an individual error from 2 of those 5 in the last 90 seconds of the game. Thats not leadership, it’s decision making. Experience, confidence - as EA said “Bottle”..! We agree on some parts about needing more guile in the middle - and definitley on the panic but I just don’t think the immediate solution is to change manager. Same here, and that’s not because we have the best players either - that’s how close the players/manager are from achieving something. Yesterday was the epitome of that. I’d feel a lot differently about this season if we had similar points but never even looked capable of more!

I don’t think it’s fitness, but definitley on bottle; Experience, nasty streak, calmness, mental toughness, I agree with. I think that’s down to the youth of our first team more than tactics/approach. A nasty and experienced, preferably massive and fast (don’t ask much...) centre half in January would I would “go next”

No, it’s called seeing games out. I personally don’t think worrying about a young team developing the experience and confidence to manage those situations is as bad as the most probable alternatives at this point.

Does it occur to you that to dropping so many points from winning positions, also requires the tactics/performance to get into a winning position?

You aren’t that stupid mate, you know very well that changing manager is the point.

Edited a lot of assumption out. One player signed for a decent fee and thus we should expect to be play offs, yet you think we need a total rebuild... those expectations don’t make sense. Changing the manager changes the entire philosophy of the club. It’s a huge decision. If we hired someone else, if 12 months down the line we are in the same position, you’d say the same again. It’ll never dawn on you the reason why. Call it stability 2. I call it Memory loss 2.

This thread asked “where do we go from here” directly after the Leeds game, which suggests it’s a question in reaction to a game. If you or the thread is asking me “are we doing well enough this season so far”, the answer is overall is yes but could be better. As I said, expectations need reigning in. @Stuart See above.

Always best not to post in reaction to a game like that. For me the reactive “Mowbray out” all over social media is equally as painful to read as watching Lenihan and Bell tumble over their own players immediately after the kick off at 2-1, and then watching Rothwell’s poor clearance, then nobody try to put a head in the way with 30 seconds left to go. Even after that insane two minutes, we aren’t far off in my opinion, and I think the notion that we might steal a victory at the league leaders absolutely panicked our lads. It’s a constant theme. No wonder we are nervous in them scenarios. Leeds however had a poor afternoon - but they are top for a reason - did the same to Villa a week ago. The performance overall was good though IMO second half especially- but we didn’t expect to go to leeds and control the game did we? The changes worked- Rodwell looked assured and played a calm and confident role - the 5atb formation (when we pushed up) stopped leeds from playing out on the deck. I thought all substitutes had a positive effect, Rothwell for his running (despite a couple of mistakes) and Reed / Smallwood brought so much energy on. Someone mentioned a better leader/more nasty centreback needed. I think these games we’ve thrown away show that should be the next acquisition.

Read the sentence before

My own personal answer to the thread topic; Our expectations need to change, and our opinion of players/manager/staff shouldn’t be based on one or two games against the best teams in this league. The time for big decisions is a long way off.

Detested and had questionable motives.. Any comparison shows a reactive, absense of sense, ignorance of memory and complete lack of respect. Even under Lambert and Bowyer, we had arguably more suitable championship squads- but both (despite better motives) never managed to build any consistency in our results. Tony (imo) needs time to attempt the same at this level, not half a season. The lack of experience in our squad has led to issues with concentration, calmness and confidence when in good positions like yesterday. That to me shows (at least) that we aren’t too far away. Can TM change those “shit the bed” moments? I personally think he will.

Rodwell in for Smallwood, think that might be a good move since the little possession we will have needs to be better utilised. Definitley will miss Ritchie’s effort and energy, but Jack is a far better passer! Two up front with Dack in behind is the way I’d go too.

Yea, just like last time we played Leeds... oh wait!... Seriously though, tough game today. If we aren’t at our best, make a few mistakes or don’t take our chances - we won’t get near them. Hopefully, we will get in their face for set pieces again, crowding the box and keeper for corners, because it worked last time. As for formation, I don’t expect it to change - however the fitness of Mulgrew and Reed is probably the biggest indicator of success for us today. Come on you blues.

1 minute 35 seconds if you want to skip the abject defending... Nice movement, outside of boot strike, cool finish. No more offside than Pukki on Saturday

Merry Christmas lads!!