You can never write them off. A bit like the Germans, even when their team doesn't seem that strong, they understand the game, the strategy and their jobs on the pitch and they stay focussed. England are missing these elements. We really should consider a foreign coach again, even though Chaddy will have an aneurysm.

I wasn't talking about the 'morality' of it, just the reality of it. I don't think multimillion pound clubs operate an ethnic discrimination policy, and nor should they. As long as it's within the rules, clubs should find the best young talent they can, regardless of where it's from. I'm sure you weren't complaining when Duff broke through.

Everybody on this board and their dogs already knew this without you needing to say it Chaddy. We could release our entire senior squad on frees and you still wouldn't think we're going down. I can say with absolute certainty and without needing to ask you, that the last three times we went down, you thought we wouldn't go down.

The training regimes shouldn't really matter much in theory. Talented Scottish youngsters should be getting picked up by English sides who have the resources to develop them. The reason must go well beyond that. Perhaps the English clubs are looking further afield whereas they used to look more to Scotland, but that doesn't seem to have affected the England side. English clubs probably have better developed scouting in England than in Scotland but I doubt it's by orders of magnitude. What you say about 8 Celtic starlets going to better academies should be a positive for developing Scotland internationals, but you don't seem to think it is?

As far as I can see, Grealish never played for the Irish senior side. In fact it seems he repeatedly rejected the offer to do so well before he got his England callup. Rice played in three friendlies. I'd say it's pretty clear these very much English lads only played youth and senior football for Ireland because they didn't know if they were going to get to play for England. I doubt anywhere near as much work on their development was done at Irish youth level as it was at their English clubs. Honestly, no offence but I don't think you're in any position to lament it (I know you said you're not complaining), although I get why you'd wish it was different. These lads were only even available through a bit of a back door clause, the same clause that has allowed a lot of definitely English lads to play for you and improve your side. At the end of the day, if someone is English and has Irish grandparents, the only way you're going to get them playing for you is if they don't have enough faith they'll be able to play for England. And that works well for those players and for the ROI team. I can't think of any examples where it has gone the other way, and someone who is clearly Irish but has an English parent or grandparent has gone to play for England. The system works very well for you with no real downsides. It's not the reason your international side is poor, you already identified those reasons (plus small population). You did have a nice patch in the 00s wasn't it? With Keane, Duff, Given. All players developed in England, two of them at Rovers actually. Maybe those days will come again at some point, the Irish can clearly produce good players, but Ireland really needs to work on popularising their domestic league and strengthening development infrastructure. Kane and Rooney are just two more examples of very much English players. Of course they chose England. Even if Ireland were as good as us I'm sure they'd have chosen England. Just the fact they could have played for Ireland doesn't mean you have any entitlement to them. Conversely I could point out how Bale could have played for England, and I was going to say Giggs too, but apparently he was never eligible (think he would be under current rules though). One or two of them in what is traditionally our weakest position and England might have actually won something!

Didn't he only sign his deal here like a week ago?

You're putting words in my mouth - I absolutely do think the squad needs major surgery. But if you're shocked by something that happens every year here, and has happened at most clubs in the league this year, you're very, very easily shocked. Like you, I think we will go down. Because I fully believe we won't rebuild the squad as much as is needed, so I'm not shocked here whatsoever.

No you're thinking of Tyler Morton games.

This is a good post but your examples of Rice and Grealish are strange ones to pick given your other points. Yes they have Irish heritage and played in the ROI youth teams first, but they were neither born nor developed in Ireland. They'd only qualify through grandparents, so it has nothing to do with Ireland's domestic league etc. They didn't 'come through' in Ireland.

Again it's not shocking in the context of Venkys time at the club, anyone still shocked that we aren't doing early business isn't paying attention or has memory loss.

Ah the list I had was from Sky Sports, Coventry only had one incoming on there, but looks like it was last updated a week ago. Alright there might be more than 10 clubs who have signed someone now! (Technically, we have signed someone for money but I think it's quite clear they're seen as joining the U21s initially...then again so was Dolan)

Btw only one team in the league, QPR, has brought in 3+ players like Chaddy wanted us to do by this point. They've brought in four freebies. (They've also released 8, we've released 4...ours were nowhere near the first team, but I know at least Dozzell and Adomah played in theirs) Edit - my source was a week out of date, Coventry and possibly others have reached the 3+ incomings now

By shocking and inexcusable, do you mean pretty much par for the course across the league? 14 out of the 24 clubs in the Championship have yet to bring anyone in. Of the 10 that have brought someone in, only 4 of those have brought more than one player. The very last thing it is, is shocking. Apart from last summer I can't remember any summer window under Venkys where we had brought any first teamers in at this stage. There probably are a couple I'm forgetting, but most seasons we've done nothing at this point. If you're shocked by this, you haven't been paying attention. Edit - looks like my list was a week old, those numbers may not be totally accurate anymore

I'm not familiar enough with their normal lineup but I don't think so. Maybe one or two, I dunno, but they still had Rudiger, Havertz, Musiala, Kroos, Neuer, Wirtz, Gundogan... They got a late equaliser though.

I seem to be the only one on here watching it rather than what I considered a very uninspiring looking Scotland fixture, but the Swiss are showing the Germans are certainly touchable.

Outside of my own team, that's absolutely the main basis for why I like or dislike other teams. Bolton, Burnley, Preston, Manure, City, Brum...their fans are or have shown themselves to be arrogant pricks so I dislike them all.

I'd love to take the same approach. But the bitterness all of those nations (except for half of NI) seem to have against us makes it impossible for me to support them. If they ever get the bees out their bonnets I'll absolutely stick up for them. Until then I just mildly want them to lose, but don't particularly care.

The Swiss are playing well against Germany.

Just a touch more recent that...there are still people living who experienced that, and plenty more who heard the direct experiences of their parents. Bit different to being mad about one dude who died over 700 years ago and wasn't actually as good a guy as a (fantastic) Hollywood film made out.

Dolan looks motivated. Doesn't look like everyone is back yet. Didn't see Szmodics there. Seems like maybe half or less of the squad.

Dunno, we can look at and be interested in Mbappe, Messi and Neymar if we want. We routinely look at all sorts of players we're not going to sign and know we can't afford.

I've seen some mentions in this thread that we should play a high press. Don't set yourself up for a fall, he has no intentions of playing it. I watched enough of his interview after the Denmark game to know that. He said something like we don't have the players to play a high press. Which I can only assume is because he has no intention of dropping Kane.

Christ, I didn't realise they had to get that close to be interfering...

I can't imagine a universe in which I'd rather have Lee Carsley manage England than Klopp. But to each their own I guess.

Opinions should always have the potential for change btw, nobody is right all the time. Refusing to change an opinion doesn't make you right, it just makes you stubborn. The reason I drew up the hypothetical is to see what you value more - the nationality of the coach, or success for the national team. If you're saying that the nationality of the coach is more important, then we don't need to do the hypothetical. But it's not a very sensible stance to take IMO. I just want a trophy after all this time without one. As long as we aren't cheating I don't care how we get it. Side note, an English manager has never won the Premier League. Which of course has been the top tier of English football since 1992. No English manager has won the English top tier for over 32 years. Think about that. Our managers just aren't very good. Even Scottish managers have won it, Ferguson and Dalglish off the top of my head. Btw the English managers you suggested, I'd take Howe who I think is a good manager. No interest in the others.