That may well be true Mattyblue but it is far from the real issue. I've just skimmed through twelve pages of posts since I last visited the MB. The discussion hasn't changed with all the emphasis being on £3 when this could not be further from the nub of the problem. Personally I think the surcharge makes sense from a club perspective, I've explained why. Where the club went wrong was how this was presented to fans. It should have been matchday ticket is £xxx which is then discounted by £3 for early purchase. The club has lost in the region of 10,000 paying fans, emphasis on paying. My view is the chance of 80-90% of those returning is slim. Like everyone discussing the topic I can only offer my own experience and anecdotal evidence. I've raised these points before, they are ignored in favour of criticising those who try to understand the club's approach to the surcharge. I'll try again. In the mid 90s to early 00s period 25-30 people from my village went to Ewood. The cross section was parents, usually fathers, with children. I didn't know a single adult who went without a child. The ratio was probably one adult to two children - myself I took four kids. Of those 25-30 only three, myself and two sons, continue to attend. One family has left the village but I happen to know only the parents still attend. Supporting Rovers at the time was easy, kids wanted to watch football, tickets were cheap and available and you could go when your Utd supporting mates couldn't. All the kids were Rovers and their parents were happy to be fans and to take them. Families mature, all the children I'm talking about have left the area, and the parents have slowly lost interest and moved on to other things as the pressure to take the children has gone. This aspect of course not helped by everything else which has occured in Venkys reign. To my knowledge 75% of fans in my little village have stopped attending but would still call themselves Rovers. All were ST holders. How to tackle those missing 75%?? It's extraordinarily difficult but first the club needs to understand why people have stopped and what would attract them back. Most of these lapsed fans won't be aware of special offers, probably not the surcharge or even the price of a ticket because the club has no real way of communicating with them. It is simply very, very difficult to market to customers these days because people consume media in a vastly different manner to 10 years ago. One thing I can say with absolute certainty is those I know who have stopped would buy in advance and if they didn't a £3 surcharge would not be a barrier. Attracting these very casual fans to Ewood is the answer, proving to them the real experience is far better than the remote one from the armchair. The solution to this comes from only one place - on the pitch in the Premier League. While things have been going extremely well at Ewood this last couple of years it's not enough to put bums on seats. I also know another wide group of fans who rarely go. They are all Rovers fans, they all have mates who attend and have a pretty good idea of what is happening on the playing side but don't attend. How to tackle them? No idea. To try and back this up. @gumbootsand I are similar ages, both retired and don't live in Blackburn though I'm closer than her. I'm guessing from her posts our family situations are similar. Everyone went to Rovers on a Saturday, kids and all, now the kids are gone. I've stuck with it and to a degree this is because my disabled son wants to go and I'm the only person available to take him - if you like I still have the parental pressure. My lad though doesn't like going on wet November Wednesdays but I still attend so its not 100% of my reasons. Retirement brings a fantastic change in life, there is so much to do, the "how I ever found time to work thing" is true. For someone like gumboots, she is still to an extent, engaged but it appears it's going to take one hell of a lot of persuading to change her now well established new life. That's fine, I completely understand it. For the occasional visit the £3 is probably an irritation not a real barrier. Imagine then the fans in gumboots position who are no longer engaged, are not tempted to return for a whole variety of reasons. Then try to imagine the difficulty of engaging with and tempting them back when they are 100% disconnected from the idea of going - despite still being fans. Hope you don't mind me surmising here gumboots. I think I've been fair in my impression gained over a long period of reading your posts. Cheap kids tickets are only a short term answer. They breed a generation of life long Rovers, most of whom leave the area. I simply do not believe the £3 is a major barrier to growing attendances. The difficulty revolves around regaining the paying support of long lapsed fans. The bulk of whom I'd suggest come from outlying areas and in my experience are not impacted by the low income issues which most definetly exist in Blackburn. I'll evidence this by saying prior to Jack's involvement I used to leave home at 2.35 or even 2.40 and would be in the ground by KO. At our peak I used to leave at 2.00 or earlier and often sat in traffic queues from the Hoghton Arms all the way to Ewood. Today I'm back to leaving around 2.30, there is no traffic at all because those outlying supporters don't go. One last little comment. I paid £140 for tickets to a theatre performance this week. It's seven months away. The surcharge was £3.65 per ticket. I was irritated as I felt at £70 there shouldn't be a charge. Did it stop me buying? No.

Chorley also has a great local cinema

That's absolutely correct BUT if, for example, you want to watch Peterloo, which I do, at present it's no longer being shown by Odeon. Vue are only offering tickets at full price coupled with very restrictive viewing times.

Just as an aside it is now very rare for Bolton Vue** to offer a discount to Seniors. It's one of the reasons we now go to Cineworld which does discount and is approximately £3 cheaper. Vue recently were charging £20 for Allelujah when all other local offers were £10-12. ** I don't know about the Blackburn one.

The point I was making, which I'm surprised needs explaining to you, is for years anyone who made positive remarks about the was dismissed for being a Venky lover or similar You asked me to give reasons as to why the surcharge could be justified by the club. I gave you a proper and reasoned response, I feel sure if you read it again you'll be able to see the connection and understand the logic. The main point though from the club's aspect the more accurate the estimate of likely attendance the better everywhere can be staffed accordingly. It's not about detering fans. That's right much of what one reads here is moaning. Try reading the site from another perspective and you will quickly see there is still a very real negative undertone. I've no idea why PNE don't impose a surcharge. Why would i? I have no contact with or interest in the club.

On the ticket point I think that essential for cash turnstiles. It would be very annoying to regularly arrive and find someone in your seat. All other "entertainment" venues do it so I'm sure Rovers could. You are right there are many good points here. It is my belief that the issue runs much deeper than a £3 surcharge and it is an excuse for many. If I was a casual fan I don't think I'd pay match day prices at ANY ground. I stopped going away in the PL when the trip to Anfield cost in excess of £100. I simply cannot justify the expenditure - even when I worked though I could afford it. Perceived value and all that. If I had to shell out £60 every Saturday for me and the lad I doubt we would go. In fact as I live on a pension I couldn't afford it. This is why the ST is such huge value and has to be the key selling point. If I didn't have an ST offer me a special occasion or great price and I'd go BUT those would only be one offs which are useless to the club. Add to that if I didn't know about it I couldn't go and I suspect the majority who know about special deals are already in the ground.

Yes. One of the points I've argued is the club need to address ST holder benefits. If the club wanted to reduce match day prices, as many argue they should, offering free or discounted transport to ST holders would be excellent. I'd expect those coaches to have the same priority as the away support. I'm sick to death of being held in a car park till the away support leaves. I think I'd probably pay for the service.

Other than a few years ago at Wigan it's so long since I paid cash I don't have a feeling about it. I do understand it could be important for some and if demand is sufficient let's do it. There is an issue though. I expect to walk in to my seat. I don't want to have to ask cash payers to move. It can be argued those fans would be directed to a specific area but we all know football fans don't necessarily take note of such requests. Perhaps if people are given a ticket that would overcome the potential problem? I don't know. How would I increase attendance? I would put every possible effort in to STs. This is where the value lays for both club and supporters. It's what approximately £15, there really isn't better value for a ticket at Ewood. I feel the club is poor at attracting more ST holders and especially lapsed fans. I'm not aware of any attempt to determine why people stop and what would convince them to return. I'd implement a survey of some sort. A very direct one - my previous energy supplier actually rang me to discuss why I switched away and asked me what would convince me to return. An energy company!!!!! Understand the problem first and then try to address it. A suggestion was made some time ago of reducing prices each time someone buys a match ticket. The more you attend the less it costs. I thought that was a great idea.

Maybe not in 40 years but given the more recent preference for criticising the club it's a possibility.

Absolutely. Anything is worth trying though I'm not at all sure there will be any significant improvement until we return to the PL. Even that could be doubtful. As I've already said 75% of the people I know locally have stopped and none show any desire to return.

You're absolutely right. There is the problem, an extra 2000 turn up unexpectedly and they can't get a drink, hence the desire to sell advance tickets and understand the likely attendance. The club though are probably working on the basis to staff more areas wouldn't be justified by cost.

I was asked for reasons why the club imposes a surcharge. Of course fans won't be turned away and would pay more. What could happen though is there would be queues at the TO, people might miss kick off, increased demand at kiosks might mean fans can't get served or get food/drink etc. Should this situation occur I think we might then see complaints about how the club is unprepared for large numbers, I missed ten minutes etc. I couldn't get a coffee. I think it's a reasonable assumption to assume those are potential complaints. If the club has a very strong indication of the numbers attending these potential issues can be controlled through staffing etc. By the same token the club can avoid additional costs by not being over-staffed when those 2000 chose not to turn up. There may also be a safety aspect, I simply do not know. I can though appreciate the club may be legally required to provide "x" number of stewards etc. per 100 fans or other given number.

I don't think it's about supply and demand. Cinemas are often empty to the point when I see three people watching, seriously, I wonder why they bother opening the door. Theatres yes often sold out though as an example The Lowry was recently only 80% full when I went and I also received a 50% discount offer to shift tickets for another event there. Trains are full outside of rush hour because tickets are discounted for early purchase. I was though using examples of surcharges we will all encounter at times to demonstrate Rovers are not exclusive in this area. I very, very much doubt removing the surcharge as a trial would add any significant number to the gate. It's quite likely it would be impossible to arrive at any valid analysis as there are too many other variables.

Sorry I don't like good news? I hope you're not serious with this remark? For years anyone with a positive comment to make on here about any aspect of the club has been shot down in flames. A few have tried to remain positive in the face of some of the darkest times the club has seen. I'm putting my view in here because I disagree with the views being expressed, that is, as you have requested, discussion. Do I need to join in commenting on Charlie Mulgrew? No. I know it's positive, I'm delighted.

Certainly I can provide reasons. In terms of day to day running in the club's best interest administratively, financially and logistically to have a strong indication, through advance sales, of the numbers likely to attend. This can impact ticket office staffing, stewarding, concourse kiosks, food orders, minimise pre match queues at the ticket office etc. I'm sure with a bit if thought one could come up with more. Controlling these costs, avoiding food wastage etc. all contribute to a better bottom line. This is how the club will view the surcharge. Waggot for obvious reasons isn't going to publicly state this. I gave you examples of where surcharges are applied. Surcharges are additional payments not necessarily price increases. Surcharge is the word being used here and therefore picking a few examples which enter my head is relevant. Buy a cinema ticket on line - surcharge; concert ticket online - surcharge; theatre ticket online - surcharge; online shopping - meet a minimum order or pay delivery - surcharge. As for car parks - there are Manchester car parks where at the weekend its £5/24 hours in advance - I paid it 3 minutes walk from Piccadilly for the Charlton match - try paying at the exit machine - price increases out of all proportion. I didn't not use the Leeds game as an example of anything - see my response to Matty. I did not say the "surcharge" is conducive getting people in to the ground. Please read what I post, not what you would like to think I have said. The answer to getting more people in to the ground is STs. It always has been and always will be. Yes there will be a few exceptions when unexpected numbers turn out, I'm not thinking of Oxford as that was not typical of anything. I think this engages with your points. I have provided my own arguments and reasons earlier. If I've missed something I'll try to cover it.

It wasn't the Leeds game. I can't remember which. I'll find it when I have time - could be several days. Yes more STs is the answer.

Correct. Rovers are in a better position than for many years and yet people continue to find as many reasons to moan and complain as possible. The real point is huge numbers were never really diehards, they were football fans and supported Rovers. They went often because the kids wanted to go and the club was successful - those people have moved on. I meet them frequently, they always chat about and are interested in Rovers but are more interested in doing other things. In the 90s and early 00s from 1.30 onwards there was a stream of cars leaving my village for Ewood, around 25-30 people. Today there are 3, me and two of my sons. One family moved away but two, sometimes four, of them still go. Roughly speaking that's a 75% loss never to return. All of these fans could easily afford a £3/surcharge. They'll never pay it. If they happen to go once a season, when the kids are home for Christmas, the trip will be planned. Surcharges have very little to do with the reasons thousands have stopped attending.

I know what you're saying Ozz but it's very easy to find such examples and the opposite can also be shown. Just a few weeks ago Rovers had the sixth highest attendance outside the PL in England, possibly the UK I can't quite remember. I mentioned that on the MB. No one was interested. People are always moaning about the club. The ones who particularly make me smile are those who find a new reason every week, never attend and fail to recognise or admit the truth is they've either lost interest or no longer care. In which case why bother getting upset about something that will never impact their lives? Many, many aspects of our lives encounter surcharges on tickets and other services. Concerts, cinema, theatre, rail tickets, car parking, parcel delivery, airline seats, baggage. Rovers are far, far from alone in doing this. Ultimately if someone can afford £27/ticket (whatever it is as I've lost track) they can afford £30. Not going because of this charge is an excuse.

Whoops. Brereton won last week's penalty and, I think, set up Dack today. Four points thanks to the sub. Most said we would go down.

I don't want to Stuart but reading through this thread you can see why I raised it. Too many have the wrong impression of the FF. If I was an FF member right at the front of my mind would be the treatment handed out to fans who make genuine efforts to improve things. Its still happening now. The criticism always comes from those not prepared to get involved.

You keep ignoring the FF is not an elected democratic body. None of these arguments in relation to Pune or the present day apply as there is no claim to represent the fans. I don't understand why you can't grasp this. At what point have I suggested you're an idiot? All I'm saying is people gave up their time and energy and got little thanks for it. Sadly exactly the same thing is happening today.

For me you're quite right many fans would be happy to take the opportunity to go. The costs were met by the club or owners. That wasn't the point. People still had to give up time and energy, probably holiday, to make the trip. Their reward was to have scorn and vitriol poured on both the effort and their personal motivation questioned. This continued for weeks before and months after the event. Hardly an incentive to grab an opportunity to put a fan's view directly to the owners I know one individual who took the whole thing so seriously he spent weeks visiting people at home to discuss the outcomes.

The difficulty we have here, and I'm not trying to be clever, is your mixing language and so reaching the wrong idea, to me, about the FF. I think you misunderstand how and why the FF was set up. The FF is a sounding board for the club's ideas and an opportunity for supporters to comment on club proposals and actions. At the same time the FF members can take forward thoughts and ideas from others. From those I know or have known on the FF I would argue the group is "representative" of a good cross section of fans. However it is a voluntary appointed group. Supporters can't argue against someone's inclusion. As the FF is unelected it cannot claim to "represent" fans - I'd be unhappy if it did.

Yes, that's true but didn't think of the option as I've never used it. I wouldn't though put any reliance in trains through Chorley, we've given up using them as the service has been so unreliable whatever day of the week one travels. I think it's going to take a long time for the train companies to win back passenger confidence despite it not being their fault.

I wonder how many people recall the vitriol which was thrown at the Fans Forum members who gave their time and energy to travel to Pune? Many objected on the basis the FF didn't represent their own or the fans' views particularly because it's an unelected body. The FF is a sounding board for the club with an input by fans putting forward the issues and questions they as individuals feel important. No doubt the FF members take on board views from others but I wouldn't expect any of them to claim some form of representation after past criticism.