Well put Alan, we've been discussing these areas for what, three or four years? You'd think the powers that be would get the message after a while......................we need a hero Which is why Bellamy was so important. I think the damage has been done and I believe it is irrepairable. The last couple of years I've watched many kids from our village leave home for university etc. They all have been die-hard Rovers and still are Rovers fans but is their first stop Ewood Park when they are on holiday? Simply No. I was amazed to discover a lad I have taken to the ground for 11 seasons wasn't going while he was at home. The excitment has died, increasingly I find myself sitting back in the stand thinking "go on then, entertain me." It's a natural reaction to the hype which surrounds the game. I don't believe it can be changed and the boring monstrosity the PL has become will slowly destroy itself. There is simply no excitment left in football, there always used to be a hope of winning, no matter how unrealistic you could dream but today there's nothing.

Can't work up any enthusiasm for this one. Hope the tie is still live on 28/9 but I have a feelin we could go down 3-0 in the first leg

Hmmm seems I qualify for that offer as well. What I'm not clear about is what happens to our e-mail addresses which are all @btinternet.com

Glad you mentioned that den, I was on the point of booking a train to Birmingham for Sunday. I knew the next home game was City but hadn't realised it was on Sunday. It comes to something when an ST holder doesn't know when we are playing. Does anyone know why the UEFA cup games don't show on the official site fixture list? I see Wigan has moved to a Sunday, so out of 11 home games to 30th December we have 4 that are at 3.00pm Saturday KOs. Also just noticed we only have 8 home games in the second half of the season. Poorly balanced, should be 10 and 9, not 11 and 8.

I don't hear anyone ranting over the price of an ST at Ewood but I would flatly refuse to pay £36 to watch, week after week. Very occassionally I might be persuaded to pay that but not on a regular basis. The clubs, the FA and the PL have killed the golden goose, the crowds will not return and we (Blackburn Rovers in particular and the PL in general) are at the beginning of a downward attendance spiral. This may be masked this year by increased capacity at Arsenal and Old Trafford, but it will only be a mask. It's very unlikely we will go away this season, we usually only go once or twice but to be honest I can't be bothered. If an important, exciting, local game comes up in the cup we'd probably go but the PL? I can't see any reason to bother. Worth reading and note the publication date It's all be done to death; KO times, Sky, uncompetitive leagues, prices, player's wages and attitudes. I don't think the clubs realise just how bored and disillusioned fans have become. The PL must be the classic example of how not to run professional sport. It simply isn't the great league the PL would have us believe.

If it was posted on here it will not have been deleted. Have you tried the Rovers Travel Options thread? THIS ONE

That was the first one frpm the press I've read. The second was Neil says the majority. I haven't seen it on TV. I posted before I was just quoting to BBC report here Quite happy to accept I was wrong

Could be, I don't know for sure. The BBC website states:

Ooijer ~ two games, two penalties conceded This lad has a lot to learn. Didn't listen to the commentary today so can't make a remark on the game other than you have to wonder what's happening if we need Brad to save us against Sheffield United. As for Neill.....WTF?

Quite simple Ricky, and this is one area where I would criticise Orange. The whole thing is so very complicated that I am confused and unsure by the product, IMO Orange have been very poor at developing a simple, clear package for some users. To explain. I'm 52 with no formal education in using the technology at my disposal. Everything I know (very little) is self-taught. I'm very good at understanding and being creative about what technology can do for me but very poor at making it do what I want - we pay a software man to do this. My company is streets ahead of the competition in its use of technology, my ideas brought to implementation by people who can write software and understand how to make technology work. So when it comes to Orange, my phone, their offers etc. I don't actually fully understand the product oferring or how it works. Therefore as a consumer I stick with the tried and tested, click this button and it works. This is a mistake most technology companies make; there's huge market ro people like me, happy and comfortable with technology, but who do not comprehend the offer. It's fine marketing all this stuff at younger people but a major failing not to address the older market. I have phone that can sing and dance, the whole thing and I just use it for making calls. This is why I don't use Orange broadband, I'm not aware of it and if I was I'd expect it to be very complex. For the same reason I had real difficulty in buying an MP3 player and have ended up very disillusioned with the Apple product I purchased. Not that I know much about marketing.....................

Thinking about it I was aware of that but didn't consider it. I see the point but suspect there is less chance of this conflict arising with BT. We also use BT braodband across several sites ay work and I cannot recall any problems in the time we have had the service.

We've had BT for perhaps 4 years, not the cheapest but it has been trouble free and, much to surprise, the service has been excellent. I've stuck with BT mainly because they own the phone line and the ISP - I worry about getting in a conflict with the two, each blaming the other. Custome service and tech support has been very good and on the two occassions the router has been misbehaving we've been sent a new one inside 24 hours. Can't fault BT on this. Been with Orange as my mobile contract for 12 years. I can't praise Orange highly enough, I think it's an outstading business. My wife has Orange PAYG and the service level used to be poor in comparison with the contract business, however in recent years this has improved enormously. No idea about their braodband service.

Forgotten!!! Broke my heart and I still remember sitting in that corner quietly weeping at the end. I can never listen to the DC5 again. At £2.5m Rovers have done very, very well. You've paid far too much, probably three times his value, but have got a player with great heart and committment. I think he will do well for you.

BT set a date for turning on the service and it's very difficult to get that moved forward. If you're using BT in any form, that is via their telephone line reagrdless of the provider, that is the root of the problem. I've no idea about the cable based providers.

Not sure I understand Nayef's post but talking of Natwest I'd steer clear myself. Our company banks with Natwest, the nature of our business means we have relatively little dealings with them but when we do it's usually a hassle. Two recent examples: When pin numbers where introduced I entered the number incorrectly which led to immediate card cancellation. With Natwest there is no second chance, one wrong entry and the card is blocked. Had my wallet stolen last July. Phoned all the card providers without any problem. Natwest? Ha! They couldn't find me. Gave them all the usual details, "Sorry sir you don't have an account with us" You can imagine the conversation from there, it took around 20 minutes to trace the account and cancel the card. As for RBS - muppets. My wife had an account, went in to her branch one day to open a high interest savings account and transfer money from an existing account to the new one. "Sorry madam we can't open an account without such and such ID. We need to prove who you are" "But you've just given me cash from my account!" To cut a long conversation short, RBS were happy to allow her to close the account, hand over in excess of £500 but wouldn't open a new account because she didn't have sufficient identity!

I've always been a big David Dunn fan, there were times when he was one of the few players who gave us hope of a brighter future. I'd love to see him play for Rovers again BUT we have to be realistic, since he left has there been any reason to miss him? Frankly no, he's not made any headlines with Big Club. I'm with Tris, if Dunny wants to come home he has to prove himself on the pitch and the club should not make his life comfortable by offering anything other than a pay-as-you-play deal. I'd be very wary of Hughes making this signing, it's about on par with Jeffers - a big risk.

I think you've misunderstood me. First I'm not going, I can't afford it. My only chance of going to an away European tie would be Scotland. You may be right about people's personal circumstances, I won't comment because I only know a few who are going. The point I was trying to make is this trip is a highlight for many. While they will look to travel as cheaply as possible it still involves £000s. Obviously the money is important but the travelling fans put the enjoyment and experience ahead of the cost. This is what we need to achieve at Ewood; a matchday at Ewood needs to be really good entertainment (as the whole event not just the match) so that fans look at the enjoyment first and the money second. At the moment everyone looks at the price and simply says £36 is too much for a game of footie. The club need to make it more than "just a game of footie"

Rang the complaints line, put my case forcibly and got £210 refunded plus £30 for inconvenience Still looking for a new bank though

--> QUOTE(Ste B @ Sep 1 2006, 10:21 ) 441588[/snapback] I disagree, Cost is very high up the list. Which is why theres plenty of independant travellers doing whatever they can to see the match rather than pay the 479 that the club are asking for. Yes of course cost is important but it isn't the over-riding factor. The main point is fans are travelling, minimising cost where possible but still spending £000s for one game because the experience is going to be much higher.

One great example of the experience is happening now. Around 500 fans are making plans for the trip to Salzburg. Their expectations of the whole experience are very high, they've been excited since the draw was made. Yes they are shopping around for cheap flights but ultimately the cost is irrelevant because the feel good factor is there. These fans are going to spend £4-500 just to watch a a game of footie. Makes the point for me. Right product, high expectation, cost is last on the list.

Good and I can answer another of your concerns: If we can agree football is simply a product competing in the leisure industry I believe there some very obvious comparisons and a model for the Rovers to follow. Look at supermarkets, not in the leisure industry as such, and their market positioning. As a consumer I can chose between the big four, the price -led outlets and the quality outlets. I'll use Tesco, Aldi and Booths for my example. As a consumer I want value for money and for my expectations to be met, these two are a crucial combination. For general shopping we visit any of the big four, we have no loyalty. When I go to Tesco my expectation is to purchase everything I need, at a reasonable price, average service level and with a minimum of hassle. Frankly it's a chore and the challenge is for Tesco to make it as pleasant as possible. I rarely visit Aldi but I'm sad enough to receive the bi-weekly special offer e-mail. On occassions this includes real bargains that I want. I then plan to visit Aldi on the first day of the offer. It meets my expecation of cheap price, rubbish service and that I may have to return the product if it doesn't work. Booths - the cream of supermarkets, but really it's an upmarket retailer. Visiting Booths is wonderful. Excellent products, great service, high prices and Booths always exceed my expectations. I'll pay the price Booths demand and feel good about it. The experience is good and the price comes a long way second. The problem in football is the product has not really changed while, for many, the matchday experience has deteriorated. Rovers generally meet my expectations BUT crucially my expectation is low. The experience of visiting any ground is very poor. Those who visit the pub are really saying this is no longer value for money, you don't match my expectations and the pub has actually begun to meet my expectation. Take away football culture and you alienate the customer, if it isn't properly replaced those fans ultimately walk away. The challenge for Rovers is to decide on their market position and work accordingly. Are we going to be Tesco, Aldi or Booths. At present we're Booths on price and Aldi for the rest. If Rovers or any other club continue to charge £36 to watch football they have a mountain to climb in terms of exceeding customer expectations. The match day experience is very poor, improve this and the perceived value increases. While we continue to offer the same product at its current price attendances will continue to decline. I would argue the solution for Rovers is to become the Booths of north-west football. Great experience, great service, real feel good factor. If we can't do that the only answer is to compete on price.

It isn't lowering prices alone that reduces demand and devalues the product. You are right in saying the product becomes devalued but wrong, IMO, in the cause. Product availability coupled with low pricing by multiple retailers is the usual reason. The product I market, bedding plants, has had a maximum retail value of £2.99 for the past twelve years, you can buy it in most major retailers for as little as £1.99 on occassions. Sales for the six months to June 2006 rose by 14% nationaly but DIY sheds increased their market share once again, taking trade from traditional outlets. Without banging on about this the fundamental reason for a static RP for twelve years is widespread availability and the product becoming a Known Value Item. I can only talk authoritively about my market but there are of other examples: TVs, CD players, MP3 players, milk, beer, bread, clothes etc Football is in a strange position. The product has been totally devalued in the past 15 years by Sky (the multiple retailer), in particular, and the media in general through massive over-exposure (i.e increased availability) to the point the product is no longer unique. Once a product reaches this level value drops dramatically. On the other hand costs continue to rise year on year, at present the clubs are attempting to recoup these costs through higher pricing. They will fail now consumers have discovered the products real value; the lowest level being free with every pint of beer purchased in your local. While the PL blindly continues to market itself in this way attendances will continue to decline and fans will not return. My company is more profitable now than ten years ago despite the retail price of our core product remaining static. We simply found ways to cut costs while adding value to our products. Until football takes a realistic approach to both costs and pricing attendances will continue to fall. No industry can survive by expecting to increase its price expotentially. Arguements put forward which revolve around the consumer "paying the going rate" to fund PL status are fundamentally flawed. A product only sells if retail pricing matches the customer's perceived value or the customer does not know the product's true value. The perceived value of a football ticket is way below £36 and therein lays the problem. Football clubs have lost the price war, their only optiion is to reduce costs and find the true retail value of their product. Major clubs with a large fan base will be the last to reflect this but it will happen, there is a limit to the number of replacement sales one can make. Blackburn Rovers have no opportunity for replacement sales, that is our problem.

What is their attitude when you make a genuine mistake Stu?

Hmmmmm.......just got my bank statement showing we exceeded our overdraft limit by £92.47 for two days and incurred £210 of charges. I may have to change my view on this matter...... Just had a major row on the phone and now I'm interested to know of people's recommendations for a new bank. I'm damned if I'll be treated like that when the bank describes my credit record as "excellent for the past 7 years." Suggestions please.

Beautifully put. The Makems must be delighted with the appointment of their new thug, whoops manager.