That was woeful. Terrible substitutions as well. All that was needed was Markanday for Gallagher but instead he brought on the useless Hirst and brought off Dack (who had produced the only genuine moment of quality in the entire 90 mins) and thereby cost any limited momentum we had started to build up.

I'm astounded that anyone expected anything different from Hirst bearing in mind he had a record of 0 from 32 at this level before arriving. And to think there was such a heated debate when he signed about whether a loan with an option to purchase at £5m was a good deal or not for us!!

Couldn't make the game tonight, due to work commitments, would have liked to have gone, and very disappointed that we seemingly treated the game as being such a low priority having done so well to get to this stage in the first place! That said think some of the criticism of JDT is a bit OTT, the other fella spent five years and spunked away countless millions of pounds in transfer fees, loan fees and wages getting us precisely nowhere before leaving us with half a starting X1 by the time he left so I think the current incumbent deserves a bit more time before the latest "project" is automatically deemed a failure. We need a win against Sunderland though to justify the eleven changes last night, a defeat and it will be four extremely bad results out of five either side of the WC break.

And after that........?

That would be beyond bizarre. To the extent there's any fuss over Morton I don't see what it's about at all. I'd describe him as average at best and even that may be extremely kind based on recent performances.

Currently I'm finding it hard to disagree with that line of thinking........the main reason I'm prepared to allow JDT a fair amount of slack however is I would still maintain Mowbray** left us in a world of trouble which would take anyone a couple of seasons to sort out. **(Who MP also loved)

The latter quote is very good. Was it Arsene Wenger? Shankly also came out with another cracker which I can't recall exactly but it was something along the lines of his wife complaining that he'd rather watch Everton than take her out to which he retorted that he'd rather watch Tranmere or Tranmere reserves. No doubt MP will manage to find something in that that offends him as well.

I find that a very strange and extremely tenuous comparison to make but it is your prerogative I suppose in your role as the site's resident contrarian as someone else correctly identified.

⅝ Exactly this. The FA needed someone to pour oil on troubled waters after the Allardyce debacle and that's exactly what they got with Southgate. He never says anything controversial, appears to be good at keeping the players happy in a tournament situation and appears to have created an environment whereby players now enjoy playing for England as opposed to it being a chore. That said we have a squad of very talented young players playing in if not the best certainly the most competitive League in the world and are ranked 5th in the World so we SHOULD be reaching the latter stages of tournaments as a minimum expectation. What we need is someone who can make the difference and get us to overachieve slightly by winning something as opposed to consistently coming up short against decent opposition.

For me it's the other way round. England losing is just "meh - shit happens". Rovers: Well it's like Bill Shankly's quip "Football isn't a matter of life and death ' - it's much more important than that".

I think it's fairly relevant to discuss whether the England manager is an elite level manager chaddy. For me Southgate is just another FA blazer albeit the modern touchy feely PC version for the current age. I think the majority of us would have looked at our World Cup wallcharts prior to the tournament and predicted we would top an extremely weak group, win the last 16 game against either Ecuador or Senegal, then go out against France. And that's exactly what happened. I've just heard a stat that Southgate has played 24 games against teams in the top 10 in the Fifa rankings and won only 4 of them. When push comes to shove he just hasn't got it, he could stay in the job until he was 80 and we still wouldn't win anything under him.

Tend to agree on Mourinho but Southgate's had his chance (three of them) and failed Gav. Would he get a job at a top Premier League Club? Do we want to waste our chance with this talented crop of players like we did with "The Golden Generation?"

You could say that about Dack and Adam Wharton as well but I don't think you can argue against the assertion that all three are extremely talented.

No upside for us in that deal. If they want him they should be told they will have to pay. A lot.

I'm far from convinced this playing it out from the back malarkey creates more goals than it gives away. Even at the World Cup we've seen some of the best sides in the world get themselves into trouble on countless occasions employing the system and conceding quite a few needless goals. For Rovers it's a complete no no. As you say, in olden times it was a cardinal rule that you don't pass the ball square across your own box.

I like JDT and want him to do well but on the other hand the last two performances have been completely unacceptable and this has the potential to go South extremely quickly. I'd like to see some objective reason on the pitch for liking JDT other than the fact he isn't Mowbray. What the hell has happened to Adam Wharton? He hasn't had a look in since penning a long term deal and if yesterday is an example of the level of effort Morton is going to put in for the rest of the season, he might as well fuck off back to Liverpool now.

Someone in the VAR room doesn't like Ecuador. After the goal that was ludicrously ruled out against Qatar they just had another perfectly good goal ruled out imo. The player who diverted the cross n was miles onside, the keeper had already dived the wrong way and the player alleged to be impinging the goalies line of vision never made any movement whatsoever towards the ball. The standard of officiating on and off the field is absolutely abysmal. What about the referee that thought the assault by the Wales keeper wasn't a red? Edit: Deserved equaliser now.

So does the same argument apply to Maguire?

At least the cheating gets are two down now, there was actually more of a case for offside with the second than with the one that was ludicrously ruled out. Ecuador look fairly decent though.

No it wasn't, he was at least a yard onside when the free kick was played into him. Very worrying decision for the integrity of the Tournament going forward. Either the VAR operators don't know the rules or are corrupt.

Not an attractive look when a poster is going round waving imaginary reds in the direction of the moderators. I think the point being made is over the manner of the defeat against our biggest rivals and I think it's a fair stance to take that this is an afternoon for anger over the nature of the performance rather than mere disappointment over the result per se.

Echoing what many others have said but for me the most disappointing thing about today is the fact we never even laid a glove on them. At least have a go - the manager and team just don't seem to have "got" the fact that this is a bit of a special fixture at all. Individually I don't think JDT is picking his best players either. For me the two Wharton's are our best centre half and best midfielder respectively. Dack is also one of our most talented players but off field issues appear to be preventing his selection. Add that to the fact that you're playing Brittain on the wrong side and I think you're making life very difficult for yourself. Still no idea whatsoever how this season is going to end up.

Seven points off 12th.

I know you don't like Dolan but I thought he did ok after he came on. I would have bought Dack on for Gallagher but if you discount him on the basis he is completely out of favour, Dolan should have been the one to come on. Vale I was less impressed with. JDT must see something in training from him every day we're not seeing.

Excellent analysis there, that's exactly how I saw the game.